> Dicussion on the authenticity and necessity of Hadiths!

[optimist]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

the opinion "hadeeth is not a source of law and guidance being not the intention of Allah" is virtually kufr in Allah and a denial of the revelation that Allah stated in the Qur'an that He has given to Muhammad. which will be explained inshallah in due time

Salam,

Thank you for your post. I will look forward to read to all the points. You can take time. According to me, it is important that, since hadith is also considered as a source of law and guidance, we need to get convincing proof from the Quran to uphold them in our daily life. Meanwhile I have to watch the video again as well the article The Role of Reason and Intellect between Modern Western Paradigm and Islam.

Wassalam

[Qatada]

asalaam alaikum


optimist, this is a good thread which might respond to alot of your misconceptions;

http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...tml#post525614


I wanted to post from it, but instead i think the whole link is relevant. Ansar al Adl is in support of hadith and some others are hadith rejectors.

Try to read it with your open mind and you'll see your doubts cleared insha Allah :)



Peace.

[Qatada]

asalaam alaikum


here's some examples;



Your argument is addressed with 2 points;


1) That the Qur'an is the Dhikr, a name for the Qur'an. And that it can only exclusively refer to the Qur'an and nothing else.


The Response;

This ludicrous notion that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an is annihilated by SEVERAL verses in the Qur'an which use Dhikr to refer to many other revelations beside the Qur'an. Only one counterexample is necessary to refute such an assertion:

21:48 And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion and a light and a DHIKR for the righteous.

There are many other verses which refute the claim that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an such as 77:5, 21:105, 18:70, 21:7, etc. etc. All of this DEMOLISHES your ridiculous assertion that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an. Thus, you have no argument whatsoever against the use of Dhikr to encompass all of Allah's revelation, whether wahy matluw or ghayr matluw.




Furthermore, you say;

“I taught you the Book [wal]AND THE [hikmah] Wisdom [wal] AND The-Law [Torah] AND The-Gospel [Injeel]” - (5: 110)

So according to the logic, Allah taught Jesus four distinct revelations named as "The Book", "The Wisdom", "The Torah", and "The Injeel". This would mean that The Book is distinct from Torah and Injeel. Thus according to this interpretation, during that time, there were four revelations, which can not be true!

Therefore, Al-Hikmah" is an attribute of Allah's revelations as it is supposed to teach us WISDOM behind the written words in 'Al-Kitaab

Wassalam

According to you, the bold part is this;


“I taught you the BOOK [wal]AND THE [hikmah] BOOK [wal] AND The-Law [Torah] AND The-Gospel [Injeel]” - (5: 110)



The Quran does not contradict itself.
This is grammatically incorrect since according to the Qur'aanic principle of mooghayaraa (differentiation), coupled words do not mean the same thing and indeed the Glorious Qur’aan is far above such mistakes.

Allaah (Exalted is He) says: Do they not then consider the Qur'aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely have found therein much contradiction. (Soorah An Nisaa: 82)

We will now look at the second misunderstood word ‘Bayyina’ used in 16:44 and see that the ‘bayyana’ or clarity that the Messenger was to bring was from the Qur'an also. We first observe that another Verse is revealed by Allah that is similar to 16:43-44 above:

“And We sent down the BOOK to you for the express purpose that you should make clear to them[litubayyina] those things in which they differ, and that it should be a Guide and a Mercy to those who believe (Ch.16: Ver.64)

Here we notice that Allah has explicitly mentioned that the purpose of the BOOK is to provide the Prophet with revelation so that he may [litubayyina] make clear the things that people differ in. This verse yet again establishes that the Prophetic clarification is to come from the book.

This is where some basic linguistics comes into play. The word mentioned in the ayat is لتبين meaning to provide البيانelucidation, clarification, explanation in order to make it clear. The notion that it refers to mere deliverance of the message is exploded in the following paragraph which I quote directly in arabic:

{ وأنزلنا إليك الذكر لتبين للناس ما نزل إليهم }.

ففي هذه الآية الكريمة نصر صريح أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم انزل عليه القرآن وكلف بوظيفة البيان لهذا القرآن، هذا البيان المذكور في هذه الآية الكريمة: هو السنة المطهرة.

