> Understanding hadith: Women and Dogs nullify the prayer

[optimist]

Discussion on the authenticity and fiqh of hadith about women and dogs nullifying the prayer if they pass in front of someone praying

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

sooo much to teach you

the methodollgy of ahlu-sunnah is much more contemplative than what your offering akhee. ALlow me to explain how dha'eef hadeeth are played in our hands

1. firstly, there are differing classes of dha'eef. there is no single idea that "your weak so your outa hear" methodology.

2. dhaeef hadeeth have classes, from partially weak, to severely weak.

3. many dhaeef hadeeth have what is known as "shawaahid" i.e. other narrational witnesses. In other words, if a chain is weak, there can be 1 or many more chains that also narrate the same event and therefore mark up the actual event to be an acceptable (hasan) reality. This is what is known as hasan li ghayrihi. This means that a chain is by itself weak, but with other chains, it is brought raised up to the level of being acceptable (hasan) and therefore not weak

4. dha'eef hadeeth were accepted (to a certain extent) in the issue of "fadhaa'il" or the realm of virtues and its encouragement as long as it did not undermine or go against what is known in the shariah from the Qur'an or the reliable hadeeth and as long as they were not severely weak, but slightly weak.

5. lastly, and I stated this before, most of the dha'eef hadeeth have already been opened, examined, and allocated in various academic works. for example, the Imaam of hadeeth of our time, Muhammad Nasr ad-Deen al-Albanee did a super extensive work, actually two works
a. Silsalat al-Hadeeth as-Saheeha
and
b. Silsalat al-Hadeeth adh-Dha'eefa.

these works are of immense value because it gave students of hadeeth and people of hadeeth the leverage, or at least strengthened that leverage, into knowing what hadeeth were weak instead of having to do the research themselves. Likewise, pretty much every hadeeth book that exist, has a commentary on it, and most of those commentaries have brought forth the authentication of a certain hadeeth (whether it was saheeh or not).

Salam,

You know that there were differences of opinion among Imams regarding acceptance of weak hadiths in rulings, fiqh. Anyhow, thank you for the explanation. Keep aside all the differences of opinion about a weak hadith and its acceptance in Islam. I want to point out to you a clear weak hadith classified as a sahih hadith. Can you tell me the logic behind the classification of the following hadith as a Sahih hadith?

Abu Huraira reported: THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH (may peace be upon him) SAID: A WOMAN, A DONKEY AND A DOG DISRUPT THE PRAYER, but something like the back of a saddle guards against that. (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1034)

Now look at another Sahih hadith;

Narrated 'Aisha: The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away, for I disliked to face him." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490)

Definitely, the first hadith is a fabrication even according to the verbal testification of Aisha, the mother of the believers. Then how come the first hadith was classified as Sahih hadith?

I will await your specific answer for this question.

Wassalam

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by optimist

Salam,

You know that there were differences of opinion among Imams regarding acceptance of weak hadiths in rulings, fiqh. Anyhow, thank you for the explanation. Keep aside all the differences of opinion about a weak hadith and its acceptance in Islam. I want to point out to you a clear weak hadith classified as a sahih hadith. Can you tell me the logic behind the classification of the following hadith as a Sahih hadith?

Abu Huraira reported: THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH (may peace be upon him) SAID: A WOMAN, A DONKEY AND A DOG DISRUPT THE PRAYER, but something like the back of a saddle guards against that. (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1034)

Now look at another Sahih hadith;

Narrated 'Aisha: The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away, for I disliked to face him." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490)

Definitely, the first hadith is a fabrication even according to the verbal testification of Aisha, the mother of the believers. Then how come the first hadith was classified as Sahih hadith?

I will await your specific answer for this question.

Wassalam

again oh grasshopper

I had the same conversation with modernists, some being outright kaafir on the topic at hand

here is part of my reply on the issue

the wording of the text singles out the black dog as a shaytan, making it worse than the generality of other dogs.

here is some comment in explanation to the Hadeeth in Saheeh Muslim

The passing of the above-mentioned in front of the person at prayer does not invalidate his prayer according to the vast majority of the Imams of Law, Salaf and Khalaf (early and late authorities) who concur that the meaning of "will cut off his prayer" is not literal but means: "will make his prayer imperfect" due to the distraction they will cause in people's hearts, while Imam Ahmad considered that only the passing of a black dog actually invalidates it. This was mentioned by Imam al-Nawawi in Sharh Sahih Muslim and al-Mubarakfuri in Tuhfa al-Ahwadhi.

as for the issue of it invalidating the prayer, it is disputed, but overall, it does not invalidate because most of the other hadeeth I had to review in the process of replying to your post only to move on to other things, is that the other hadeeths mention the degradation of the salah, the qiraat being reduced which does not invalidate the salaah.

I mentioned another hadeeth of the black dog by Abu Dhar I believe

this is one reason why the hadeeth was not nullified as the way you have viewed it simply because it was viewed in a different light by people who have knowledge than the light your viewing it.

[optimist]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

this is one reason why the hadeeth was not nullified as the way you have viewed it simply because it was viewed in a different light by people who have knowledge than the light your viewing it.

