> View of Ahlus Sunnah about imam abu hanifa?

[Sensationnz]

asallamalikum

can any one explain the hadith?


start with malik ibn anas view about abu hanifa with sanad sahih from the book al-dh3afa by aqeeli volume 4 :

حدثنا عبد الله بن أحمـد بن حنبل ، قـال حدثنا منصـور بن أبي مزاحـم ، قال حـدثنا مالـك بن أنس ، يقول : إنّ أبا حنيفة كاد الدين ، ومن كاد الدين فليس له دين .

narrated abdullah ibn ahmed ibn hanbal he said narrated mansoor ibn muzahim he said malik ibn anas told us : abu hanifa conspired against religion(islam) and whoever does this then he's not from the religion( clear takfeer )

also and other hadith from ibn udai in his book al-kamil volume 7:

حدثنا ابن أبي داود ، حدثنا الربيع بن سليمان الجيزي ، عن الحارث بن مسكين عن إبن القاسم ، قال : قال مالك : الداء العضال الهلاك في الدين ، وأبو حنيفة الداء العضال

narrated ibn abi dawwod narrated rabi3 ibn sulaiman from harith ibn miskeen from ibn al-qassim from malik he said: the greates incurable desease is the destruction in religion and abu hanifah is this incurable desease

we continue inshallah again from al-aqeeli in his book al-dh3afa volume 4 :

حدثنا معاذ بن المثنى ، حدثنا رجاء بن السنـدي ، قال سمعت عبـد الله بن إدريس يقول : كـان أبو حنيفـة ضالاً مضلاً ، وأبو يوسف فاسقاً من الفاسقين .
narrated muadh ibn al-muthanna narrated raja ibn al-sindi he said : i heard abdullah ibn idrees saying : abu hanifa was misguided and misguiding and abu yussof( one of the greatest hanafi scholars ) was fasiq ...
sufian thawri said: abu hanifah was asked to repent from kofr twice

نعيم بن حماد حدثنا يحيى بن سعيد ومعاذ بن معاذ ، سمعا سفيان الثوري يقول : أبو حنيفة استتيب من الكفر مرتين
also sufyan ibn uyaynah said when he was told about abu hanifah's death: alhamdulilleh (he thanked Allah!!!!!) he used to destroy the bases of religion one by one and nobody born in islam worst than him

قال نعيم عن الفزاري : كنت عند سفيان بن عيينة فجاء نعي أبي حنيفة ، فقال : الحمد لله ، كـان يهـدم الإسلام عروة عروة ، وما ولد في الإسلام أشر منه

reference :al-intiqa by ibn abdulbarr page 278

[salman]

Imam Abu Hanifa (rahimahullah) is a recognized Imam, faqeeh, and mujtahid among the Ahlus Sunnah. He was born among the noble Salaf (early taba tabieen according to one of the two opinions) and surpassed many of his contemporaries.

Regarding the attitude of some of the other Salaf Imamas (rahimahumllah) toward Imam Abu Hanifa (rahimahullah), there are few key points to note:

1) Some of them were simply jealous of him due to the fame and ilm Allah had given him. This sort of jelousy has existed among the contemporary scholars throughout the Islamic history and thus the scholars of jara wa tad'eel say that do not take criticism from the contemporary scholars at the face value.

2) Some Ahl al-Hadith had issue with Imam relaying extensively on ra'i, so some of the scholars dedicated small risala or chapters in their book to refute Imam Abu Hanifa's (rahimahullah) opinions in fiqh

3) Others accused him of having deviant beliefs such as the Qur'an is created and the issue of irjaa. The reason for this is becuase vast majority mu'tazilite were hanafis and the ahnaf differed with Ahl al-hadith on the issue of imaan (even thought as the latter scholars, Shayk ul-Islam ibn Taymiyyah (rahimahullah) pointed out the difference is only semantic). The Mu'tazilite hanafis, such as Bishr al-Marrisi and the Qadhi Ahmad ibn Abi Du'ad, attributed much of their deviant beliefs to their Imam (Abu Hanifa - rahimahulla) which he is free from, just as the modern day maturidis attribute their jahmism to the Imam. This is the reason why you will find contradictory statements by other Salaf Imams (rahimahumullah) about Imam Abu Hanifa (rahimahullah), specially the Imam of Ahlus Sunnah - Ahmad ibn Hanbal (rahimahullah). The explanation to this is that whenever Imam Ahmad (rahimahullah) heard good about Imam Abu Hanifa (rahimahullah), he praised him and whenever he heard about falsely attirbuted beliefs of Mu'tazilite to Imam he dispraised him. However, that which is established from Imam Ahmad (rahimahullah) with regards to Imam Abu Hanifah (rahimahullah), is what is reported by al-Marrudhi, where Imam Ahmad says: We know of no authentic reports from Imam Abu Hanifah (rahimahullah) that he said that the Qur'an was created.

