> Dicussion on the authenticity and necessity of Hadiths!

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by Acid

:

I dont understand that why would any Muslim even suspect If we should follow the Hadiths or not. To doubt it goes against all spiritual logic.

A Prophet is a human appointed by God to spread His Message. Hence Prophet speaks through the command of God or a representation of Gods message to the mankind. If Prophet tells us anything , make any commandment or laws than we are obliged to follow the Prophet because Prophet wont make his own laws unlike what you may call man-made laws.

If Prophet commands us to do something than Its obligatory on all of us. If you reject this than you are rejecting the commandments of God's representative on earth.

Regarding the authenticity of Sunnah through ahadiths, the above post by bro Salman has explained it comprehensively.

I believe that the Muhadithoon were not infallible but the process through which they verified each reports for the Quran and the Sunnah was a Divinely planned and executed and hence we have the same Quran as revealed to Prophet Muhammad SAW.

yeah I know, its hard to understand. But me being (or was) a product of westernism in the past, I am a bit more able to break down these tendencies that are ultimately anti-thetical to the Islamic personality, behavior, and do not run part n parcel with Islam.

One of the most powerful arguments that is able to repudiate these tendencies is that we have to educate people that the entire Qur'an has actually come to us through narrations. If hadeeth were not, Qur'an would not have been. The Qur'an, you an say, is a mutawaatir hadeeth.

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by optimist

Salam,

Well, I have a doubt. May be I would not have such a doubt if i had read this article few months before. Regarding Quran I can agree that it is divinely authenticated, but regarding sunna there is no divine authentication. Here we assume the infallibility of Aql of some people who authenticated those reports. According to your explanation, we are supposed to assume each and every hadith "authenticated" by human being as infallible and consider them the true "sunna" of the prophet. And you are interpretinig that obeying the messenger means obeying and following these reports "athenticated" by human being as being sunna of the prophet. If obeying the prophet means following the hadiths, first it has to be proved that there hadiths are divinely authenticated.

wassalam

when I get a chance, inshallah I will address these doubts inshallah

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

The Qur'an was transmitted through ahadith and if we were to follow your logic then we cannot trust the Qur'an either. How do you know that the Qur'an is divinely authenticated because the Qur'an says so? How do you know what the Qur'an says in fact has reached you correctly!? Were it not the same men, who transmitted and authenticated the ahadith, transmitted and authenticated the Qur'an? If this is the case, why accept one but reject the other?

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

One of the most powerful arguments that is able to repudiate these tendencies is that we have to educate people that the entire Qur'an has actually come to us through narrations. If hadeeth were not, Qur'an would not have been. The Qur'an, you an say, is a mutawaatir hadeeth.

Salam,

If hadiths were collected, preserved and protected same like the Quran why majority of hadiths in circulation during the “authentication process” were fabricated? Why hadiths had to be authenticated in the first place? We don't hear anything like "fabricated" verse, “weak verse” or "authentic" verse when it comes to the Quran. Allah has wowed to protect the Quran and it does not matter what method Allah used to protect the same. In the case of Quran, the whole of it had been carefully written down and arranged in a sequence as directed by the Prophet himself before his death, which is certainly not the case of hadiths.

Wassalam

---------- Post added at 03:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 AM ----------

Originally Posted by salman

2 - You should at least know that the sahih ahadith are also wahy and Allah Ta'ala promised to protect His wahy. Therefore, there is also divine authentication for sahih ahadith.

3 - No one claims these muhadithoon were infallible; however, there is a whole science to check authenticity of ahadith and that includes the ahadith which carried the Qur'an.

Salam,

You have no proof to claim sahih hadiths are Wahy from Allah. You contradict yourself in just two statements. You admit these people were not infallible. And you refer to a man made science of hadiths. You are trying to project the verses of Quran were collected and arranged through the same "authentication process" as the hadith. You are completely wrong.

wassalam

[salman]

^brother, answer my simple questions:

why trust the Qur'an when it has come via ahadith and same man-made science was used to authenticate theses ahadith, which carried the Qur'an!? Why do you trust these ahadith but reject the other ahadith: Sunnah of Allah's Messenger (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam). By your logic, we can trust either of them!? So why the double standards!?

How do you know that what Allah has vowed in fact are the words of Allah and not corrupted or changed by men who authenticate these ahadith? Do you just say because the Qur'an says so when you are not sure whether it is preserved or not because it came through ahadith and man-made science was used to authenticate those ahadith?

