> Hazrat Isa (AS) dead or alive?

[optimist]

Originally Posted by Mr.Popat

and thus the second coming of Eesa (AS) could mean someone amongst the ummah of Muhammad PBUH will get the title of Eesa (AS)..

.....Absurd!

[Mr.Popat]

Originally Posted by salman

^quick comment before I blast you completely, insha'Allah: there is no need for you to play these little games. I already know what you want to prove and if I disapprove you, will you reject your kufr and embrace Islam? And if you disapprove Islam then we will accept your kufr and consider it as haqq. Are you up to this challenge?

The ahadith say Issa ibn Maryam (alayhi as-sallam) will come back again not Mirza ibn Chaarag Bibi. Can you bring a single hadith which says that Issa ibn Maryam (alayhi as-sallam) will come in form of Mirza ibn Chaarah Bibi will come back? In addition, your own dajjal prophet made 12 different claims about his nature of being messiah. Which one should we accept?

I am glad you put forth the challenge.. If you convince me i will leave those beliefs which you proved false. However, if i happen to convince you.. will you leave your false beliefs? (notice i am not saying religion, as religion for me as well as you is Islam.. its just the mere beliefs within Islam that needs a bit of attention)..ok so yea, Ofcourse hadith says Isa ibn e Mariyam (AS), but just the wordings of it cannot mean He (AS) is alive bodily. You're gonna have to first prove from Quran or authentic hadith that He (AS) was taken UP TO the heavens BODILY alive and will come back to the world BODILY as he was taken up. C'mon bring me any Quranic verse from Quran.. meanwhile please clarify the verses i posted earlier about Jesus (AS) and Mary (AS) USED to eat together. Need clarification on that. We can move on after that.

Also , please try to keep the topic in hand and do not jump here and there. Question is if you can prove Jesus (AS) alive bodily in heaven from Quran or Hadith.

Please also try to avoid using abusive language such as Dajjal this and that.. or me being a kafir. Will appreciate it.

[Amat Allah]

Originally Posted by Mr.Popat

Sister Amat_Allah Assalam o Alaikum warahmatullah,
Yes indeed there are ahadith concerning Hazrat Eesa (AS) coming, but will he be coming to the world alive is the question.

Wa Alikum Asalam Wa Rahmato Allahi Wa Barakatuh

of course my respected brother he will come a live if not a live then why coming from the first place as a dead body and that is clear from the a hadeeth I gave to u and they are all sahih ahadeeth from Rasool Allah salla Allaho Alyhi wa sallam...

if not coming a live then how to judge fairly,break the cross, kill the pigs and put an end to war? can a dead body do this?? sure he will be a live Alyhi Assalato Wassalaam...

Originally Posted by Mr.Popat

There are many verses in Quran stating Hazrat Eesa(AS)'s death, and thus the second coming of Eesa (AS) could mean someone amongst the ummah of Muhammad PBUH will get the title of Eesa (AS)..

my respected brother the prophet Muhammad salla Allaho Alyhi wa sallam said in the saheeh hadeeth I gave to u narrated by Al Bukhari and Muslim :"By the One in Whose hand is my soul, it is nearly time for the son of Maryam to descend upon you, to judge fairly. ......."

he said :the son of Maryam my respected brother and he said :to descend upon you...

and here he meant Isa salla Allaho Alyhi wa sallam not someone else and if he was one of the Islamic Ummah Rasool Allah would tell us my respected brother just like telling us about Al Mahdi may Allah be pleased with him .

Originally Posted by Mr.Popat

Whether Hazrat Eesa (AS) was raised up alive or not is what the question is.

Please explain the following verses from Quran..
21:08 (09 for some).. "And We did not give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they to live for ever"

25:21 ( 20 for some )..And We never sent any Messengers before thee but surely they ate food and walked in the streets. And We make some of you a trial for others. Will you then be steadfast? And thy Lord is All- Seeing.

and then Quran says :

5:75(76 for some) The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.

in the last verse, it says.. Jesus (AS) and Mary both USED to eat food.. that means they no longer do. it would however make no sense for one of them (jesus AS) to be alive and Mary (AS) to be dead.. either they both are dead or both alive.. since in the last verse Allah is combining both of them and says that they BOTH used to eat food..

Please explain..

