Can God create a stone He cannot lift?

Qatada · 03-04-2008, 06:40 PM

Asalamu alaikum wr wb

http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...main_cat_id=18

Question: Muslims say that Allah is capable of anything (huwa 'ala kulli shay’in qadeer). Therefore, is Allah, for instance, capable of creating a heavy stone that He will not be able to lift? Knowing that if Allah is capable of creating such a stone, that would make Him incapable of doing one thing (lifting this stone). On the other hand, if He is incapable of creating that kind of stone, that will contradict the Koran where it says He is capable of anything. I don't know how to answer this argument. Your help is needed.

Answered by the Fatwa Department Research Committee - chaired by Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî

This argument is a classic example of sophistry. It is a nonsense argument that merely sounds like it make sense. This type of argument occurs when the sentences work grammatically but have no intelligible meaning, since the meaning conveyed by the sentences is self-contradictory. It is an old philosopher’s trick. The argument looks sensible on the surface, but contains a logical fallacy.

When we talk about lifting a stone, we are merely referring to moving it form one point in space to another. Of course, we cannot doubt that Allah has the power to cause a stone to be in any point in space that He wishes.

We need to understand what the argument is really saying. When someone proposes that “He cannot lift it”, he is essentially proposing that He is incapable of something – in this case of having the stone move to a different point in space. The argument is really only proposing His being capable of being incapable!

Therefore, by removing the words “stone” and “lift” from the argument, we get to the essence of the argument, which we can express as follows:

Muslims say that Allah is capable of all things.

Therefore, is Allah capable of being incapable?

If he is capable of being incapable, then he is incapable of something.

If he is incapable of being incapable, then he is incapable of something.

You see, once we remove the words “lifting a stone” form the argument and get down to its bare bones, it becomes clear to us just what a silly, nonsensical argument it really is.

Abdul-Fattah · 03-05-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Muslims say that Allah is capable of all things.
Therefore, is Allah capable of being incapable?
If he is capable of being incapable, then he is incapable of something.
If he is incapable of being incapable, then he is incapable of something.

From a philosophical p.o.v. the argument does make sense. I wouldn't say this is a "philosopher's trick". The reason of the philosophers is to question the very nature of omnipotence. Does "everything" really mean everything, including the capability of rendering oneself incapable. In fact taking this attitude of "it's all nonsense" could easily backfire. What if the person insists by asking: "Is Allah subhana wa ta'ala incapable of being the most incompasionate?"

This is how I tackle the paradox of omnipotence on my website:

Quote:

The paradox of omnipotence.
Some argue that omnipotence is flawed by definition. A common example question to point this out is:
Can an omnipotent being create a stone that is so heavy the being cannot lift it?
If he cannot create it, then isn't that a flaw in his omnipotence?
If he can create it, but cannot lift it, then isn't that a flaw in his omnipotence?

The answer is very simple: "Yes he can create it; and no it's not a flaw that he cannot lift it.". The problem is choice again. An omnipotent being surely has the potential to lift any stone, but also the potential to wave his own potential by choice! So the reason he cannot lift the stone then is not because the being was never capable of lifting it, but because he chose so. A variation to the question could then be conceived, where the reason for not being able to lift it is better speculated. More precisely, so the characteristics of the stone is not linked directly to the creator, like: Can an omnipotent being create something that is to heavy to lift even for an (other) omnipotent being? Here the question is unreasonable. The questioner is asking for an object with contradicting characteristics. Asking if omnipotence can make the impossible possible. He might just as well have asked, can an omnipotent being create water that isn't wet, or squared circles. At best, the only thing this question could illustrate is that the existence of two omnipotent beings is problematic since the omnipotence of one would include limiting the other's omnipotence and vice versa.

So in short: being capable of being incapable = being capable of choosing not to do something!
Wheter or not Allah subhana wa ta'ala is capable of being the most incompasionate is to hard for me to say. In my limited comprehension I'm inclined to think that he is technically capable, but regardless of his capabilities choses not to; and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.

Qatada · 03-06-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Wheter or not Allah subhana wa ta'ala is capable of being the most incompasionate is to hard for me to say. In my limited comprehension I'm inclined to think that he is technically capable, but regardless of his capabilities choses not to; and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.