As far these particular narrations, I will do a research but you should get the important points i mentioned above

and Allah knows best

[Sensationnz]

jazakallah khyr akhi, i would like explanation on the hadith if allah willing.

wsallam

[Umm Sufyaan]

i think the best thing to do is read these in context and approach it from a linguistic point of view as you'll get the weirdest people twisting hte saying of our scholars to suit their idiotic ideologies.
is it possible to get the arabic of ibn abdul barr's text quoted?

[optimist]

Abu Hanifa was one of the Tabi‘un, the generation after the Sahaba. How come somebody reporting about Abu Hanifa could be classified as "Hadith"! It is an insult to even the term "Hadith". I have no comments for the contents since the intention of the (un)authentic chain of narrators was to throw some insult.

[salman]

There is no need to specifically check these athaar's authenticity or their tafsir because these statements are authentic and the reasons explained above. All these Imams who criticized Imam Abu Hanifa have contradictory statements about him and to understand the reasons please read my previous post. The latter scholars have clarified the criticism and made it clear that we should not get into this matter or worry about it.

Regarding this the people are divided into three groups (two extreme and one moderate):

1) those who use these sorts of narrations to degrade or be little the Imam due to extremism by ahnaf or due to their own bigtory - whatever the case maybe - they shold check their own imaan and Islam before attacking a noble Imam among the Salaf.

2) most of the ahnaf go to extreme in praise of their Imam or when defending him from such criticism. So they also end up looking down on other Salaf Imams like Nu'eem ibn Humyad, who is also not safe from the criticisms of the scholar of Jarah wa Ta'deel.

3) the middle group, who do not go in extreme whether praising or dispraising the Imam (rahimahullah), they say there is no benefit in dwelling in these matters because Imam's status is well known & accepted and scholars of Jarah wa Ta'deel made their ijitihad about him. So they defend him from both extremes

And Allah knows best

@optimist

akhee, the well known opinion regarding Imam's birth is that he was born in the third generation: Taba Tabi'een.

Regarding using the term hadith, then you are wrong. How it is an insult when linguistically speaking hadith means saying of someone? It is true that, in Islam, when we say hadith we are normally referring to the sunnah (statements, actions etc.) of the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam), but the word from lingustic point of view in not only limited to the sunnah of the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam). That is why the muhadithoon has differentiated between the two: the sunnah of the Salaf (Sahaba, Tabi'een, Taba Tabi'een - may Allah have mercy on them) are known as athar (narration). However, most of common folk do not know about this. I did not about it either until an year ago, allhamdulillah.

Insha'Allah Let us be careful of evils of our tongues and not be quick to say things without knowledge:

Abu Huraira relates that Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said: "there will be a group of people in the end of the days who will bring you views that neither you or your forefathers every heard of. So be warned and let them be warned. Allow them not to misguide you and cause Fitna (i.e. in your hearts)" [Sahih Muslim: 15]

Abu Huraira narrated the prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم ) said: "In the end of the time there will be liars and fabricators who will report tales and stories that neither you or your fathers have ever heard . Be cautious of those so that they do not misguide you or tempt you" [Saheeh Ibn Habban: 6766]

Have you done the tahaqeeq (investigation) about all these narrators to reach the conclusion that they are not authentic or even have a doubt about them?

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

Have you done the tahaqeeq (investigation) about all these narrators to reach the conclusion that they are not authentic or even have a doubt about them?

Salam,

Contrary to the insult thrown against Abu Hanifa in these “hadiths”, read some of the comments made by others about Abu Hanifa.