{And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.}

And in this noble verse is clear evidence that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had the Qur'an revealed to him and was given the duty of explaining (bayân) this Qur'an; this explanation mentioned in this noble verse is the Pure Sunnah.

How would there be so many classical tafseers entitled Bayân Al-Qur'ân if it only meant conveying or disclosing it?? The word had always been known to carry the meaning of elucidation.



http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...hadith-11.html

[Qatada]

When you commented that Prophet Muhammad made mistakes [which - according to your understanding - imply that Prophet Muhammad had errors] - then the fact that them errors were corrected PROVES that Allah corrected His Messenger when he did err. And that's why them verses were revealed.


We've already explained that Prophet Muhammad did not speak of his desires;

The Holy Prophet's Words are a Revelation from Allah

وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى

{And he does not speak of [his own] desire. It is not but revelation revealed to [to him]...53:3-4}

The verses tell us that it is absolutely impossible for the Messenger [saws] to forge lies and impute them to Allah. Nothing he utters is of his own wish or desire. He only conveys to the people what he was commanded to convey in its entirety, without additions or deletions. An analysis of the various Traditions in Bukhârî indicates that there are many categories or types of wahy [inspiration or revelation]. Type one is that in which the wordings and the meaning are both directly from Allah. This is called Qur'ân. Type two is the one in which only the meaning comes from Allah, and the Messenger [saws] expresses the meaning in his own words. This is called Hadîth or Sunnah [Tradition]. The subject of Hadîth, which comes from Allah, sometimes lays does injunctions or rules of conduct in clear and express terms, and at other times it establishes a general principle from which the Messenger [saws] derives laws on the basis of ijtihâd or analogy, and promulgates them. In this there does exist the possibility of mistake of judgement. But it is the characteristic of the Messenger [saws] and other Prophets [as] that if they commit any error of judgement, Allah sends down a revelation to amend it, so that they do not unwittingly persist in their mistaken ijtihâd. Unlike other scholars of ijtihâd, who can persist in their erroneous conclusions. However, their error is not only forgiven, but they also recieve one reward for exerting their utmost effort in comprehending the rule of religion to the fullest extent, as authentic and well-known Traditions bear testimony to this fact.

The foregoing discussion also allays the following doubt: It seems according to the above verses, that the Messenger [saws] does not speak of his own desire, but whatever he conveys to the people is a revelation from Allah. It follows from this that he does not exercise independent reasoning in any matter whatsoever, whereas authentic Traditions show otherwise. There are incidents recorded that at the beginning, he promulgated one law, but later on, revelation descended and the law was changed. This is an indication that the earlier law was not the law of Allah, but it was based on his ijtihâd. The foregoing paragraph already responded to this objection: the second type of revelation establishes a general principle of law from which the Messenger [saws] derives laws on the basis of ijtihâd, and promulgates them. Because the general principle has descended from Allah, all the laws are said to be the revelation from Allah. Allah knows best! (Shafy, vol. 8, pp. 202-203)

What is the Proof that Prophet Muhammad did make independent judgements, which were revelation [without requiring Qur'an as a source]?

Here is proof of the Prophet's saws independent capacity of religious directives:

48:18 Indeed, Allah was pleased with the believers when they gave their Bai'a (pledge) to you (O Muhammad SAW) under the tree, He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down As-Sakinah (calmness and tranquillity) upon them, and He rewarded them with a near victory,

Here the pledge that the Muslims gave the Prophet saws at hudaybiyyah is being praised in the Qur'an, yet not directive exists in the Qur'an to take such a pledge on this occasion. When the Prophet saws recieved news that 'Uthman rd may have been killed by the Quraysh he decided to take this pledge from the muslims, and yet he made this decision and the surah about Hudaybiyyah (Fath) was revealed after.

There are other verses which refer to the Qur'an as the response to the intellectual disputes of the various religious groups of the time, but they do not make reference to the Prophet's decisions. ALL of the Prophet's decrees are to be accepted as Allah swt negates the faith of anyone who rejects the decrees of the Prophet saws. The Prophet's teachings are the judge for us in all matters in our life, we are to accept his sunnah fully and completely.

