> which is the correct translation for this ayat?

[salamfromrom]

:

I was reading about the origins of shirk on the main site here, and I came across this:

"And God said to Jesus, son of Mary: 'Did you ask men to take you and your mother for objects of worship beside Almighty God?' He answered: 'Praise be to You, O God! How can I have asked that which is not mine to ask? If I did, You know it and all that is in my mind. I do not know what is in Your mind, O Transcendent, All- Knowing God! I have not conveyed to them except what You have commanded me to convey, namely, Worship and serve God, my and your only Lord. I was a witness for You in their midst. When You caused me to die, You took over the witnessing on them as well as on all else. If You punish them, they are Your creatures; and if You forgive them, You are the Mighty, the Wise" [Qur'an 5:116-118].

This aroused my interest because it did not sound like a correct translation(mistakes do happen and/or I may be wrong offcourse) and I checked it out.

here are the other translations:

005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
PICKTHAL: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?
SHAKIR: And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
005.117
YUSUFALI: "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
PICKTHAL: I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things.
SHAKIR: I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.

I guess the version on this site was the Shakir version, but which is more correct? I would guess the other two.... My main interest is in the "you caused me to die" translation....Allah(swt) alone knows, but there's a difference between yusuf Ali and Shakir's translation. Which one is more correct?

Salam a leikum

[salamfromrom]

Salam

This is exciting because I did not know enough about the second coming of jesus and how close it would be to the End of Days. I always thought jesus would come back exactly before the end. The Following is from wikipedia:

Second coming

See also: Second Coming
Muslims believe that Jesus will return at a time close to the end of the world. One Qur'anic verse alludes to Jesus' future return as follows:<sup id="cite_ref-EoI-Isa_2-7" class="reference">[3]</sup>
<table style="border-style: none; margin: auto; border-collapse: collapse; background-color: transparent;" class="cquote"> <tbody><tr> <td style="padding: 10px; color: rgb(178, 183, 242); font-size: 35px; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-weight: bold; text-align: left;" valign="top" width="20">“</td> <td style="padding: 4px 10px;" valign="top">“And most surely He [Jesus] is a Sign of the Hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow Me: this is the right path.”^{[Qur'an 43:61]}</td> <td style="padding: 10px; color: rgb(178, 183, 242); font-size: 36px; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-weight: bold; text-align: right;" valign="bottom" width="20">”</td> </tr> </tbody></table> According to Islamic tradition, Jesus' descent will be in the midst of wars fought by the Mahdi ("the rightly-guided"), known in Islamic eschatology as the redeemer of Islam, against the Antichrist (al-Masīh ad-Dajjāl, "false messiah") and his followers.<sup id="cite_ref-S209_20-0" class="reference">[21]</sup> Jesus will descend at the point of a white arcade in Damascus, dressed in yellow robes - his head anointed. He will then join the Mahdi in his war against the Dajjal. Jesus, considered in Islam as a Muslim, will abide by the Islamic teachings. Eventually, Jesus will slay the Dajjal, and then everyone from the people of the book (ahl al-kitāb, referring to Jews and Christians) will believe in him. Thus, there will be one community, that of Islam.<sup id="cite_ref-EoI-Isa_2-8" class="reference">[3]</sup>
After the death of the Mahdi, Jesus will assume leadership. This is a time associated in Islamic narrative with universal peace and justice. Islamic texts also allude to the appearance of Ya'juj and Ma'juj (known also as Gog and Magog), ancient tribes which will disperse and cause destruction on earth. God, in response to Jesus' prayers, will kill them by sending a type of worm in the napes of their necks.<sup id="cite_ref-S209_20-1" class="reference">[21]</sup> Jesus' rule is said to be around forty years, after which he will die. Muslims will then perform the funeral prayer for him and then bury him in the city of Medina in a grave left vacant beside Muhammad, Abu Bakr, and Umar (companions of Muhammad and the first and second Muslim caliphs respectively).<sup id="cite_ref-EoI-Isa_2-9" class="reference">[3]</sup>

So I guess it's likely that after Isa(pbuh) dies after his rule on earth, there might be a period in which some people will become disbelievers again, and therefore Shakir's translation might be correct, as are all the others. It appears I have answered my own questions lol but its 5am and I'm very tired. Does anyone know if this view is correct?

Salam

[Assad]

Definitely Shakir's translation has this error but if you look at it the other way than the word "you caused me to die" could mean that he was no longer their on earth.