Abdullah Ibn Mubarrak said: 'He was the Greatest of all those who was well-versed in Islamic laws'. Imam Shaf’i said: 'All those who study Fiqh, are children of Imam Abu Hanifah' (Islamic law). Imam Yahya Bin Mau’een said: 'there are no accusations on Imam Abu Hanifah Rahmatullah alayh, and he is clean from all lies'. Whoever wants to learn Fiqh, he is dependent upon Imam Abu Hanifah Rahmatullah alayh. The people should pray for Imam Abu Hanifah Rahmatullah alayh after their prayers. He was the one of the greatest scholars on the earth. When he used to recite the Qur’an at night, he used to cry so much that his neighbours used to pity him. The place were he died, Imam Abu Hanifah Rahmatullah alayh read the Qur’an seventy thousand times. He died on 15 Rajab, 150 A.H. At his funeral, there were so many people that the Salaah of Janazah had to be read six times. May Allah grant him peace and Blessings.
[Tazkarra Al Hufaz, Tarikh Ibn Kathir, By Hafidhh Dhabi and Hafidhh Ibn Kathir, “biography of Imam Abu Hanifah Rahmatullah alayh]


Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyyah says:
There is no doubt regarding Imam Abu Hanifah Rahmatullah alayh’s knowledge, people later attributed many lies to Imam Abu Hanifah Rahmatullah alayh, which were all untrue. The aim of such writings was to taint Imam Abu Hanifah Rahmatullah alayh.
[Minhaaj Al Sunnah Al Nabaweea, Vol./1, page. 259, By Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyyah]

Sufyan al-Thawri praised Abu Hanifa when he said: "We were in front of Abu Hanifa like small birds in front of the falcon,"

Abu Hanifa had his enemies. `Abdan said that he heard Ibn al-Mubarak say: "If you hear them mention Abu Hanifa derogatively then they are mentioning me derogatively. In truth I fear for them Allah's displeasure."

- Ibn Dawud al-Khuraybi: "Among the people [of learning] there are plenty of enviers and ignorant ones concerning Abu Hanifa."

Bishr al-Hafi, he said: "None criticizes Abu Hanifa except an envier or an ignoramus".


I can quote numerous others. What else is needed to prove this "hadiths" are just personal prejudice of some people. Do you deny all the above positive statements about Abu Hanifa that I quoted? Look at the wordings in the above “hadiths”? "Abu Hanifa conspired against Islam" and "no body born in islam worse than Abu Hanifa", etc. They are are simply some presonal prejudice. Hadiths are considered as second source of Islam and they are interpreted as equal to “revelations” from Allah. Even using simple common sense we can understand that these prejudices can not be part of Islam. We can build history, but not the structure of Islam upon these statements.

wassalam

[Sensationnz]

@ brother salma

Are you telling me that even though jelousy is not good in islam. Many of our great scholars were jelous? Did they follow quran and sunnah? i think these hadith are out of contents. but if someone can explain them and put em back it would be great inshallah.

wsallam

[salman]

Originally Posted by optimist

Salam,

Contrary to the insult thrown against Abu Hanifa in these “hadiths”, read some of the comments made by others about Abu Hanifa.

we are well aware of the comments made by scholars about Imam Abu Hanifa (rahimahullah) in his praise. It is pretty obvious from your posts akhee that you do not know much about this issue. Please read the 2nd post of this thread and try to digest it.

I have clarified the why such comments were made; the scholars mentioned good things about him when they heard good about him and when they heard about bad things (lies falsely attributed to him) about him they made statements like these. Due to confusions and other issues we find contradictory statements from the contemporaries of Imam Abu Hanifa (rahimahullah) or those who came little bit after him (i.e., Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal - rahimahullah).

That is why the latter scholars reconciled between the contradictory statements and said we should ignore the negatives ones.

Just to give you an example, you quoted Imam Yahya ibn Mu'een (rahimahullah), the teacher of Imam Ahmad and Imam Bukhari (rahimahumullah), praising Abu Hanifa (rahimahullah). But you will also find negative statements from him about Imam Abu Hanifa (rahimahullah) and he is one of the scholars of hadith who weakened the Imam in narrating ahadith.

In addition, you said the narrators, who narrated those athaar, are not authentic or had prejudice against the Imam but then you go on to quote Imam Sufyan al-Thawri (rahimahullah) who happened to be one of persons who made negative comment about Abu Hanifa (rahimahullah).

Originally Posted by optimist

I can quote numerous others.

there is no need for it since we are already aware of his status.