Asalamu alaikum wr wb

yeah, we'd simply respond that Allah only does what befits His Majesty. :) Therefore it doesn't befit Him to be unjust, so He wouldn't be unjust etc.

Bassam Zawadi · 03-08-2008, 10:26 PM

This is somewhat related Can God Become Man?

PK_Aali · 03-18-2008, 01:11 PM

I've read this before. MashaAllah its a good laid out explanation.

Sabraan Ya Ummah · 03-19-2008, 03:51 AM

Interesting:) Jazaku-Allah khayr!

Ansar Al-'Adl · 04-19-2008, 03:55 AM

Question: Can God create a stone large enough that even He can't lift?

My Answer:

Atheists attempt to use this question to prove that the concept of omnipotence is self-contradictory. But the problem here is a contradiction in terms. This issue becomes even more clear when we examine a related question: "Can God create an uncreated being?" The problem here is that the questioner has already defined the being to be uncreated and then proceeds to ask for something that contradicts that definition. The problem is in the questioner's terms, not any lack in God's potential. The same is true when asking God to make a circle with four sides. Having already provided a definition of a circle that could never include a four-sided figure, such a question is absurd. Something is certainly self-contradictory here, but it is the questioner's terminology and not the omnipotence of God.

The same is true when we come to the case of create a stone which cannot be lifted. Aside from the problem that we are placing an infinite unrestricted being under the finite restricted laws of our universe, the concept of the stone is self-contradictory. Basically, such a stone could not exist because it is conceptually incoherent. When one asks if God could create such a stone, one would normally identify the properties of such a stone. But here we haven't been given absolute properties, but instead we've been given properties of the stone relative to God's properties. The questioner has identified the potential stone as something so big that God couldn't lift, so even though we already know that there is nothing God cannot lift, they have used that as an attribute for the stone. Automatically, the concept of such a stone is nullified. Now, when they ask could God create such a stone, the answer is no, but that doesn't imply a lack of potential on the part of God. Instead, it reflects the fact that the concept of such a stone is illogical, unreal, inadmissible. It is very similar to asking if God can die. Well, death isn't an ability, its the inability to live. The immortal cannot die because that defies His attribute of immortality. Similarly, the omnipotent cannot create a task that He can't complete because such a task is merely a figment of one's imagination and could not exist.

You're basically asking, if God can do anything, can He make it impossible for himself to do something? The question is illogical and self-contradictory because the argument contradicts the premise. Once you have already established that God can do anything, then that's a set attribute and part of His nature. Therefore, He can do anything that is consistent with His nature, anything that is absolute.

Can God make 1=2? Well if 1=2, then it wouldn't be 1! So the idea is self-contradictory, not God.

The question also reminds me of the idea of what happens when an immovable rock meets an unstoppable force? The two things cannot exist in the same universe. Likewise, if God exists then all things which contradict His attributes are imaginary, non-existant and impossible. They are forever bound to the realm of imagination and cannot be brought into existence.

Shaykh Ibn Abil-'Izz (d. 1389CE) also answered this question in Sharhul Aqeedah Tahawiyyah (p.137), in his discussion of the following verse:

And Allah, over each thing, is omnipotent; all-powerful [al-Baqarah 2:284]

This includes all that is possible. As for what is in intrinsically impossible - such as there being a thing that exists and does not exist at one and the same time - then, this has no reality, nor is its existence conceivable, nor is it termed 'a thing' by agreement of those with intelligence. Included in this category is: [Allah] creating the likes of Himself, making Himself non-existent, and other impossibilites.

This also serves as a reply to the question posed by some: 'Can Allah create a stone that He is unable to lift?' The argument being that if Allah cannot create such a stone, He is not all-powerful; but if He can, then likewise He is not all-powerful. The fallacy of this argument lies in the fact that such an affair is, in itself, impossible and exists only in the minds of certain people. And not all that the mind conjures-up has an existence that is possible, nor is it always termed 'a thing.'

Hopefully that makes the issue clear.

