> Is atheism the starting point in debate?

[Qatada]

Asalamu alaikum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.



When you're in debate, especially with atheists - you need a starting point.


They will say that the starting point of the debate is that there is no God, so you have to prove that there is one in order to convince them.

But this isn't true at all:

Some [atheists] will even claim atheism isn't even a paradigm but the default starting position. They are obviously wrong,

Agnosticism (pondering over whether God exists or not) is the default starting position.


Atheism is negatively biased towards the existence of God, and theism (religion) on the other hand is positively biased.

The difference is [in comparison to the atheist], at least the theists acknowledges that their view is a belief.

http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/brainwashing.htm

That's a really good point to make, since the person who believes in God knows and says that they require faith to believe that God exists.

Whereas the atheist is confident (without any proof) that God does not exist.


Making the atheist abit more arrogant in his claim of denial.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah

lol what if the guys insisting that God doesnt exist?! doesnt that naturally make atheism the starting point as you have to refute it?!

[Qatada]

The issue isn't to do with whether he believes in God or not, the issue is where the debate begins from.

I.e. he will start by claiming that God does not exist.

You will claim that Islam is the religion from God.


But you both will have to hit the middle to get somewhere in the debate.

So since his opinion is denial, and yours is for - then the in between view is that there can be a God (agnosticism) - this is where you have to explain why you think Islam is from the God you believe in (azawajal). (i.e. science is from God and explanations from the Qur'an to support this, and lots of other info. you already know.)



I know that the idea of convincing him that God exists is a totally different issue. We ourselves recognize that it requires faith to believe in Him.

However, the main aim of this thread was to inform that if an atheist says that denying God is the starting point of debate - that's false. Since you clearly have stated that you know it requires faith with signs (ayat, and this opens the door for you to discuss them.)


So this point is important, if not for the atheist - for the people who are watching the debate to know. That agnosticism is the middle way, and then both groups have to try to use other information which is authentic and reliable as evidence to support their claims further - for & against.



Allahu a'lam.

[Qatada]

Asalamu alaikum


just felt like adding this in;


'Common Ground'

Basically, in debate - both parties have to come to a 'common ground' - both parties have to come together where they can 'fight' or debate. I.e. In Battle, both armies have to leave their lands where they live and meet together in a 'no-man's land' where they fight.

If one army doesn't come to meet the other one, then the battle can't properly take place. Since they both don't have 'common ground' to meet or fight.


The same with debate, you have to accept some information from the other group in order to have evidences to debate with. (the same applies to the other side.) I.e. we both accept existence [the common ground] - you explain how all matter did not create itself, or that the Big Bang was caused by Allah (it's also discussed in Qur'an? etc. which supports our case that an All Knowing Originator placed this in His revelation over 1400years ago?)


The same applies to this issue (of God), since its a grey area. In areas of science where there isn't clear proof, for or against a claim - then you may come to an agreement for the sake of argument - this would be that agnosticism is the 'common ground'.


Regarding the issue of God, we can't see Allah, and we know it requires faith. But science can't disprove that Allah doesn't exist, since Allah is outside His creation.


An example is a person hiding behind a door, - even though i can't prove it to you that he's there, it doesn't prove that he's not there. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.



So either the atheist has to agree on a common ground with you - even if this is just for the sake of argument on his behalf - or he can turn away and that's the end of the discussion. Because without common ground in debate, you're not going to get anywhere.



And Allah knows best.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i actually posted a pretty long reply and it didnt get posted lol so here i go second time:

Bro i understand what you mean..

If an atheist is willing to even think that God might exist theres many things we should avoid mentioning though:

science in Quran <-- not worth it, they will always think its ambiguous even if the top scientists have reverted due to it.

literature in Quran <-- how can they understand it? they will think it is possible to be written by man, so i also think this is a bad ground.

fact that Quran gives solution to your problems <--- not sure about this one? good one to start out with?

im not sure what common ground to use against an atheist...


how would you start out explaining why you think Quran is from Allah to an atheist?


Assalamu Alaikum

[Qatada]

I think that science in Qur'an is useful, especially if they havn't had a clear understanding or explanation to it before.