Allah says:,


[مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ]


(The Messiah, son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him.) `Isa is just like the previous Prophets, and he is one of the servants of Allah and one of His honorable Messengers. Allah says in another Ayah:,


[إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ عَبْدٌ أَنْعَمْنَا عَلَيْهِ وَجَعَلْنَـهُ مَثَلاً لِّبَنِى إِسْرَءِيلَ ]


(He [`Isa] was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.) Allah said next,


[وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ]


(His mother was a Siddiqah) for she believed in Allah with complete trust in Him. This is the highest rank she was given, which proves that she was not a Prophet. Allah said next,


[كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ]


(They both used to eat food) needing nourishment and to relieve the call of nature. Therefore, they are just servants like other servants, not gods as ignorant Christian sects claim, may Allah's continued curses cover them until the Day of Resurrection. Allah said next,


[انْظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الاٌّيَـتِ]


(Look how We make the Ayat clear to them. ) making them unequivocal and plain,


[ثُمَّ انْظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ]


(yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth).) look at the opinions, misguided ideas, and claims they cling to, even after Our clarification and plain, unequivocal explanation.

here u can find the tafseer of any verse u want in shaa Allah:

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

my respected brother at this moment u need to understand the meaning of the word mutawaffeeka ( it doesn`t mean only death it means sleep too and many meanings) Allah says:" وَهُوَ الَّذِي يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ بِاللَّيْلِ وَيَعْلَمُ مَا جَرَحْتُمْ بِالنَّهَارِ ثُمَّ يَبْعَثُكُمْ فِيهِ لِيُقْضَىٰ أَجَلٌ مُسَمًّى ۖ ثُمَّ إِلَيْهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ (60)

[60] It is He, Who takes your souls by night (when you are asleep), and has knowledge of all that you have done by day, then he raises (wakes) you up again that a term appointed (your life period) be fulfilled, then (in the end) unto Him will be your return. Then He will inform you of that which you used to do."

Surat Al An`aam

so Isa salla Allaho Alyhi wa sallam might be sleeping now and I don`t think sleeping people would be able to eat my respected brother may be he is sleeping just like the sleeping of the people of the cave in Surat Al Kahff they slept for 309 years they didn`t eat my respected brother or the sleeping of the prophet Uzayr salla Allaho Alyhi wa sallam in Surat Al Baqarah he slept for 100 year ,did he eat while sleeping ??? ....

and about being a live together or dead together my respected brother no one`s death is conected to the other for ex: u have ur time and u mother has her time and u might have the same time too ...I wish u did understand...
and Allah knows the best...

and u got to know that the scholars of Islam had knowledge of Quraan and hadeeth more than us ...

and I think if u had the well knowledge of the Arabic language u might understand the verses in Quraan about Isa Alyhi Asalatu wassalaam and everything in Allah`s book in shaa Allah...

Wa Asalamo alikum Wa Rahmato allahi Wa Barakatuh

[salman]

Originally Posted by Mr.Popat

I am glad you put forth the challenge.. If you convince me i will leave those beliefs which you proved false. However, if i happen to convince you.. will you leave your false beliefs? (notice i am not saying religion, as religion for me as well as you is Islam.. its just the mere beliefs within Islam that needs a bit of attention)

actually, no one can guide except Allah Azza wa Jal and I can only put forward proofs and refute your claims. In addition, our aqeedah is the Islamic aqeedah, propagated and understood by Muslims for 13 centuries and that includes the sahabas, tabi'een, and taba tabi'een (may Allah have mercy on them). I have put forward smiliar challenge to at least 3 qadyanis in the past (when I used to be active in refuting you guys) and all of them ran away when haqq was shown. Insha'Allah, we can try this on you as well and we make dua'a that He guides you to haqq and show us haqq, ameen

Before I begin, can you please tell me if the statements of sahabas, tabi'een and taba tabi'een (salaf in short) are hujjah to you. If you say no, why not? Are the statements of Mirza Ghulam are hujjah to you and you believe that whatever he said must be followed?

Originally Posted by Mr.Popat

Also , please try to keep the topic in hand and do not jump here and there. Question is if you can prove Jesus (AS) alive bodily in heaven from Quran or Hadith.

the topic of Issa's (alayhi as-sallam) nazool at end time is related to this topic. And so does the statements of your Mirza about his nature of messiah (Issa). The reason why you say that Issa ibn Maryam (alayhi as-sallam) is dead is because you want us to believe that Issa mentioned in the ahadith is not Issa ibn Maryam rather it could be anyone and it was none other than your Mirza

Originally Posted by Mr.Popat

Please also try to avoid using abusive language such as Dajjal this and that.. or me being a kafir. Will appreciate it.

please look up the definition of abusive language. Are you saying Allah Ta'ala used abusive language when he called the kafirs kafir? Are you saying that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) used the abusive language when he called them (the self proclaimed Muslims of his ummah calling themselves prophet and mahdi) dajjal? Secondly, we, the people of Sunnah, do not hesitate to speak the truth whether people like it or hate it. However, for sake of da'wah and with the hope that Allah may change your heart I will avoid this, insha'Allah. However, do not complain about legitimate harshness in my responses.