[Qatada]

asalaam alaikum


One more thing, because you copied from a site which reject the Sunnah and ahadith in their TOTALITY, then you're not really doing something beneficial for yourself. Its more harmful for you since you yourself said that you affirm in some aspects of Sunnah.

[optimist]

Originally Posted by Qatada

asalaam alaikum
here's some examples;

Your argument is addressed with 2 points;

1) That the Qur'an is the Dhikr, a name for the Qur'an. And that it can only exclusively refer to the Qur'an and nothing else.

The Response;

This ludicrous notion that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an is annihilated by SEVERAL verses in the Qur'an which use Dhikr to refer to many other revelations beside the Qur'an. Only one counterexample is necessary to refute such an assertion:

21:48 And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion and a light and a DHIKR for the righteous.

There are many other verses which refute the claim that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an such as 77:5, 21:105, 18:70, 21:7, etc. etc. All of this DEMOLISHES your ridiculous assertion that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an. Thus, you have no argument whatsoever against the use of Dhikr to encompass all of Allah's revelation, whether wahy matluw or ghayr matluw.

Wassalam,

Do not use such harsh words. Please be patient to understand the clear meaning. When Allah refers to sending down 'Zikr' it refers to the Book; and the book could be Quran, Torah, Injeel etc. But in the verses we discuss the Book refers to only the Quran. That is why I said Zikr refers to Quran. In the above verse you have quoted the Zikr refers to the book of Allah, which is Torah. I agree Quran at couple of verses Zikr has a different meaning. But when the term Zirk is used with respect to divine revelation it refers only THE BOOK OF ALLAH and nothing else. Look at the following verses;

"We have revealed to you a Book, which is a Zikr (Reminder) for you: will you not then use your Aqal" (21:10)

A book, which book? It is only Quran

"A Book revealed to you-- so let there be no straitness in your breast on account of it-- that you may warn thereby, and a reminder close to the believers. [zikra-lil-mu'minin]" (7: 2)

Here the Zikr refers to what? Hadiths? It is Book, which is Quran

Again;

And this (Quran) is a blessed Reminder [Zikrun mubarakun] which We have revealed; will you then deny it (21: 50)

Again what? it is Quran.

And in this context you read the following verse;

“Surely We have revealed the Reminder [Zikr] and We will most surely be its guardian.” -(15: 9)

Allah has vowed to preserve and protect Quran only and never vowed to preserve hadiths. Here Zikr can never be translated as Hadiths of the prophet

Inna Anzalna Zikr.....the word Anzala is "send down", Al Zikr, it is nothing but Quran itself.

What proof do you need to know Al Zikr refers to Quran.

Furthermore, you say;

According to you, the bold part is this;

“I taught you the BOOK [wal]AND THE [hikmah] BOOK [wal] AND The-Law [Torah] AND The-Gospel [Injeel]” - (5: 110)

The Quran does not contradict itself.
This is grammatically incorrect since according to the Qur'aanic principle of mooghayaraa (differentiation), coupled words do not mean the same thing and indeed the Glorious Qur’aan is far above such mistakes.

Allaah (Exalted is He) says: Do they not then consider the Qur'aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely have found therein much contradiction. (Soorah An Nisaa: 82)

Then please answer me what does it mean Allah taught "the book" and "the Torah"? According to your logic both should be seperate. And also tell me what does it mean in the following verse "that teaches you that which you did not know". You have established book in the following verse as Quran and let us assume 'wisdom' as hadith/sunna, what does it teaches you that which you did not know?

"Even as We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our Ayat and purifies you and teaches you the Book AND [wal] the wisdom AND [wal] teaches you that which you did not know." (2: 151)

[/COLOR][/COLOR]This is where some basic linguistics comes into play. The word mentioned in the ayat is لتبين meaning to provide البيانelucidation, clarification, explanation in order to make it clear. The notion that it refers to mere deliverance of the message is exploded in the following paragraph which I quote directly in arabic:

{ وأنزلنا إليك الذكر لتبين للناس ما نزل إليهم }.

ففي هذه الآية الكريمة نصر صريح أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم انزل عليه القرآن وكلف بوظيفة البيان لهذا القرآن، هذا البيان المذكور في هذه الآية الكريمة: هو السنة المطهرة.