Let's pioneer bro Salman answer this better :)

[Qatada]

:


the word isn't 'died' [that would be something like mawt,mayta,maat etc.];

فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِى كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ

but when You took me [up] (fayta), You were the Watcher over them...

http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=14965

[salman]

:

@salam

brother, given the context and exegesis, the ayaat before this ayah are addressing the Christians & Jews; therefore, referring to his first coming, this ayah means that Allah Ta'ala raised Prophet Issa (peace be upon him) up to heavens. Hence, we can say that Shakir's interpretation of the meaning of this ayah is not more accurate or correct. Even though we can say that he meant Prophet Issa (peace be upon him) dying after his second coming and not him dying on the cross as Christians claim.

As far Prophet Issa's (peace be upon him) second coming, this is something common between Christians and Muslims. Yes, it is true that after his death, people will go astray again.

Allahu A'lam

[Qatada]

asalaam alaikum


There's some criticisms on Shakirs translation.

[salamfromrom]

Salamu aleikum

Thank you brothers for the help. That is something I suspected.

[salamfromrom]

Salam.

I would like to ask about another ayat which Christian missionaries often use against us.

I thought I shouldnt make another thread, because it would not be off topic to post this in here, since this is a thread about another ayah.

My question is. What is the correct tafsir of The Verse in Chapter 86:

(86:7) that issues forth from between the backbone and the breast-bones.

There are people out there who love to throw confusion on this and say this prooves the scientific innacuracy of the Holy Quran, which is obviously a lie. However there are also alot of muslims which give their own (often conflicting interpretation of the abovementioned verse). Here are some interpretations which I have found (with source).

(86:7) that issues forth from between the backbone and the breast-bones. *3
*3 "Sulb" is the backbone and "tara'ib"the breast- bones, i.e. the ribs. Since the procreative fluid in both man and woman is discharged from that part of the body which is between the back and the breast, it is said that tnan has been created from the fluid issuing out froth between the back and the breast. This fiuid is produced even in case the hands and feet are cut off. Therefore, it is not correct to say that it issues out from the whole body of man. In fact, the principal organs of the body are its source and all these are located in the trunk. The brain has not been mentioned separately because the back-bone is that part of the brain through which connection between the body and the brain is established. (Also see Appendix I).

Source: Surah 86. At-Tariq

This above mentioned explanation seems to be a little broader than others, because it just says (correctly I presume) that the fluid is made between the back and the front of the body(so somewhere in the middle) which nobody in their right mind would argue against.


Then I found the Ibn Khatir Tafsir:

(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) meaning, the backbone (or loins) of the man and the ribs of the woman, which is referring to her chest. Shabib bin Bishr reported from `Ikrimah who narrated from Ibn `Abbas that he said, (Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) "The backbone of the man and the ribs of the woman. It (the fluid) is yellow and fine in texture. The child will not be born except from both of them (i.e., their sexual fluids).''

In Ibn Kathir´s tafsir, the explanation is that the backbone in the ayat is referring to the man, while the Ribs are referred to the woman*, is this based on a hadith? I wonder how did he come to this conclusion and which view is more correct.

(Edit)*

* The plural noun tara'ib, rendered by me as "pelvic arch", has also the meaning of "ribs" or "arch of bones"; according to most of the authorities who have specialized in the etymology of rare Quranic expressions this term relates specifically to female anatomy (Taj al-'Arus).

http://www.geocities.com/masad02/086.html





I would like to know what was the view of Ibn Abbas and the pious predecessors on this ayat. There seem to be many interpretations with slight variations between them. (Id like to know the original tafsir)

Salam a leikum

[Qatada]

asalaam alaikum


this might be useful bro;

The Quran Does NOT say that Sperm is created from between the backbone and Ribs! - Multaqa Ahl al-Hadeeth

:)

[salman]

^^akhee, the reason for multiple confusing interpretations is the fact that laypeople are giving these explanations/interpretations without asking the scholars, and not referring to classical scholars and their works. Ibn Kathir (rahimahullah - may Allah have mercy on him) is quoting a view of Ibn Abbas (radiAllahu anho - may Allah be pleased with him). According to the language of the Arab, what is mentioned by Ibn Abbas (radiAllahu anho) regarding "the backbone (or loins) of the man and the ribs of the woman" is correct. For more on classical/orthodox understanding of this ayah, please refer to these:

Qur'an 86:6-7 - Sperm is produced in backbone? refutation
The Quran Does NOT say that Sperm is created from between the backbone and Ribs!

Allahu A'lam (Allah knows best)

Edit:

*smile*, bro Qatada was quicker than me. akhee Qatada, I've removed the 2nd link from your post because that will only cause more confusion as it doesn't refer to classical/orthodox understanding of this ayah