PS: I want you to know that I am having this discussion for sake of da'wah and with hope that Allah Azza wa Jal will guide you to haqq. Otherwise, like the saying goes in urdu: "app log azmay hovay haan"

@Amat Allah

sister, may Allah preserve you, leave him to me, insha'Allah - I have experience with these guys and I know why they raise the points they raise. Maybe you could help with some Arabic references (takhreej and tahqeeq) and translation, insha'Allah. Jazak Allah khayran

[Ahmad]

jazakALLAH khair Brother Salman

[Mr.Popat]

you said you do not allow useless debates and that is what im trying to avoid. However, the question of Jesus (AS) being raised up alive is a legit question to you. Please dont bring in Ahmadiyya jamaat in the thread as it has got nothing to do with it. I promise, I will not bring Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) in the topic.. so I ask again.. please provide me with reference from Quran supporting Hazrat Isa(AS)'s ascension to heaven bodily alive.

[Mr.Popat]

Originally Posted by Amat Allah

Wa Alikum Asalam Wa Rahmato Allahi Wa Barakatuh

of course my respected brother he will come a live if not a live then why coming from the first place as a dead body and that is clear from the a hadeeth I gave to u and they are all sahih ahadeeth from Rasool Allah salla Allaho Alyhi wa sallam...

if not coming a live then how to judge fairly,break the cross, kill the pigs and put an end to war? can a dead body do this?? sure he will be a live Alyhi Assalato Wassalaam...

Assalam O alaikum warahmatullah he wabarakatuhu,
My respected sister, you first have to provide me with reference from Quran that He(AS) was taken up to heavens alive and will come to Earth bodily. Allah has given MuhammadPBUH death, why not then Hazrat Isa(AS)?

Originally Posted by Amat Allah

my respected brother the prophet Muhammad salla Allaho Alyhi wa sallam said in the saheeh hadeeth I gave to u narrated by Al Bukhari and Muslim :"By the One in Whose hand is my soul, it is nearly time for the son of Maryam to descend upon you, to judge fairly. ......."

he said :the son of Maryam my respected brother and he said :to descend upon you...

and here he meant Isa salla Allaho Alyhi wa sallam not someone else and if he was one of the Islamic Ummah Rasool Allah would tell us my respected brother just like telling us about Al Mahdi may Allah be pleased with him

What does descending mean to you? bodily alive? Hazrat Imam Mahdi is to Prophet Muhammad PBUH as Jesus(AS) was to Moses (AS).. (I.e: coming in the same intervals ...1300years).

Originally Posted by Amat Allah

(The Messiah, son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him.) `Isa is just like the previous Prophets, and he is one of the servants of Allah and one of His honorable Messengers. Allah says in another Ayah:,

Its clear now, Isa AS is just like the previous prophets .. if all of them have died , so has Isa (AS)..

Originally Posted by Amat Allah

(They both used to eat food) needing nourishment and to relieve the call of nature. Therefore, they are just servants like other servants, not gods as ignorant Christian sects claim, may Allah's continued curses cover them until the Day of Resurrection.

Allah joining both Mary and Jesus (AS) in one verse and saying they both USED to eat food.. that means they no longer do. It doesnt make sense if one of them keep eating (Jesus AS) and mary (AS) is dead. Either both are dead.. or both are alive.

Originally Posted by Amat Allah

my respected brother at this moment u need to understand the meaning of the word mutawaffeeka ( it doesn`t mean only death it means sleep too and many meanings) Allah says:" وَهُوَ الَّذِي يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ بِاللَّيْلِ وَيَعْلَمُ مَا جَرَحْتُمْ بِالنَّهَارِ ثُمَّ يَبْعَثُكُمْ فِيهِ لِيُقْضَىٰ أَجَلٌ مُسَمًّى ۖ ثُمَّ إِلَيْهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ (60)

[60] It is He, Who takes your souls by night (when you are asleep), and has knowledge of all that you have done by day, then he raises (wakes) you up again that a term appointed (your life period) be fulfilled, then (in the end) unto Him will be your return. Then He will inform you of that which you used to do."

