> Dicussion on the authenticity and necessity of Hadiths!

[optimist]

:

Why don't we discuss the importance of hadiths in Islam. The discussion should cover, how important is hadiths in our live, what is the reason for following Hadiths? What are the supporting verses from the Quran to follow the hadith? etc. Let it be a open discussion so that everyone should be able to understand both sides of arguements.

“They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. They are the ones whom Allah has guided. They are the ones who possess intelligence” - (Quran 39: 18)

The Quran constantly exhorts Muslims to reason, think, reflect, and deliberate. It goes so far as to say that those people who do not use the God given mental abilities are ‘worse than animals’ (7:179). According to the Qur'an, those people who readily believe in anything without first questioning or thinking over it are not Muslims. Such an attitude brings human life down to the level of animals where the purpose of life is repetition and maintenance of the status quo. While describing the traits of the Mumineen Allah says, “These are the people who do not accept without scrutiny and deliberation”- (25:73).

For the 'argruements sake', I will take a stand that hadith as a source of law and guidance is not the intention of Allah, so that I can learn from others more about necessity of following hadiths. In every discussion, someone has to take an opposite stand, and ask questions and only then there will be a lively discussion. If the forum does not allow such kind of discussion this thread may be either locked or deleted.

wassalam

[Qatada]

wasalaam alaikum


plz check this insha Allah;


hadeeth myths
Ahadeeth myths :: load-islam

[optimist]

Myth #2 Al-Hikmaah is an attribute of the Glorious Qur’aan

The Quraniyyah (Quran-alone group) argue that Al-Hikmaah mentioned in the Glorious Qur’aan refers to the Glorious Qur’aan instead of the Sunnah. They claim that it means mere 'Wisdom' and leave it at that.

In the linguistic sense, The term hikmaah means 'wisdom', 'aphorism', 'maxim', or 'gnome'. it is derived from the root h-k-m (haakaama) which means 'to rule or issue a judgement' and thus in the Shariah terminology, it refers to the Sunnah depending on the context.

The definition is eloquently explained by Imaam Shaaf’ee (may Allaah have mercy on him) who comments on the ayaat regarding the Kitaab (Qur’aan) and the Hikmaah (Sunnah):

Allaah (Exalted is He) mentioned the Kitaab, and that is the Qur'aan; He also mentioned Hikmaah. I have heard those whose opinion I trust among the people of knowledge of the Qur'aan say that Hikmaah means the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). This supports what Allaah (Exalted is He) said - and Allaah knows best - because the Qur'aan is a reminder (dhikr) and hikmaah follows it, and Allaah mentioned that He lavished favour on His creatures by teaching them the Kitaab and Hikmaah. It is therefore impermissible - and Allaah knows best - to say that Hikmaah here is anything other than the Sunnah of Allaah's Messenger (Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). That is because it is coupled (maqruna) with the Kitaab, and that Allaah has made obedience to His Prophet a strict obligation, imposing upon people the absolute duty to follow his commands. Thus it is not permissible to say about anything that it is a strict obligation (fard) except about Allaah's Book and the Sunnah of His Messenger (Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) due to what we just said, namely, that Allaah has coupled belief in His Messenger with belief in Him. (al-Risala (p. 78))

Allaah (Exalted is He) mentions the Hikmaah in several ayaat:

Allaah has surely blessed the believers with His favor when He raised in their midst a Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His verses and makes them pure and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, while they were, earlier in open error. (Soorah Al-Baqaraa:164)

He (Allaah) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allaah, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom. (Soorah al-Joomooa:2)

Here Hikmaah is followed straight after the mentioning of Kitaab (Book). According to the Quraniyyah, it should read as:

He (Allaah) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allaah, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book (Qur'aan) and the Wisdom (Qur'aan) (Soorah al-Joomooa:2)

This is grammatically incorrect since according to the Qur'aanic principle of mooghayaraa (differentiation), coupled words do not mean the same thing and indeed the Glorious Qur’aan is far above such mistakes.