And Allah knows best.

wasalam

Ansar al-'Adl

Aayah · 01-06-2010, 04:58 AM

^ very beneficial explanation for that common question by Atheists, JazakAllah khair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassam Zawadi

This is somewhat related http://www.idawah.com/forum/showthre...?p=414#post414

Can someone check the link above please? it seems that its not directed to the page that it meant to be directed to.

salman · 01-06-2010, 09:12 AM

^link is updated ... it is referring to Can God Become Man?

al-boriqee · 01-06-2010, 10:09 AM

I love you ansaar

this is why I love this man. Look how he smashed it with the quote of Ibn Abil-Izz rahimahullah

Sorry if Im so late on the thread, but i generally avoid philosophically incoherent questions that intrinsically is rooted in impossibilities.

03-04-2008, 06:40 PM	#1
Qatada Administrator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,022 Gender: Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 79 Thanked 257 Times in 209 Posts	Can God create a stone He cannot lift? Asalamu alaikum wr wb http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...main_cat_id=18 Question: Muslims say that Allah is capable of anything (huwa 'ala kulli shay’in qadeer). Therefore, is Allah, for instance, capable of creating a heavy stone that He will not be able to lift? Knowing that if Allah is capable of creating such a stone, that would make Him incapable of doing one thing (lifting this stone). On the other hand, if He is incapable of creating that kind of stone, that will contradict the Koran where it says He is capable of anything. I don't know how to answer this argument. Your help is needed. Answered by the Fatwa Department Research Committee - chaired by Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî This argument is a classic example of sophistry. It is a nonsense argument that merely sounds like it make sense. This type of argument occurs when the sentences work grammatically but have no intelligible meaning, since the meaning conveyed by the sentences is self-contradictory. It is an old philosopher’s trick. The argument looks sensible on the surface, but contains a logical fallacy. When we talk about lifting a stone, we are merely referring to moving it form one point in space to another. Of course, we cannot doubt that Allah has the power to cause a stone to be in any point in space that He wishes. We need to understand what the argument is really saying. When someone proposes that “He cannot lift it”, he is essentially proposing that He is incapable of something – in this case of having the stone move to a different point in space. The argument is really only proposing His being capable of being incapable! Therefore, by removing the words “stone” and “lift” from the argument, we get to the essence of the argument, which we can express as follows: Muslims say that Allah is capable of all things. Therefore, is Allah capable of being incapable? If he is capable of being incapable, then he is incapable of something. If he is incapable of being incapable, then he is incapable of something. You see, once we remove the words “lifting a stone” form the argument and get down to its bare bones, it becomes clear to us just what a silly, nonsensical argument it really is.

03-08-2008, 10:26 PM	#4
Bassam Zawadi Full Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 62 Gender: Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 12 Posts	This is somewhat related Can God Become Man? Last edited by salman; 01-06-2010 at 09:11 AM. Reason: broken link updated

03-18-2008, 01:11 PM	#5
PK_Aali ...on leave... Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Temporary Residence - Am just a traveller restin in da shade of a tree..hav yet to go to my real hme Posts: 126 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've read this before. MashaAllah its a good laid out explanation. __________________ ... "And indeed, We have made the Qur'aan easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)" - [Qur'aan, 54:32] Anas (radiAllahu anhu) reported Rasulullah (sallallahu alaiyhi wasalam) as saying, ?There is a Surah which will plead for its reciter till it causes him to enter paradise (Surah Mulk:67).? - [at-Tabrani]

03-19-2008, 03:51 AM	#6
Sabraan Ya Ummah Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Dar al-kufr Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Interesting:) Jazaku-Allah khayr! __________________ The real prisoner is someone whose heart has been imprisoned from his Lord and the true captive is someone captured by his passions. Ibn Taymiyyah [Rahimahullaah]