Remember that one of the most important things in debate, especially with atheists is confidence. If we know what we're saying, and have some basic arabic language skills - then we're all good insha Allah because we know what we're talking about (instead of relying on a translation only.) And to tell them that if they're in doubt, they can ask any 'arabic speaker to translate that word - to prove that you're really being truthful. This confidence amazes them.



I'd usually explain the science issues briefly, and ask how a man who was illiterate over 1400 years ago knew something like this? They can't say that he (sal Allahu alaihi wasalam) copied of non muslims because even non muslims never knew these pieces of info back then.



Anyway, you usually try to figoure out what type of person they are. Then try to explain how that interest of theres has an Islamic viewpoint to it, basically pulling them towards that thing so they feel that it will benefit them, and incline them towards it, and indirectly link that thing with Islam.

That's why, in alot of debates - i prefer to leave interesting (good layed out) site links behind incase anyone's interested, or incase the debate ends soon. This way the person has something reliable and interesting to refer to - even if they end the debate with you.



So yeah, if the person wants solutions to problems - then do explain how Islam has succeeded in that more than any other group in history. That Islam does not contradict true science in any way (and has never done so throughout history, simply because the patterns' in Allah's creation are science.) And that the benefits of Islam is that it will make you're life much more easier and help you advance so much more. (Kind of like advertising a business product lol.)



So you simply break down any barriers they have of Islam, and invite them into the safety zone so they can trust you and accept what you're willing to share. :)


If you make the conversation abit more personal in a good way, then the person is likely to hear you out. But if they're just closed minded and don't want to accept, then your duty is to only convey the message [clearly.]

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Wa Alaikum Ussalam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh

bro most atheists think zakir naik doesnt know any science at all (i know his a doctor and i trust his science above theirs) but im saying this is how they think. Through experience more then anything i would say it is better to approach it through other means.. i guess you can try and inshAllah if the person is open minded he will come to see. I've been trying to convince someone of the science in Quran myself and showing that it makes sense but to no avail, i guess the masses of out of context interpretations of Quran which can be found on the web simply dont help either.

Allahu A'lam, personally i prefer to show an atheist that This universe cant begin without a creator --> A creator wouldnt leave his creation without guidance if he is all just ---> thus he sends messengers every so often to guide mankind ---> but mankind distorts religion which requires renewal ---> however God promised to protect his message after the final messenger Muhammad thus islam will be the prevailing religion throughout time and all other religions are a distortion.


well... it seems more thought provoking to be honest...


Assalamu Alaikum

[Qatada]

asalamu alaikum


then go with what you're more comfortable with, thats the better way :) i wouldn't depend my whole debate on the sciences either lol..

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Yeah i feel like when i debate with atheists i can completely bulldoze them by proving its just illogical that God doesnt exist, also that God would leave mankind after creation although giving them all these facilities.

Confidence helps, but confidence also requires a depth of knowledge, i think the confidence comes from actually knowing what your talking about lol. And Alhamdulillah islam makes much more sense then everything the atheists come up with, and i kNOW they can feel it as much as i can...

Assalamu Alaikum

[Mayooosh]

It is only rational to believe that the universe was created
Al7amdilah we Muslims believe in creation and evolution (to some extent)

Scientists have stated that the whole universe was one single mass that exploded and it is steadily expanding .. Muslims don?t have a problem with this theory since we are told in the Quran :

?Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke... (Quran, 41:11)

?Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation), then We parted them? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (Quran, 21:30)

?And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

As the above verses state there was a mass, it is expanding but it is Allah SWT who put that mass there and is steadily expanding it ..

Usually when talking to atheists I like to use the example of tying a bomb to a tree (then make a small joke about being Palestinian :-P )
I usually ask the atheist if the result of the exploding tree will be a table, or a chair . .. the answer is usually niether .. I further ask if I attempted to do this experiment 100 times or a million times will I ever come up with a chair or table .. again the answer is no .. so how can we expect there to be perfect order from chaos .. there has to be some kind of force orchestrating in the background .. and we all know that it is Allah SWT who is doing this since he told us in the Quran. Sub7an Allah!

http://www.islam-guide.com/