We are not disputing which method Allah chose or why did He chose that method. We are simply telling you that the method which is used to preserve the Qur'an is IN FACT the same method which is used to preserve the Sunnah of Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) and athar of the Salaf. Whether Prophet (peace be upon him) directed it or not has no relevancy here - it were the same men, who memorized, wrote down, and transmitted the Qur'an, transmitted the ahadith. You cannot accept one but reject the other; it is either both or NONE!

You ask there is no proof that sahih ahadith are wahy of Allah but I say the proof is the Book of Allah and statements within it. For example, Allah Azza wa Jal says (interpretation of the meaning):

Your companion (Muhammad SAW) has neither gone astray nor has erred. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only a Revelation revealed. [Surah an-Najm (53): 2-4]

So Allah Azza wa Jal made it clear that in whatever Messenger of Allah (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam) said in regard to religious matters then that is wahy from Allah. So if is it established that a statement attributed to Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam) in fact is his statement then you have no right or excuse to reject it given that you believe in Allah, his final Messenger (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam), and the last day.

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by optimist

Salam,

If hadiths were collected, preserved and protected same like the Quran why majority of hadiths in circulation during the “authentication process” were fabricated?

listen brother. I had ultimately clarified this to you in either the first page of this thread or another thread. All that Bukharee knew, and what others knew, just because they did not add them in their collections DOES NOT MAKE THEM FABRICATED. I told you before, most of them are repetitions. I don;t ever want to hear you profess this lie again. the ratio between acceptable hadeeth in Islam vs fabricated in Islam is like
250>1. We have books called "Mawdu'aat" containing ALL the fabricated hadeeth. If you wan to know what a fabricated hadeeth is, refer to those books. because there is no where else on the face of the planet were fgabrciated hadeeth are at except where the muhadithoon placed these fabrications.

I don't ever want to hear not one more time this lie ever again.

Why hadiths had to be authenticated in the first place?

the same reason why the Qur'an had to be authenticated. when one of the companions got it wrong, the other would correct it. With the Qur'an, everyone memorized it, with hadeeth, not everyone memorized it. Thats the only difference. Otherwise, the are both the same. Our Qur'an actually comes from hadeeth. Its a mutawatir hadeeth. The same narrators who gave us the Qur'an are the same narrators who narrayted the hadeeth that you find problematic, all from the same source narrators.

This is why we find the hadeeth rejection sect quite strange, even though we understand that they operate on pristine ignorance, it is strange that they don;t understand this basic fundamental. That is why the early Imaams would say
"THe whole of the religion is the isnaad" (meaning of the narrations) WHY. because our Qur'an and or Sunnah that both Allah revealed to Muhammad came through this route. The rejection of one to the exclusion of the other is the greatest logical fallacy of this century, which is another reason why we find it strange that no one in history came up with this sectarian point until western influence brought this ideology into our lands and thus afflicted some of the Muslims with this disease that no one before us was afflicted with.

We don't hear anything like "fabricated" verse, “weak verse” or "authentic" verse when it comes to the Quran.

actually, yeah we do. I have a ton of research work on this topic. the very same people who began with the hadeeth, ultimately did the same for the Qur'an.
in other words, apostasy is the most logical conclusion of the hadeeth rejectors sect.

here is an example of a person who followed this sectarian understand and the end result of what it made him do

Hello dear Muslims!

I have abandoned Islam because it is a viral and dangerous cult under the disguise of organized religion. I was an intellectual Muslim who found much truth in the opinions of Mr. Amjad and other related scholars. I will admit that at first I was in an emotional crisis which led me to condemn myself and my revered religion but on the other hand I will stress that by becoming an atheist (who isn't an atheist with regard to all other gods except his own, anyway?) I have come to understand that Islam, like any other religion, is a full-grown cult, but unlike any other religion, it is a nefarious one. Excuse me if this sounds arrogant and mean to you, but that's how I think about Islam now. But be assured that I'm not going to strap a bomb on my body, run in a fully occupied mosque and roar "La ilahe" and push the pink button (didn't you know all atheists are gay!?). Neither am I going to discriminate or hate Muslims or think that all Muslims are terrorists. How can I be angry at them? I can't be angry at somebody who has a tumour in his head. Similarly I can't be angry at the Muslims who have been brainwashed and fed with lies since their childhood. Most of the Muslims I know are good people as I'm sure many of you here are, too, but it isn't because of the supposed superior morality of Islam. The good comes from their inner selves and they are good people despite of Islam and not because of it. Albert seems to agree with me:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein

Isn't it pathetic that religious people need hope of paradise and fear of hell in order to act morally? As an atheist I can claim to be morally superior than you, because I don't need the fear or awe of a watching, jealous, sadistic God in order to be kind and loving to my fellow human beings. All a person really needs is the Golden Rule, which states that you should treat others the way you would like to be treated. This is such a simple truth that can be recognized by anyone with a sane mind. Well, except when you're a Muslim who has cheerfully enslaved his mind to this cult, then you can't accept the Golden Rule because the cult founder himself didn't act according to it.