Allaah (Exalted is He) says:

Do they not then consider the Qur'aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely have found therein much contradiction. (Soorah An Nisaa: 82)

Salam,

The claim made above is that Hikma is nothing to do with Quran and it refers to Sunna/hadiths! As we all know, the revelations of Allah have many attributes. Allah has not just assigned "names" for His revelations - rather the "names" mentioned are actually attributes that signify different characteristics of His revelations. The word "Al-Qur'an" itself is not a name but an attribute. It means 'The Recital", or "The-Recitation", specifying the attribute of recitation of Allah's revelations. There are many attributes of Allah's revelations. For example, "Al-Zikr", meaning "The-Reminder" as Allah's revelations are supposed to REMIND us; "Al-Huda", meaning "The-Guidance" as the revelations are supposed to GUIDE us; "Al-Kitaab", meaning the "The-Book" or "Written Record" as Allah's revelations are in the form of a Book, a written record; "Al-Furqaan", meaning 'The Criterion" as Allah's revelations are supposed to be the CRITERION for us to judge between right and wrong. Similarly, "Al-Hikmah" is also an attribute of Allah's revelations as it is supposed to teach us WISDOM behind the written words in 'Al-Kitaab".

The following verses clearly explain to us that Wisdom is an attribute of the Qur'an:

“Alif Laam Ra; these are the Verses of the Book of Wisdom [Kitaab al-Hakeem]” -- (10:1)

“Alif Lam Mim; these are the Verses of the Book of Wisdom” (31:1-2)

“Ta Sin. By the Qur'an full of Wisdom” (36:1-2)

“We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, so that you may use your Aqal. And verily it is in the Mother of The Book, in Our Presence, High, Full of Wisdom” (43: 3-4)

These are of the Wisdom [al-Hikmah], which your Lord has revealed to you. Take not, with Allah, another object of Worship, lest you should be thrown into hell, blameworthy and rejected (17: 39).

These above verses make it evident that Wisdom is an attribute of the Qur'an. Thus when the Qur'an is revealed to the Prophet, its Hikmah is also revealed to him by default.

“Ha Meem. And the Book of Clarity [Kitaab al-Mubeen]. We sent it down during a blessed night: for We wish to warn. In that is made distinct EVERY affair of WISDOM” (44: 1-4)

Here Allah ties the descending of the Book with all wisdom. Again, we look at the Qur'an and see how "Hikmah" is defined:

“This is what We rehearse [natluhu] to you of the Ayat and the Reminder of Wisdom [al-Dhikr al-Hakeem]” - (3:58)

Here the “Reminder of Wisdom” is to be recited [Natluhu]. The only thing that the Muslims recite is the Qur'an. No one ever recites Hadith. Thus the Hikmah is the Qur'an.

We now look at another evidence that al-Hikmah is something that is to be recited. We see that Allah commanded the wives of the Messenger to recite al-Hikmah:

"And bear in mind that which is recited in your houses of the Ayat of Allah AND al-Hikmah. Lo! Allah is Subtle, Aware." (33:34)

Here we notice that the wives of the Prophet were instructed to RECITE the Verses of Allah AND the Wisdom. The only thing that is recited is the Qur'an. The Qur'an uses the words tilawa, yatlu, tatlu, etc. explicitly for recitation of the verses of the Qur'an. It is therefore abundantly clear that Hikmah is an attribute of the Qur'an, and is to be recited. Qur'an is not just a Kitaab or Book of Legal rulings. It also contains the Wisdom behind those rulings and laws. Thus The Book and the Wisdom means the laws and the wisdom behind those laws. This is the Miracle of Allah’s Revelations - they contain His laws as well as the Wisdom behind those laws.

One of the arguments mentioned above is that since ‘the Quran and the wisdom’ is used in the quran together both should be understood as differently. We will analyse some other Verses of the Qur'an in the light of this argument.