04-19-2008, 03:55 AM	#7
Ansar Al-'Adl Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3 Gender: Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Question: Can God create a stone large enough that even He can't lift? My Answer: Atheists attempt to use this question to prove that the concept of omnipotence is self-contradictory. But the problem here is a contradiction in terms. This issue becomes even more clear when we examine a related question: "Can God create an uncreated being?" The problem here is that the questioner has already defined the being to be uncreated and then proceeds to ask for something that contradicts that definition. The problem is in the questioner's terms, not any lack in God's potential. The same is true when asking God to make a circle with four sides. Having already provided a definition of a circle that could never include a four-sided figure, such a question is absurd. Something is certainly self-contradictory here, but it is the questioner's terminology and not the omnipotence of God. The same is true when we come to the case of create a stone which cannot be lifted. Aside from the problem that we are placing an infinite unrestricted being under the finite restricted laws of our universe, the concept of the stone is self-contradictory. Basically, such a stone could not exist because it is conceptually incoherent. When one asks if God could create such a stone, one would normally identify the properties of such a stone. But here we haven't been given absolute properties, but instead we've been given properties of the stone relative to God's properties. The questioner has identified the potential stone as something so big that God couldn't lift, so even though we already know that there is nothing God cannot lift, they have used that as an attribute for the stone. Automatically, the concept of such a stone is nullified. Now, when they ask could God create such a stone, the answer is no, but that doesn't imply a lack of potential on the part of God. Instead, it reflects the fact that the concept of such a stone is illogical, unreal, inadmissible. It is very similar to asking if God can die. Well, death isn't an ability, its the inability to live. The immortal cannot die because that defies His attribute of immortality. Similarly, the omnipotent cannot create a task that He can't complete because such a task is merely a figment of one's imagination and could not exist. You're basically asking, if God can do anything, can He make it impossible for himself to do something? The question is illogical and self-contradictory because the argument contradicts the premise. Once you have already established that God can do anything, then that's a set attribute and part of His nature. Therefore, He can do anything that is consistent with His nature, anything that is absolute. Can God make 1=2? Well if 1=2, then it wouldn't be 1! So the idea is self-contradictory, not God. The question also reminds me of the idea of what happens when an immovable rock meets an unstoppable force? The two things cannot exist in the same universe. Likewise, if God exists then all things which contradict His attributes are imaginary, non-existant and impossible. They are forever bound to the realm of imagination and cannot be brought into existence. Shaykh Ibn Abil-'Izz (d. 1389CE) also answered this question in Sharhul Aqeedah Tahawiyyah (p.137), in his discussion of the following verse: And Allah, over each thing, is omnipotent; all-powerful [al-Baqarah 2:284] This includes all that is possible. As for what is in intrinsically impossible - such as there being a thing that exists and does not exist at one and the same time - then, this has no reality, nor is its existence conceivable, nor is it termed 'a thing' by agreement of those with intelligence. Included in this category is: [Allah] creating the likes of Himself, making Himself non-existent, and other impossibilites. This also serves as a reply to the question posed by some: 'Can Allah create a stone that He is unable to lift?' The argument being that if Allah cannot create such a stone, He is not all-powerful; but if He can, then likewise He is not all-powerful. The fallacy of this argument lies in the fact that such an affair is, in itself, impossible and exists only in the minds of certain people. And not all that the mind conjures-up has an existence that is possible, nor is it always termed 'a thing.' Hopefully that makes the issue clear. And Allah knows best. wasalam Ansar al-'Adl

01-06-2010, 09:12 AM	#9
salman Proud Islamist Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Islamic-Life.com Posts: 2,168 Gender: Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 73 Thanked 295 Times in 213 Posts	Re: Can God create a stone He cannot lift? ^link is updated ... it is referring to Can God Become Man? __________________ Fi Amanillah Wa As-Salamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu The Prophet sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam said: "The Muslim is a unique Ummah among the whole of mankind: Their Land is ONE, their War is ONE, their Peace is ONE, Their Honour is ONE and their Trust is ONE." [Relayed by Imam of Ahlus Sunnah - Ahmad ibn Hanbal - rahimahullah]

01-06-2010, 10:09 AM	#10
al-boriqee salafist Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 950 Gender: Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 5 Thanked 227 Times in 172 Posts	Re: Can God create a stone He cannot lift? I love you ansaar this is why I love this man. Look how he smashed it with the quote of Ibn Abil-Izz rahimahullah Sorry if Im so late on the thread, but i generally avoid philosophically incoherent questions that intrinsically is rooted in impossibilities.

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