> Dicussion on the authenticity and necessity of Hadiths!

[optimist]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

Your question cannot be solved with the correct answer. The corretc answer is that hadeeths are the recorded traditions of the prophet.

Salam,

I agree with you

The Allah said that the prophet does not speak of his own desire

What does it mean the prophet “does not speak of his own desire”? The verse does not say each and every word spoken by the prophet a revelation from Allah. Let me give about a page of breakdown into this wrong interpretation that you have provided. The verse in question is this;

He does not speak from his desires; Verily It is nothing but inspiration being inspired. (53:3-4)

From a linguistic point of view, we note that Allah says 'In Huwa ila wahe yuha', this literally translates to ‘It is nothing but inspiration being inspired’. The word 'Huwa' is very indicative in this verse, it literally means 'it', but that is not all. The word 'it' in English does not give a gender, 'it' could refer to a masculine or a feminine equally. However, in Arabic the word 'Huwa' refers to the masculine (as opposed to the word Hiya which refers to the feminine). The word 'Huwa' here refers to the Quran which is masculine. What all this means is that in this verse, Allah is specifically speaking about the inspiration of the Quran to the Prophet . Allah is not speaking about ordinary speech of the prophet!

The Quran explains it very clearly that the speech of the Prophet that is by Wahi is nothing else but the Quran. Allah explains what is being revealed to the Prophet:

Ha Mim: A REVELATION from the Beneficent, the Merciful Allah: A BOOK, whereof the Ayat are explained in detail; - a QURAN in Arabic, for people who understand - (41: 1-3).

The Messenger himself is made to confirm that the Wahi he is receiving is the Quran:

‘And this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches?’ (6:19)

Allah Challenges people to produce something similar to the Revelation being sent down to the Messenger. Let us read these challenges:

‘And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave Muhammad), then bring a Surah similar to it, and call your witnesses beside Allah if ye are truthful?’ (2:23)

Here we notice that as a challenge to WHAT ALLAH REVEALS to His slave, the people are told to bring a Surah. Here, Allah’s challenge to ‘bring a Surah similar to it’ against ‘that which We reveal unto Our slave’, establishes that What Allah is revealing to His slave is composed of Surahs, i.e. it is the Quran.

Then we see that the hypocrites were afraid that a Surah might be revealed to show their hypocrisy. The Prophet’s ordinary speech was always present, but the Quran tells us that it was a Surah that they were afraid would reveal their hypocrisy:

‘The hypocrites fear lest a Surah (chapter of the Quran) should be sent down to them telling them plainly of what is in their hearts. Say: Go on mocking, surely Allah will bring forth what you fear?’ - (9: 64)

If everything that the Messenger was saying was Wahi, then they did not have to wait for a Surah. Also, not only the hypocrites but the believers also used to wait for SURAHS to see Allah’s commandment.

‘And those who believe say: Why has not a Surah (chapter of the Quran) been revealed? But when a decisive chapter is revealed and fighting is mentioned therein you see those in whose hearts is a disease look to you with the look of one fainting because of death. Woe to them then!’ (47: 20)

Then Allah forbids people from asking unnecessary questions when the Quran is revealed.

‘O you who believe! Do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.’ -(5: 101)

The above restriction would have been meaningless if Prophet Muhammad had received other revelations besides the Quran. This proves that there were no other revelations besides the Quran.

Moreover, we can see at some places in the Quran, Allah admonishes the prophet. If everything the prophet was doing was based on revelation such a thing would not happen.

In addition to the Quranic evidence, even the books of Hadith also refute this baseless claim that the Messenger was receiving other revelations besides the Quran:

Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 52, Number 283: Narrated Abu Juhaifa: I asked Ali, Do you have the knowledge of any Divine Inspiration besides what is in Allah's Book?" 'Ali replied, "No, by Him who splits the grain of corn and creates the soul. I don't think we have such knowledge, but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Quran, and we have what is written in this paper as well. I asked, what is written in this paper? He replied, (The regulations of) blood-money, the freeing of captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel.

and Allah made it obligatory on mankind to follow Muhammad. There is a rule in the shariah which states that Athere is no obligation where there is inability". What that means is that Allah is not going to obligate something upon His slaves EXCEPT that they by default have the ability to perform it. So if he ordered us to follow him, then it by default entails that Allah would as well save his sunnah from corruption.