Sis, in the state of sleep , one is not required food but for how long? We must not forget that He (AS) was nothing but a prophet just like any other prophet. This is a whole new concept you brought about him being asleep which makes one have so many questions. Allah says that He takes soul only in two occasions .. death and sleep. However, keep in mind that in both instances the body is stayed in Earth while the soul departs. Why is this case different for Isa (AS)? Doesnt life increase when one is asleep? On one hand He (AS) is aging, while on other hand you say He will come back bodily to earth as he was taken up.



Surat Al An`aam

Originally Posted by Amat Allah

so Isa salla Allaho Alyhi wa sallam might be sleeping now and I don`t think sleeping people would be able to eat my respected brother may be he is sleeping just like the sleeping of the people of the cave in Surat Al Kahff they slept for 309 years they didn`t eat my respected brother or the sleeping of the prophet Uzayr salla Allaho Alyhi wa sallam in Surat Al Baqarah he slept for 100 year ,did he eat while sleeping ??? ....

I believe everything thats been in Quran and what ever is not in Quran is what i have questions about .. and Jesus (AS)'s ascension to heavens bodily is something that one cannot find in Quran. Such a huge event and nothing being said in Quran?

Originally Posted by Amat Allah

and about being a live together or dead together my respected brother no one`s death is conected to the other for ex: u have ur time and u mother has her time and u might have the same time too ...I wish u did understand...
and Allah knows the best...

Sister, please read that verse again. In that verse, Allah is combining BOTH Jesus and Mary (AS) together and saying that they both USED to eat. If one used to eat, that means s/he no longer does. And as i posted another verse which states that all the prophets used to eat. This is clear that Jesus (AS) was same as other prophets who used to eat. Hence no longer eats. That means hes dead, along with his mother.

Originally Posted by Amat Allah

and u got to know that the scholars of Islam had knowledge of Quraan and hadeeth more than us ...

and I think if u had the well knowledge of the Arabic language u might understand the verses in Quraan about Isa Alyhi Asalatu wassalaam and everything in Allah`s book in shaa Allah...

Wa Asalamo alikum Wa Rahmato allahi Wa Barakatuh

In Islam i do not find any direct reference of Jesus (AS)'s ascension to heavens, why do i then believe what scholars of Islam have been saying when they cannot clarify their own beliefs.

Fe Aman Allah.

[salman]

Originally Posted by Mr.Popat

you said you do not allow useless debates and that is what im trying to avoid.

actually, you are gearing toward one as you seem to keep avoiding my questions.

Originally Posted by Mr.Popat

However, the question of Jesus (AS) being raised up alive is a legit question to you.

how come this question was only raised when your mirza sahab appeared on stage? There is an ijmaa' on bodily ascension of Issa (peace upon him), meaning raised up alive, among the sahabas and the tabi'een in addition to rest of the ummah who followed them. You cannot claim to be more knowledgeable than the companions and if you do then there is no point of discussion. According to your Mirza sahab, the sahaba (radiAllahu anhuma) were wrong in this issue and they committed shirk. So you are saying you got your religion from people who committed such heresy. How can you then trust rest of the religion al-Islam? Is that what you want us to follow?

Originally Posted by Mr.Popat

Please dont bring in Ahmadiyya jamaat in the thread as it has got nothing to do with it. I promise, I will not bring Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) in the topic..

you can play these little games with others my friend but not with me. I have dealt with enough of your kind to know the tricks which you guys try. It has everything to do with Ahmadiyyat because your porphet was the first one who came up with this idea and you belonging to that group tells us why you put forward these questions to begin with

Originally Posted by Mr.Popat

so I ask again.. please provide me with reference from Quran supporting Hazrat Isa(AS)'s ascension to heaven bodily alive.

rubbish, when was Islam based solely on the Qur'an?

I am going to ask you again that you please answer my following questions before I can dissect and blast your content:

1 - Do you take ahadith as shari'i evidence?
2 - Do you believe in miracles?
3 - Are the statements of sahaba and tabi'een hujjah to you?
4 - Do you follow whatever your mirza said and believe in that?