"Even as We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our Ayat and purifies you and teaches you the Book AND [wal] the wisdom AND [wal] teaches you that which you did not know." (2: 151)

Now, here the Messenger teaches us "The-Book" AND "The-Hikmah", AND teaches us "that which we did not know". Thus according to the logic the presence of the "wau atfa" would mean that he is teaching us THREE DISTINCT things. Now, based on the logic we have established that "Al-Kitaab" is the Qur'an, and "Al-Hikmah" is the "Hadith and Sunna". Now in addition to this we would like to know what is this new knowledge that the Messenger is teaching could be found, it cannot be in the Quran, or even in the Hadith.

We may look again at another Ayat:

“I taught you the Book [wal]AND THE [hikmah] Wisdom [wal] AND The-Law [Torah] AND The-Gospel [Injeel]” - (5: 110)

So according to the logic, Allah taught Jesus four distinct revelations named as "The Book", "The Wisdom", "The Torah", and "The Injeel". This would mean that The Book is distinct from Torah and Injeel. Thus according to this interpretation, during that time, there were four revelations, which can not be true!

Therefore, Al-Hikmah" is an attribute of Allah's revelations as it is supposed to teach us WISDOM behind the written words in 'Al-Kitaab

Wassalam

[optimist]

Myth #4 The ahadeeth is not protected.

Another popular belief among the Quraniyyah and the ignorant Muslims is the myth that the ahadeeth are not protected.

They cite the ayah in Soorah al-Hijr as proof. A clear examination of the ayah proves that Allaah (Exalted is He) has promised to protect His religion which includes the Qur’aan and the Sunnah. The ayah is:
Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).(Sooraah al-Hijr:9)
Al-Dhikr mentioned in the ayah has numerous meanings in the Glorious Qur’aan, it is sometimes for the Glorious Qur'aan as in
And this is a blessed Reminder (al-dhikr), which We have sent down: will you then (dare to) deny it? (Sooraah al-Anbiyaah:50)
And sometimes it is used for Sunnah, as in,
With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you the Dhikr, that you may tubayyina (explain clearly) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought. (Soorah An-Nahl:44)
Ibn Hazm (May Allaah have mercy on him) said in his book ‘al-Ihkaam that
al-dhikr is a name that comprises all that Allaah revealed to His Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) be it the Qur'aan or the Sunnah. The Sunnah is also a revelation that explains the Qur'aan

Salam,

There are two main claims made above. The first one is that, Zikr does not just means Qur'an alone, but also the Sunna/ hadiths are also involved and second is that EXTRA clarifications (litubayyina) of the Qur'anic revelations mentioned in verse 16:44 means extra revelations other than the Quran.

The word ‘al-Zikr’ literally means ‘The Reminder’. As it is mentioned in the previous post Allah uses different attributes for His revelations to emphasize its different aspects. Indeed, the word Quran itself is not a name but an attribute of Allah’s Revelations.

In a similar fashion, the word Al-Zikr is used because the Qur'an is meant for people to take reminder from it. We will see that the Qur'an itself gives plenty of evidence that al-Zikr is not any extra revelations, but just another attribute of the Quran itself:

A Book revealed to you-- so let there be no straitness in your breast on account of it-- that you may warn thereby, and a reminder close to the believers. [zikra-lil-mu'minin] (7: 2)

“…although thou dost not ask of them any reward for it: it is but [God’s] reminder unto all mankind.” [zikrul-lil-'alameen] (12:104)

In the following verse, Allah promises that He will Guard the Zikr that He has revealed.