{And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.}

And in this noble verse is clear evidence that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had the Qur'an revealed to him and was given the duty of explaining (bayân) this Qur'an; this explanation mentioned in this noble verse is the Pure Sunnah.

How would there be so many classical tafseers entitled Bayân Al-Qur'ân if it only meant conveying or disclosing it?? The word had always been known to carry the meaning of elucidation.

You are wrong. The explanation mentioned in the noble vese is not sunnah. The Quran says here Dikr as sent down to the prophet, which is Quran. I have proved Zikr mentioned in the Quran refers to only book of Allah, which is Quran in this verse. And terms like anzala "sending down" is specifically mentioned in the Quran only to divine book of revelations. Here Allah has sent down the Dikr, which is Quran. For what purpose, to explain. Read the verse again it is what is sent down which is explaining. See also this verse

“And We sent down the BOOK to you for the express purpose that you should make clear to them[litubayyina] those things in which they differ, and that it should be a Guide and a Mercy to those who believe (Ch.16: Ver.64)

Here it is clearly mentioned the Quran is sent down "to explain" litubayyina

The explanation to be found in the Quran itself. That is why Quran has said at many places.

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." - (Ch.16: Ver.89)

“We have put forth for humans, in this Qur'an, every kind of example so that they may remember” - (39:27).

“Thus, Indeed, have We given in this Qur'an many facets to every kind of lesson [designed] for the [benefit of] mankind. However, man is, above all else, always given to contention. (18:54)


Wassalm

[optimist]

Originally Posted by Qatada

asalaam alaikum


optimist, this is a good thread which might respond to alot of your misconceptions;

Debate: Why do some people completely reject hadith? - Page 11 - LI Islamic Forum


I wanted to post from it, but instead i think the whole link is relevant. Ansar al Adl is in support of hadith and some others are hadith rejectors.

Try to read it with your open mind and you'll see your doubts cleared insha Allah :)

Peace.

Wassalam,

Thank you. I have read four pages now. I will complete the reading within couple of days, insha allah

wassalam

[optimist]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

here is an analytical study on this very point
The Role of Reason and Intellect Between Modern Western Paradigm and Islam

Salam,

Well, I have a doubt. May be I would not have such a doubt if i had read this article few months before. Regarding Quran I can agree that it is divinely authenticated, but regarding sunna there is no divine authentication. Here we assume the infallibility of Aql of some people who authenticated those reports. According to your explanation, we are supposed to assume each and every hadith "authenticated" by human being as infallible and consider them the true "sunna" of the prophet. And you are interpretinig that obeying the messenger means obeying and following these reports "athenticated" by human being as being sunna of the prophet. If obeying the prophet means following the hadiths, first it has to be proved that there hadiths are divinely authenticated.

wassalam

[salman]

^
1 - The Qur'an was transmitted through ahadith and if we were to follow your logic then we cannot trust the Qur'an either. How do you know that the Qur'an is divinely authenticated because the Qur'an says so? How do you know what the Qur'an says in fact has reached you correctly!? Were it not the same men, who transmitted and authenticated the ahadith, transmitted and authenticated the Qur'an? If this is the case, why accept one but reject the other?

2 - You should at least know that the sahih ahadith are also wahy and Allah Ta'ala promised to protect His wahy. Therefore, there is also divine authentication for sahih ahadith.

3 - No one claims these muhadithoon were infallible; however, there is a whole science to check authenticity of ahadith and that includes the ahadith which carried the Qur'an.

[Assad]

:

I dont understand that why would any Muslim even suspect If we should follow the Hadiths or not. To doubt it goes against all spiritual logic.

A Prophet is a human appointed by God to spread His Message. Hence Prophet speaks through the command of God or a representation of Gods message to the mankind. If Prophet tells us anything , make any commandment or laws than we are obliged to follow the Prophet because Prophet wont make his own laws unlike what you may call man-made laws.

If Prophet commands us to do something than Its obligatory on all of us. If you reject this than you are rejecting the commandments of God's representative on earth.

Regarding the authenticity of Sunnah through ahadiths, the above post by bro Salman has explained it comprehensively.

I believe that the Muhadithoon were not infallible but the process through which they verified each reports for the Quran and the Sunnah was a Divinely planned and executed and hence we have the same Quran as revealed to Prophet Muhammad SAW.