Just 'Yes' or 'No' will do. If you do not answer these questions and try to dance around the issue, I will simply delete your posts because decent discussions are not possible unless you answer other person's questions. And as I said once you answer these questions, I will answer yours. I hope this is clear

[Amat Allah]

و عليكم السلام ورحمة الله و بركاته

he is urs my respected brother Salman but before leaving my respected brother Mr.PopatI am not writing u this to insult u in anyway or making u feel bad no I swear by the One who has my soul in his hand I am not but if u r believing in Rasool Allah Muhammad salla Allaho Alyhi wa sallam then why not taking his saying as a proofs?? why not believe what he had said ?? what is ur way in believing in him salla Allaho Alyhi wa sallam?? I gave u sahih ahaadeeth but u ignored the saying of Rasool Allah asking me to give u proofs from only Quraan Akhi...why?? and every single Muslim know that Sunna is explaining Quraan...

this is not Islam wa Allahi not Islam at all and Allah says:

(a) Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allaah . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:80] Allaah described obedience to the Prophet (peace be upon him) as being a part of obedience to Him. Then He made a connection between obedience to Him and obedience to the Prophet (peace be upon him): “O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59]

(b) Allaah warns us not to go against the Prophet (peace be upon him), and states that whoever disobeys him will be doomed to eternal Hell. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “. . . And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some fitnah (trial, affliction, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [al-Nur 24:63]

(c) Allaah has made obedience to His Prophet a religious duty; resisting or opposing it is a sign of hypocrisy: “”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:65]

(d) Allaah commands His slaves to respond to Him and His Messenger: “O you who believe! Answer Allaah (by obeying Him) and (His) Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life . . .” [al-Anfaal 8:24]

(e) Allaah also commands His slaves to refer all disputes to him: “. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger . . .”
[al-Nisaa’ 4:59]

and Rasool Allah salla Allaho Alyhi wa sallam said:

(a) Al-Tirmidhi reported from Abu Raafi’ and others that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “I do not want to see any one of you reclining on his couch and, when he hears of my instructions or prohibitions, saying ‘I don’t accept it; we didn’t find any such thing in the Book of Allaah.’” Abu ‘Eesaa said: This is a saheeh hasan hadeeth.

(See Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Shaakir edition, no. 2663).

Al-’Irbaad ibn Saariyah, may Allaah be pleased with him, reported that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Would any of you think, reclining on his couch, that Allaah would only describe what is forbidden in the Qur’aan? I tell you, by Allaah, that I have warned and commanded and prohibited things that are as important as what is in the Qur’aan, if not more so.”

(Reported by Abu Dawud, Kitaab al-Khiraj wa’l-imaarah wa’l-fay’).

(b) Abu Dawud also reported from al-’Irbaad ibn Saariyah, may Allaah be pleased with him, that “the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) led us in prayer one day, then he turned to us and exhorted us strongly . . . (he said), ‘Pay attention to my sunnah (way) and the way of the Rightly-guided Khaleefahs after me, adhere to it and hold fast to it.’”

(Saheeh Abi Dawud, Kitaab al-Sunnah).


and u got to know Akhi That Allah is able to do whatever he wants and wills even if making anyone sleeps for a long time with out dying, flying or living as a fish inside the sea...its Allah`s will Akhi and Allah can do anything he wants with his creature...don`t u know Allah??

Isa Alyhi Asalam is a normal human being eating sleeping and he is going to die just like anyone of us and anything happening to him out of normal is from Allah not from his own self ...and Allah is not unable to bring u ur self to life after ur death if he wills ( I don`t mean The day of Resurrection )...

and this man Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who climed that he is a prophet and made u believe in that saying (AS) after his name everytime u mentioning him doesn`t know what he had done to him self ...alas!

لِيَحْمِلُوا أَوْزَارَهُمْ كَامِلَةً يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ ۙ وَمِنْ أَوْزَارِ الَّذِينَ يُضِلُّونَهُمْ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ ۗ أَلَا سَاءَ مَا يَزِرُونَ (25)

سورة النحل


[25] They may bear their own burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection, and also of the burdens of those whom they misled without knowledge. Evil indeed is that which they shall bear!" Surat Annahil

inna lellah wa inna ilayhi rajioon la hawla wa la qowata illa billah...

and the last words from me to my self first ,to you and everyone in this Dunya open ur eyes before its too late , before crying with blood from Sorrowfully and fear Allah fear Allah fear Allah ...

may Allah guide us all forgive us and reward us with thehighest levels of paradise with out being reckoning Ameeeeeeeen

fee amanillah


اللهم إني بلغت اللهم فاشهد
اللهم إني بلغت اللهم فاشهد
اللهم إني بلغت اللهم فاشهد