Let me also give you a page of breakdown for this point.

The assumption here is that since Allah has commanded us to follow the prophet, and in order to follow the prophet it is obligatory for us to follow hadiths. In other words, when it says ‘follow Allah’ it means follow the Quran and ‘follow the prophet’ means follow the hadiths. There are different ankles for this discussion. All the points are to explained in detail for a proper understanding.

First, we may well ask one question. Who among the companions of the Prophet ever heard any of Allah's revelations directly from Allah? No one! Consequently, they cannot obey Allah except through the prophet’s delivery of the Quran. This makes it necessary for Allah to command people to obey the messenger since he is the one who delivers to them God's message. Moreover, the Quran was revealed to the prophet in order that he would deliver it to a community, which was primarily composed of idol worshippers but also many of the followers of the previous scripture like the Jews and the Christians. Let us assume that the command in the Quran did not contain the phrase "obey the Messenger" but was only a command to "Obey God". Immediately, the Jews and the Christians would say: “we already obey God, God has sent us the scripture and we obey it!"
It is also pertinent to note that, the direction to ‘follow Allah and follow the Messenger’ is followed with clear information regarding what the duty of the Messenger is:

“And obey Allah and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that only a clear deliverance of the message is (incumbent) on Our messenger (5:92)

And obey Allah and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger devolves only the clear delivery (of the message) (64:12)

Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and nothing rests on the messenger but clear delivering (of the message) - (24:54)

Now, if we look at these Ayat, we notice that Allah has clearly pointed out that the duty of the Messenger is only to deliver [Balagha] the message. Here we will look at the term Balagha used in the Quran. The term Balagha means the delivery of the Message. Note the following verse:

This is (the Quran) a delivery [balaghu] for Humans; let them take warning there from, and let them know that He is the One God; let the People of understanding take heed - (Ch.14: Ver.52)

The above Ayah points to IT [haza] meaning THIS IS (pointing to the Quran itself) is the delivery of the Messenger. This is further clarified in the following Ayah:

O Messenger! Proclaim [Baligh] what is sent down to you [ma Unzila Ilaika] from your Lord. If you do not, you would not have fulfilled and proclaimed His message: - (5:67)

Here, we may pose for a moment and have another look at the term again, “Obey Allah and the Messenger”. Allah always uses the word "MESSENGER". The Quran NEVER says "Obey Allah and obey Muhammad". The word "Messenger" means the ONE WHO BRINGS A MESSAGE. So, by this definition when Allah says, "Obey the Messenger" what does that mean? The Messenger is bringing Message from Allah, and therefore we must obey the Message He is Giving us. This is equivalent to obeying Allah as it is ALLAH who is sending the Message through the Messenger.

'He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah.' - [4: 80]

One great example of the distinction between obeying the messenger and obeying the prophet Muhammad, a human being, can be seen from what Allah told Prophet Muhammad’s wives, in Surah 33.

“O wives of the prophet, if any of you commits gross sin, the retribution will be doubled for her. This is easy for Allah to do. Any one of you obeys Allah and His messenger, and leads a righteous life, We will grant her double the recompense and We have prepared for her a generous provision”. - (33: 30-31)

Notice the order here for the prophet’s wives to obey the messenger, not their husband or Muhammad. If Allah had said obey Muhammad that would have made unconditional obedience of their husband a decree.

Look from another angle: the Quran is Allah's kalaam (word) and within that kalaam Allah also orders the Messenger to convey many instructions to us. The word that means ‘SAY’ occurs in AL-Quran 332 times. We have to obey all of these instructions conveyed though the Messenger. Allah also addresses in the first person along with making his Messenger to address People. We are to obey both types of Ayat, Allah's first person as well as What Allah orders His Messenger to 'SAY' to people. Both the types of these direct statements are to be found in AL-Quran. Obedience to these instructions is not obedience to Messenger’s own laws but it is directly to Allah's laws.