Anyway, I'm not interested in engaging in a great debate here regarding the veracity of Islam or any other religion. I don't have the time for that. If you are interested in the emotional reasons for why I left Islam please read my testimony here:

******deleted******
To understand why it is rational to leave Islam please spend some time reading the debates at this page:
***deleted******
Hopefully you're not living in an islamic country where a handful men of a certain authority have decided what the nation should read or not read. Isn't this clear proof that there is something utterly wrong with Islam? If God has spoken through the Qur'an and if their is clear guidance in it then why is it so hard to accept opposing views to it? After all you can buy a Qur'an in every well-assorted book-shop in every country that respects freedom of thought. But islamic countries are still in the dark ages. You have to put your life at risk if you want to read critical material pertaining to Islam, let alone publicly say something against it. Falsehood needs censorship, not Truth.

If you want to save me from hell-fire don't pray but start defending your faith seriously against men like Ali Sina. At the moment he is debating Khaled Zaheer and Javed Ahmed Ghamidi, and as far as I can tell they are doing very poorly. Is this all the islamic world has to offer? Indeed the whole islamic clerisy is nothing but intellectually bankrupt.

This is pretty much the end result of Hadeeth are fabricated sect because i remember debating this lunatic before.

at any rate, I will prepare inshallah, an ultimate thesis i guess on this topic. I will call it
"Islam is the Sunnah and the Sunnah is Islam, and one cannot be established without the other"

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

^brother, answer my simple questions:
why trust the Qur'an when it has come via ahadith and same man-made science was used to authenticate theses ahadith, which carried the Qur'an!? .

Salam,

No one can compare the preservation of quran with hadith. For the preservation of Quran the prophet himself made supervision and the entire quran was recorded and arranged even before the death of the prophet. The Ilm-al-Jarh wa al-Tadil is specific only for hadiths. And it was never made applicable for Quran. I already told you, this is the reason why there is no "weak" verse, "authentic" verse, etc when it comes to Quran.

You ask there is no proof that sahih ahadith are wahy of Allah but I say the proof is the Book of Allah and statements within it. For example, Allah Azza wa Jal says (interpretation of the meaning):

Your companion (Muhammad SAW) has neither gone astray nor has erred. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only a Revelation revealed. [Surah an-Najm (53): 2-4]

So Allah Azza wa Jal made it clear that in whatever Messenger of Allah (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam) said in regard to religious matters then that is wahy from Allah.

When Allah says 'In Huwa ila wahe yuha', this literally translates to ‘It is nothing but inspiration being inspired’. The word 'Huwa' is very indicative in this verse, it literally means 'it', but that is not all. The word 'it' in English does not give a gender, 'it' could refer to a masculine or a feminine equally. However, in Arabic the word 'Huwa' refers to the masculine (as opposed to the word Hiya which refers to the feminine). The word 'Huwa' here refers to the Qur'an which is masculine. What all this means is that in this verse, Allah is specifically speaking about the inspiration of the Qur'an to the Prophet.

It is only Quran which is Wahi to the prophet.

Wassalam

[optimist]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

listen brother. I had ultimately clarified this to you in either the first page of this thread or another thread. All that Bukharee knew, and what others knew, just because they did not add them in their collections DOES NOT MAKE THEM FABRICATED. I told you before, most of them are repetitions. I don;t ever want to hear you profess this lie again. the ratio between acceptable hadeeth in Islam vs fabricated in Islam is like 250>1. We have books called "Mawdu'aat" containing ALL the fabricated hadeeth. If you want to know what a fabricated hadeeth is, refer to those books. because there is no where else on the face of the planet were fgabrciated hadeeth are at except where the muhadithoon placed these fabrications.

I don't ever want to hear not one more time this lie ever again.

Salam,

I can agree with you there is only 250>1 fabrication if you can prove me that all the fabricated hadiths were collected and recorded and available now as you stated? Please read from islamonline(dot)net from this link and the problem with fabrication of hadiths is not as simple as you are trying to project.