Salam,

Whatever conversation you had with any modernist, you have still not answered the question. I can agree with you, in the first hadith, when Abu Huraira says 'disrupt' the prayer it only means, as understood to the vast majority of the Imams of Law, "will make his prayer imperfect" due to the distraction they will cause in people's hearts. If the vast majorty of scholars are correct, Aisha, the mother of the believers, also understood the first hadith to mean that the prayer will not be annulled, but will make it only "imperfect". Even a child can understand, Aisha is still accusing Abu Huraira for comparing women with dogs and donkeys and she is clearly saying a woman will not make "prayer imperfect", citing herown example. Answer me whether Aisha made the prayer of the prophet imperfect??? I know you can not explain the contradition between the two hadiths. You are skillfully trying to evade from the real question when you bring up the issue of black dogs here.

Also one more thing. if the reason is just 'distraction' that will make once prayer "imperfect", how come just a dog, donkey and women is mentioned as distraction. There could be a number of things which may distract our prayer, may be more than a dog, donkey and a woman could distract.

Wassalam

[optimist]

Well, one more thing. If it is just distraction that will make our prayer imperfect, why "women" is mentioned alone, it should be "men" also. Similar like a women passing infront of a man is a distraction, a man passing infront of a women should be also distraction. You are simply guessing without any clear proof. Believe the words of Aisha, the mother of believers. There is nothing as such our prayer become "imperfect" by passing of a dog, donkey and a woman. The first hadith is weak and a fabrication as informed to us by Aisha (r). It should not be classified as a Sahih Hadith.

[salman]

:

bro, most of your questions are already covered here, please go through it carefully. You are attacking the authenticity of hadith, like always, only because it does not go well with your thinking and aql. This is not how we grade the ahadith. I wonder why do you not use the same logic to many similar examples found in the Qur'an.

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

:

Originally Posted by salman

bro, most of your questions are already covered here, please go through it carefully. You are attacking the authenticity of hadith, like always, only because it does not go well with your thinking and aql. This is not how we grade the ahadith. I wonder why do you not use the same logic to many similar examples found in the Qur'an.

Salam,

I found the following quite interesting comments in the link you provided.

Imam Al-Shafi'e said in his book ( Ikhtelaaf Al-hadith) discussing the Hadiths about Sutra nad whether passing in front someone would invaldiates the Salaah or not:

" If it is been said that dogs and donky passing in front someone who prays invalidates the Salaah, we reply to that saying: That cannot be because it is only one Hadith that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) said that if a dog, donkey and woman passing in front someone's praying invalidates the Salaah. Yet, this Hadith opposes many other hadiths ( Refering to hadith of Ibn Abbas passing with his donkey infront people praying, hadith of the Prophet praying while peple doing Tawaaf n front him, hadith of his salaah at Mina with no sutra, Hadith of the Prophet when he said if some of you pray with no sutra then you are allowed to pass in front him) that shows otherwise. hence, each of those many hadiths are more obvious and more confirmed than the Hadith about dogs, donkey and women.....This hadith is only accepted if it is obrigater but we do not what is the braged to know the obrigater!! Furthermore, it is been stated that the Prophet prayed while Aisha was laying between him and the Qibla and so it was statd that he prayed while carrying Umama where he puts down when he makes spjood and lft her up when he stands up. Thus, if that to invalidate his Slaah then the Prophet would not have paryed while they are in front him or praying not toward a sutra"

Underlining and highlighing is mine. Well, what else is needed to classify the first hadith as a weak one

Wassalam

[salman]

^akhee, please stop playing with the words of the Imam. Did he say that the hadith is dha'eef or we should discard it? He said that it opposese the other ahadith which say/imply that the salah (prayer) is not nullified. So the people of knowledge are arguing over the fiqh implication (whether salah is nullified or not). They are not arguing over its authenticity or dogs, donkeys, and women do not decrease the reward of the salah.

You are not arguing about the fiqhi implication, but you want to reject this hadith and the whole ruling because it does not go with your aql! There is a huge difference between what you are saying and what the people of knowledge have said: you are swimming in a complete different ocean my brother.

In the science of hadith, a hadith opposing other ahadith does not always mean that the whole hadith is dha'eef or we should discard it. It could very well mean that some of its wording is incorrect or one of the narrators made a mistake. A lot more factors are involved and it is not plain simple as you try to put it. If the Imam as-Shafi'i (rahimahullah) being far far more knowledgeable than you did not say that we should discard this hadith despite his confirmation of problem in its wording, how can you then say that we should discard it because it is dha'eef?

Allahu A'lam

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

If the Imam as-Shafi'i (rahimahullah) being far far more knowledgeable than you did not say that we should discard this hadith despite his confirmation of problem in its wording, how can you then say that we should discard it because it is dha'eef?

Salam,

As it is clear, Aisha (r) is saying in the second hadith to discard the first hadith since there is no such thing as a women causing "imperfect" or "invalid" a prayer. I believe, it is only Aisha (r), who is the most appropriate person, and no one else on earth, can give a verdict on the truthfulness of saying attributed to the prophet in the first hadith and she has given a verdict in the second hadith and the matter should be closed.

In the science of hadith, a hadith opposing other ahadith does not always mean that the whole hadith is dha'eef or we should discard it. It could very well mean that some of its wording is incorrect or one of the narrators made a mistake. A lot more factors are involved and it is not plain simple as you try to put it.

This is not an issue where narrators has made any mistake, or wording is incorrect. In the second hadith, Aisha (r) is giving a verdict on the first hadith. It should be sufficient for us to decide under which catergory the first hadith (report) should be included.

I will not post again on this thread.

Wassalam