Following Allah and his messenger does not mean following Quran and following the hadiths. The following Verses establish that obedience to Allah and His Messenger is ONE and the SAME thing:

‘And a proclamation from God and His Apostle [is herewith made] unto all mankind on this day of the Greatest Pilgrimage: “God disavows all who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him, and [so does] His Apostle. Hence, if you repent, it shall be for your own good; and if you turn away, then know that you can never elude God!” And unto those who are bent of denying the truth give thou [O Prophet] the tiding of grievous chastisement.’ - [Ch. 9: Ver.3]

Now, did the people themselves hear Allah’s announcement of immunity? The answer is No! It was only from the LIPS of His Messenger, the prophet Muhammad, that they heard this announcement of immunity. Yet it has come from both Allah and His Messenger. Or does anybody assume that one announcement came from Allah and ANOTHER from the Messenger?

It is absolutely necessary that in order to follow ‘Allah and his Messenger’ we must have an objective standard. The following of Allah does not in any way mean that we follow our wishful thinking of Allah. To follow Allah means to follow His law revealed in the Book. The intrinsic point is that, ‘to follow the Messenger’ does not mean that a person or a group of people make their own collection of Messenger’s sayings and start to follow them. Such an understanding is wrong. And even assuming for a moment that the Hadith was the only source by which we could follow the Messenger, then it was the emergent and primary need of Islam, just like the Quran, to preserve the Hadith with God’s warranty, so that each one of us would have been able to obey the Messenger in all certainty. But the fact that it has never happened, itself shows the fallacy of such an argument. Therefore, the understanding that we are supposed ‘to obey Allah and the Messenger’ separately, is totally incorrect.

Islam is a collective system for life, in which we are collectively subservient to the Law of the Quran. It is the duty of an Islamic Republic to legislate the clauses and sub-clauses of Quran's basic Shari'at laws or principles, according to the social, cultural and geo-political conditions of the time, by consensus (means in consultation with all). It is precisely because of this, the Messenger was commanded to consult his companions (Quran 3:159 & 42:38) and followers. But Allah did not go into detail because He, in His omniscience, knows that the mechanisms required for a government in the Seventh Century are very different indeed from those required today although the principles are the same. Allah left the detail to be filled in, and changed, by each generation as conditions may dictate provided always that the principle of 'mutual consultation' laid down by God in the Quran is observed.

From the above we must be able to comprehend why the Quran did not give us the details of clauses and sub-clauses of its basic principles or Shari'at laws. And also this should answer our question, as to why the Messenger did not give us in concrete shape, the corollaries of the laws of Allah, those he had imposed in his system of government of the time. The statements and principal laws of Quran were meant to remain permanent and absolute for all times. In the light of these laws, whatever clauses were approved by the assembly of those times were not preserved, as it was not necessary. The disciples of the Messenger were very much conscious of this too, that is why they also did not feel the need to preserve the Hadith.

This system, legislation of the sub-clauses and bylaws, developed by the Muslim Ummah from time to time after due consultation are to be voluntarily obeyed and respected. That, of course, is the real intent of chapter 4, verse 59, "O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those in authority among you..." Obeying those in authority is much more likely to be realized if we respect them and support their government because we put them in power of our own free will.

It therefore follows that wherever the Quran speaks about 'obedience to Allah and his Messenger' it means a system that has been established to implement God's laws. Let us see what one of the greatest of scholars, Maulana Maudoodi has to say about this. In Surah, Al-Ma'ida Quran says:

“The retribution for those who fight Allah and His messenger, and spread mischief in the land, is to be killed, or crucified, or to cut off their hands and feet on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land..." - (5:33)

Endorsing the above Ayat, Maulana Maudoodi writes in Tafheemul Quran:

"To fight against Allah and His Messenger means waging war against the system which the Islamic government has established." (Tafheemul Quran vol. I, page 465)

Thus 'to obey Allah and Messenger' does not mean to obey the 'Quran and the Hadith' according to our own personal standards. It is abiding by the laws of God contained in the Quran imposed by the central authority. It is the duty of the central authority to carry out and implement these laws of God. This is the actual meaning of 'to obey Allah and the Messenger.'