Originally Posted by optimist

What else is needed to prove this "hadiths" are just personal prejudice of some people.

you need to actually understand the reasoning behind these statements instead of passing such remarks.

Originally Posted by optimist

Do you deny all the above positive statements about Abu Hanifa that I quoted?

what do you think? This again shows that you did not read what I have said in my previous posts.

Originally Posted by optimist

Hadiths are considered as second source of Islam and they are interpreted as equal to “revelations” from Allah.

subhaanAllah akhee, you continue this even after I clarified you the different between the statements of the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam) and the statements of the Salaf (rahimahumullah). These are not the statements of the Prophet (sal-allahu alahyi wa sallam) so how can they be revelation from Allah!? These are athaar (narrations) of the Salaf. Please read the following paragraph carefully:

Regarding using the term hadith, then you are wrong. How it is an insult when linguistically speaking hadith means saying of someone? It is true that, in Islam, when we say hadith we are normally referring to the sunnah (statements, actions etc.) of the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam), but the word from linguistic point of view in not only limited to the sunnah of the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam). That is why the muhadithoon has differentiated between the two: the sunnah of the Salaf (Sahaba, Tabi'een, Taba Tabi'een - may Allah have mercy on them) are known as athar (narration). However, most of common folk do not know about this. I did not about it either until an year ago, allhamdulillah.

Originally Posted by optimist

Even using simple common sense we can understand that these prejudices can not be part of Islam. We can build history, but not the structure of Islam upon these statements.

these athaar have nothing to do with Islam or the Shari'ah so what are you getting at?

Originally Posted by sunnikid

Are you telling me that even though jelousy is not good in islam. Many of our great scholars were jelous? Did they follow quran and sunnah?

akhee, jealousy is of two types: ghibtah (envy that is free from malice) and hasad (destructive jealousy). The former is permissible in Islam whereas the latter one is prohibited:

What every Muslim is obliged to do, as you mentioned, is to love for his brother what he loves for himself of good things, and to hate for his brother what he hates for himself of bad things. This does not mean that he cannot like for himself what he likes for others. If he sees that his brother has something that he does not, and he wishes that he had it too, this is ghibtah (envy that is free from malice); if he wishes that the blessing would be taken away from them, this is called hasad (destructive jealousy).

Source

The scholars who had some sort of jealousy most likley fall into the first category; Allahu A'lam. And most of them were not jealous of him rather they made those statements because of point # 2 and # 3 I mentioned in post # 2.

Originally Posted by sunnikid

i think these hadith are out of contents. but if someone can explain them and put em back it would be great inshallah.

I have already explained and brought forward the context. Some of these narrations maybe weak but there do exists statements like these from the Salaf Imams and we need to understand why they said what they said instead of going into any of the two extreme.

and Allah knows best

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

Originally Posted by salman

I have clarified the why such comments were made; the scholars mentioned good things about him when they heard good about him and when they heard about bad things (lies falsely attributed to him) about him they made statements like these. Due to confusions and other issues we find contradictory statements from the contemporaries of Imam Abu Hanifa (rahimahullah) or those who came little bit after him (i.e., Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal - rahimahullah).

That is why the latter scholars reconciled between the contradictory statements and said we should ignore the negatives ones.

Salam,

I am aslo only asking "to ignore all the negatives ones" (like the latter scholars) since those statements are made prejudically as you said "they heard about bad things (lies falsely attributed to him) about him they made statements like these." We are in the same boat. Those statements are not authentic and made under false understanding. These statements should not be part of genuine hadiths and part of Islam. The issue is simple.

In addition, you said the narrators, who narrated those athaar, are not authentic or had prejudice against the Imam but then you go on to quote Imam Sufyan al-Thawri (rahimahullah) who happened to be one of persons who made negative comment about Abu Hanifa (rahimahullah).

The issue is also simple. The real sufyan Al Thawri who said "We were in front of Abu Hanifa like small birds in front of the falcon," would not make any such derogatory remark like "no body born in Islam worse than Abu Hanifa". There is also possibility that it is fabricated by some people and attributed to Sufyan to give more authenticity for the statement. You already know that there were many fabricated sayings in circulation. The people who fabricated hadiths used to attribute their fabrication to noble sahabas in order to give more authenticity and popularity for such sayings. This is an admitted fact.

wassalam