“Surely We have revealed the Reminder [Zikr] and We will most surely be its guardian.” -(15: 9)

Again, in the following Verses, the Qur'an identifies itself as the blessed Zikr:

And this is a blessed Reminder [Zikrun mubarakun] which We have revealed; will you then deny it (21: 50)

We have revealed to you a Book, which is a Zikr (Reminder) for you: will you not then use your Aqal (21:10)

These Ayat should be enough for anyone to see that Al-Zikr (The Reminder) is just another attribute of the Qur'an (The Recital)

We will now look at the second misunderstood word ‘Bayyina’ used in 16:44 and see that the ‘bayyana’ or clarity that the Messenger was to bring was from the Qur'an also. We first observe that another Verse is revealed by Allah that is similar to 16:43-44 above:

“And We sent down the BOOK to you for the express purpose that you should make clear to them[litubayyina] those things in which they differ, and that it should be a Guide and a Mercy to those who believe (Ch.16: Ver.64)

Here we notice that Allah has explicitly mentioned that the purpose of the BOOK is to provide the Prophet with revelation so that he may [litubayyina] make clear the things that people differ in. This verse yet again establishes that the Prophetic clarification is to come from the book.

And in the following Verse Allah further explains that the Clarity and The Guidance is in the Qur'an:

Ramadan is the Month in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a Guide [Huda] to humankind and as a Clarity [Bayyinatin] for The Guidance [al-Huda] and The Criterion [al-Furqaan]. - (Ch.2: Ver.185)

In the light of the above, if we read the following verse we will know that the Dhikr mentioned in the below verse is refers to only Quran itself and it does not refer to any other thing.

With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you the Dhikr, that you may tubayyina (explain clearly) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought. (Soorah An-Nahl:44)

Wassalam

[optimist]

The revelation (wahy) is one, meaning that they come from same source, but are distinguished between the unrecited wahy (ghayr matluww) which is the Sunnah and the recited wahy (wahy matluww) which is the Glorious Qur’aan.

Allaah (Exalted is He) says:

He does not speak from his desires, Verily it is inspiration (unrecited revelation) which has been revealed. (Soorah an-Najm:3-4)

Salam

The writer has given complete twist to the above verse. He has given translation for Inspiration as "unrecited revelation", in other words, meaning that it is not Quran which is the subject matter of discussion in the above verse, but refers ordinary speech of the prophet (unrecited revelation!) outside Quran.

From a linguistic point of view, we note that Allah says 'In Huwa ila wahe yuha' 53:4, this literally translates to ‘It is nothing but inspiration being inspired’. The word 'Huwa' is very indicative in this verse, it literally means 'it', but that is not all. The word 'it' in English does not give a gender, 'it' could refer to a masculine or a feminine equally. However, in Arabic the word 'Huwa' refers to the masculine (as opposed to the word Hiya which refers to the feminine). The word 'Huwa' here refers to the Qur'an which is masculine. What all this means is that in this verse, Allah is specifically speaking about the inspiration of the Qur'an to the Prophet . Allah is NOT speaking about ordinary speech of the the prophet!

The Qur'an explains it very clearly that the speech of the Prophet that is by Wahi is nothing else but the Qur'an. Allah has made clear distinction between the Prophet’s ordinary human speech and the Wahi that he is reciting. We see that Allah admonishes the Prophet in the Quran at several places. Here are a few examples:

“Allah pardons you! Why did you give them leave until those who spoke the truth had become manifest to you and you had known the liars?” - (9: 43)

In the above Ayah, the messenger of God is admonished as to why he had given permission to the Hypocrites until the truthful people were made distinct from the liars. Had everything spoken by him been a revelation from God, then the above Qur'anic revelation would not have opposed the speech of the messenger in which he had given the permission to the Hypocrites for non-participation in Jihad. This makes it clear that not everything that the Messenger did or said was by Wahi.

Then we further see in the Qur'an that Allah says to the Prophet:

O Nabi! Why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful? - (66: 1)

Here Allah admonishes the Prophet for forbidding something for himself that Allah did not forbid. This verse again establishes that the Prophet often acted on his own initiative as a human being without the revelation of Allah. If the things he did or said was by Wahi, he would not be admonished by Allah in the Qur'an for saying something that Allah did not want him to say.

Now we look at the Qur'anic evidence that the revelation that was being sent down to the Messenger was nothing else but the Qur'an. Allah explains what is being revealed to the Prophet:

Ha Mim: A REVELATION from the Beneficent, the Merciful Allah: A BOOK, whereof the Ayat are explained in detail; - a QUR'AN in Arabic, for people who understand - (41: 1-3).