So the correct answer is that hadeeth are the recorded sayings, approavals, and actions of the Messenger of Allah, and everything the messenger did was revelation of Allah. EVEN when the messenger made a mistake, Allah turned that mistake into a guidance and a benefit for us.

I have already explained this point above

However, I know that while this answer is more than sufficient, the fact that Parwez contaminated some of the views of muslims entails that this sufficiency is not enough, hence I told you that I would form an entirely new thread specifically dealing with the obligatory nature of the second half of revelation i.e. the sunnah.

I look forward to read this new thread.

Wassalam

[Assad]

Originally Posted by optimist

In addition to the Quranic evidence, even the books of Hadith also refute this baseless claim that the Messenger was receiving other revelations besides the Quran:

----
Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 52, Number 283: Narrated Abu Juhaifa: I asked Ali, Do you have the knowledge of any Divine Inspiration besides what is in Allah's Book?" 'Ali replied, "No, by Him who splits the grain of corn and creates the soul. I don't think we have such knowledge, but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Quran, and we have what is written in this paper as well. I asked, what is written in this paper? He replied, (The regulations of) blood-money, the freeing of captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel.
----
Your argument is silly one here and infact does not prove anything. Quran is the revelation of Allah to the Prophet Muhammad SAW. And Prophet Muhammad was the Messenger of Allah.

Ali r.a. according to this hadith deny any Divine revelation apart from that which was revealed in the Book of Allah. Now what is the book of Allah ? Is it the Quran ? But Quran is the recitation from Almighty Lord to Prophet to guide the mankind.

In this report which you quote, It only proves that Ali r.a. deny having received any revelation apart from in the revelation to the Prophet.

Also note Ali r.a. reply:

He replied, (The regulations of) blood-money, the freeing of captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel.

.....and we have what is written in this paper as well.

Written on paper? Quran was memorised and as well as written. If he is referring to Quran than why doesnt he mention about memorization ?

He doesn't quote anything from the Quran but the Islamic principles and laws. If he only meant to say Quran than he would have simply replied that there is no other revelation other than the Quran.


It is just like If you own a book called "LifeKit" which have 2 series and you own them both. I come to you and ask you that "Optimist do you have any book other than LifeKit which is written by the same author?" and you reply with "No". It doesnt mean that you are saying that you only have part 1 of the book!

[al-boriqee]

Im not going to respond to this. inshllah, when i actually have time, I will just prepare what I stated I was going to prepare on this subject, and 60 percent of the above imbecility will be cleared up. After this preparation I will then add a section of repelling the shuboohaat, for example the humorous "huwa and hiya" argument to prove it is the Qur'an and not the lafdh mutlaqan of the messenger.

inshallah these satanic doubts will be flushed down the drain of inacceptance once and for all bi ithnillah

[optimist]

Originally Posted by Acid

Ali r.a. according to this hadith deny any Divine revelation apart from that which was revealed in the Book of Allah. Now what is the book of Allah ? Is it the Quran ? But Quran is the recitation from Almighty Lord to Prophet to guide the mankind.

Salam,

Ha Mim: A REVELATION from the Beneficent, the Merciful Allah: A BOOK, whereof the Ayat are explained in detail; - a QURAN in Arabic, for people who understand - (41: 1-3).

‘And this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches?’ (6:19)

“Shall I then seek a Ruler other than Allah? When He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) distinctly detailed” (6: 114)

A Book revealed to you-- so let there be no straitness in your breast on account of it-- that you may warn thereby, and a reminder close to the believers.(7:2)

We have revealed to you a Book, which is a Reminder for you: will you not then use your Aqal (21:10)

“And certainly We have brought them a Book, which We have detailed with knowledge, a guidance and mercy for a people who believe” - (7: 52)

Wassalam

---------- Post added at 09:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

Im not going to respond to this. inshllah, when i actually have time, I will just prepare what I stated I was going to prepare on this subject, and 60 percent of the above imbecility will be cleared up. After this preparation I will then add a section of repelling the shuboohaat, for example the humorous "huwa and hiya" argument to prove it is the Qur'an and not the lafdh mutlaqan of the messenger.

inshallah these satanic doubts will be flushed down the drain of inacceptance once and for all bi ithnillah

Salam,

I look forward to read the same, Insha Allah

wassalam