Fabricated Hadiths Causes of Fabrication - IslamOnline.net - Living Sharia'h

I quote one statement from this article;

According to some sources, the zanadiqah concocted about fourteen thousand hadiths.(1) Muhammad Rashid Rida mentioned that some scholars of Hadith said that when `Abdul-Karim ibn Abi Al-`Awja’ was to be executed he said, “I fabricated four thousand hadiths in which I made the lawful prohibited and the prohibited permissible” (Ibn Al-Jawzi 1:37). By fabricating hadiths, the zanadiqah did a great damage to the history of Islam (Ibn Al-Jawzi 1:37).

the same reason why the Qur'an had to be authenticated. when one of the companions got it wrong, the other would correct it. With the Qur'an, everyone memorized it, with hadeeth, not everyone memorized it. Thats the only difference. Otherwise, the are both the same.

It is not the only difference. You are forgetting the fact that the prophet himself supervised the collection and arrangement of each and every verse in its final form before his death. At no point of time there occured any need to authenticate the Quran. Hadiths had to be authenticated because there were lot of weak hadiths in circulation. There was no authentication process for the Quran. No quran verse had to be set aside due to repetition, weakness, unauthentic, etc. I hope you will agree with me at the least for this point.

Our Qur'an actually comes from hadeeth. Its a mutawatir hadeeth.

Again you are desperately trying to compare the collection of the Quran with hadiths. Each and every verse of the Quran dictated by the prophet were preserved as it is without missing even any letter. The Hadith, including Mutawatir hadith were recorded as reported speech. Even assuming Quran is a mutawatir hadith, according to scholars there are only 14 or so mutawatir hadiths. Moreover even on this point there is no clear agreement among the scholars.

THe whole of the religion is the isnaad" (meaning of the narrations) WHY. because our Qur'an and or Sunnah that both Allah revealed to Muhammad came through this route. The rejection of one to the exclusion of the other is the greatest logical fallacy of this century

It is only Quran which is revealed to the prophet. Hadith is not a revelation. Can you show me any evidence from Quran that Hadith is a revelation from Allah?

Wassalam

[Assad]

Originally Posted by optimist

It is not the only difference. You are forgetting the fact that the prophet himself supervised the collection and arrangement of each and every verse in its final form before his death. At no point of time there occured any need to authenticate the Quran. Hadiths had to be authenticated because there were lot of weak hadiths in circulation.

It is true that Prophet himself supervised the Quran, It's collection and arrangement but the process was being carried out after Prophet SAW passed away. The process of compilation and authentication was carried out by the Righteous Sahabahs of Prophet SAW. They compiled and authenticated the Quran and benchmarked it against what the Prophet SAW made final.

Now, Prophet SAW also taught the Sahabahs the Islamic principles and teachings of the religion which are known as Sunnah. Now the Sahabahs also compiled and authenticated the ahadiths against what the Prophet SAW said and told and did.

The common benchmark in the compilation of Quran and Sunnah was the Prophet SAW. Therefore If you reject the authenticity of Sunnah, you have to reject the authenticity of Quran as well or vice versa.

[optimist]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

Then allow me to inform you. I am an ordinary person who simply uses his reasoning.

Salam,

Do you know where I differ with you in the article that you have written, 'The Role of Reason and Intellect between Modern Western Paradigm and Islam'. Your agruement is based on assumption that the hadiths are also revelations from Allah and and therefore infallible. Please provide me any proof from Quran that hadiths are revelations from Allah. I have asked you the same question a few times.

Wassalam

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by optimist

Salam,

Do you know where I differ with you in the article that you have written, 'The Role of Reason and Intellect between Modern Western Paradigm and Islam'. Your agruement is based on assumption that the hadiths are also revelations from Allah and and therefore infallible. Please provide me any proof from Quran that hadiths are revelations from Allah. I have asked you the same question a few times.

Wassalam

Your question cannot be solved with the correct answer. The corretc answer is that hadeeths are the recorded traditions of the prophet. The Allah said that the prophet does not speak of his own desire and Allah made it obligatory on mankind to follow Muhammad. There is a rule in the shariah which states that Athere is no obligation where there is inability". What that means is that Allah is not going to obligate something upon His slaves EXCEPT that they by default have the ability to perform it. So if he ordered us to follow him, then it by default entails that Allah would as well save his sunnah from corruption.
So the correct answer is that hadeeth are the recorded sayings, approavals, and actions of the Messenger of Allah, and everything the messenger did was revelation of Allah. EVEN when the messenger made a mistake, Allah turned that mistake into a guidance and a benefit for us.

However, I know that while this answer is more than sufficient, the fact that Parwez contaminated some of the views of muslims entails that this sufficiency is not enough, hence I told you that I would form an entirely new thread specifically dealing with the obligatory nature of the second half of revelation i.e. the sunnah.