The Messenger himself is made to confirm that the Wahi he is receiving is the Qur'an:

‘And this Qur'an has been revealed to me [uhiya ilayya ha_zal Qur'an] that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches?’ (6:19)

Allah Challenges people to produce something similar to the Revelation being sent down to the Messenger. Let us read these challenges:

‘And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then bring a Surah similar to it, and call your witnesses beside Allah if ye are truthful?’ (2:23)

Therefore, when it says in the below verse "Verfily it is inspiration', Allah is specifically talking about the Quran itself. The following translation given by the writer, translating inspiration as "unrecited revelation" is an incorrect translation.

He does not speak from his desires, Verily it is inspiration (unrecited revelation) which has been revealed. (Soorah an-Najm:3-4)

wassalam

[optimist]

Without the unrecited wahy (sunnah), some of the provisions of the Shariah would have been left untouched or subjected to everyone’s opinion irrespective of their knowledge. To name an example: the command to establish the second pillar which is the salaah.

Allaah (Exalted is He) has ordered more than 73 times to observe it and yet the explanation is nowhere mentioned in the Glorious Qur’aan. Hence, through the sunnah of the Prophet, we learn the exact way of observing the salaah.

Salam,

A system for a ritual once established the prophet and practiced regularly five times a day by the Muslim communities wherever they are, and a system so simple as it is cannot possibly fall apart for any reason. The undisputed history is the proof that the system continues to date without a break of even a single prayer of the day from the time it was established by the prophet! In fact, a practice that survived for 250 years without the influence of the Hadith should continue. It is more in line to argue that the writing down of these things in the form of Hadith had contributed to division among the Imams later in History and hence different systems developed by their followers. Contrary to general idea mentioned above, the Qur'an gives clear guidelines for the physical performance of the Qur'an. The following Ayah tells us:

"Surely the FIRST House appointed for Mankind is that at MAKKAH, it is full of BLESSING and GUIDANCE for all the WORLDS [Hudan lil alameen]." [3: 96]

When Allah identifies His house as 'Hudan lil alameen', i.e. guidance for all worlds, then what ever is the system and practice of that house established by the Holy Prophet is guidance for the entire world. So, the manner in which the salat established in the House of Allah by the Holy Prophet as was done in Madinah and it be adopted all over the world in all the mosques and homes at all times.

"And when We made THE HOUSE a place of Blessing and security for Mankind, AND TAKE ALL OF YOU FROM THE STANDING POSITION OF IBRAHEEM (MUQ'AM IBRAHEEM) THE SALAH PERFORMED (MUSAL'AA), and We covenanted with Ibraheem and Ismail, to purify My House for those who compass around and those who are in retreat and those who bow down and prostrate."[ 2: 125]

The word “Musalla” is from the root word “Qur'an” just like the word “Musaffa” is from the root word “Saffa”. Saffa means “purification”, and Musaffa means “purification performed”. In the same manner, Qur'an means “prayer”, and Musalla means, “prayer performed”. The above Verse make it clear that the prayer is to be performed as it is performed in the Sacred Mosque, which is a place for Guidance.

So according to Qur'an 2:125 we are ordered to take the Musalla from Maqam e Ibraheem in Ka’aba. The house of Allah is the Centre point of the messengers of Allah and following its system brings unity among the believers as this verse tells us:

"And from where ever you go forth, revert your self to the intersection of Al Masjid al Haraam (shatar al Masjid al Haraam), and where ever all of you are, revert your selves to its intersection. THAT THERE MAY BE NO GROUND OF DISPUTE AMONG YOU, EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSORS FROM THEM so fear them not but fear Me, that I may complete My favours on you and that you may be guided."-[Ch.2: Ver.150]

It is also pertinent to note that the obligatory prayers and all other religious observances of Islam were originally taught to Abraham, and were practiced by all the Prophets and their true followers. When Allah orders the prophet Muhammad to follow Ibraheem's Millah (3:95, 4:125 & 2:135), it is confirmed that his Millah exists, i.e. all the practices etc before the Prophet Muhammad.

Now look at the present day Muslims. As we all know, the system of prayer in Shia is different from that in Sunni. We look at Sunnis, their 'Ahl e Hadith' sect's way of praying is different from the 'Hanafi' sect with clear knowledge of the difference. Now, therefore, the question is, which system of praying ought to be considered genuine version of the Messenger, while there are different Hadiths standing to witness every sect's way of praying. It does not make sense at all that practices of all sects are correct. How are we to believe that during the time of the prophet some disciples offered prayers like the Sunnis while other disciples offered them like the Shiites do? Let us not sidestep this issue but should merit our serious consideration. The Hadith has clearly failed to resolve this matter, as this issue is a creation of Hadith itself.

According to the Qur'an, the most important purpose of Salat is to glorify and praise Allah, The Sustainer of the Worlds, to guard against evil temptations and to make us ever conscious of Allah. Look at the following verses:

“Verily, I am Allah: There is no god but I: So serve you Me (only), and establish regular prayer for celebrating My praise” - (20: 14)

“Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to you, and establish regular Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that you do.” - (29:45)

So also, according to the Qur'an the most important aspect of the Salat is that it is directed to NONE but Allah. This aspect of Salat is emphasized in the Qur'an.

“Say: ‘Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds’” - (6:162)

Besides the prayer for Allah ONLY, another important aspect of is Salat mentioned, i.e. one MUST perform Salat with earnestness and willingness.

“The Hypocrites - they think they are over-reaching Allah, but He will over-reach them: When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance” (4: 142)

Here Allah identifies a reason why these people’s Salat is not accepted. The reasons given are NOT that they did not do the right number of Raka’ats, or did not perform the physical actions in a particular sequence. However, the reasons given are (1) that they do NOT hold Allah in Remembrance and (2) that they do not do it with earnestness and humility.

The point we must remember is that rituals are important only when we place them in the context of many important duties that Allah has asked us to perform .

There is a story about the ‘people of the cave’ whom Allah made to sleep for centuries and finally awoke them into consciousness. According to the Qur'an, the importance of the story is to make the people know that the promise of Allah is true and that there can be no doubt about the Hour of Judgment (18:21). The Qur’an discusses how the people who came after them started quarrelling on petty issues like constructing a monument for them, the total number of youths, the number of years they slept, etc. The Qur'an finally gives a clear warning to the Prophet and the Muslims:

“Enter not therefore into controversies concerning them except on a matter that is clear nor consult any of them about (the affair of) the Sleepers”. (18:22)

Those of us who are now engaged in disputes regarding where to place our hands while standing for prayer, up or below the naval, how to sit in Athahiyat, how many raka'at for Taraaweeh, whether to say Qunooth in the morning prayer or not, and such other petty issues must sit and contemplate on the above Qur’anic verses. I do not think Hadiths can help us in this regard, because the discussion on these issues itself is the creation of the Hadith itself.

To summarize: we see that the Qur'an does not emphasize on the different actions of Salat, but that Salat be performed with humility to Allah alone and be accompanied by kind actions towards others. The purpose of the prayer is to worship God, to praise and to supplicate Him for man's own self-development. Salat is not based on physical performance or a ‘check-list’ of details, but it is a connection to the Almighty himself and therefore one’s primary focus must always be ‘Mind’ and ‘Message’, not the ‘Body’ or its ‘Motions’.

“It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which you have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing” -(2:177)

Although the Salat prayer has its definite form, in the end this form is not important, as this verse tells us:

“Unto every community have We appointed [different] ways of worship, which they ought to observe. Hence [O believer,] do not let those [who follow ways other than thine] draw thee into disputes on this score, but summon [them all] unto thy Sustainer: for, behold, thou art indeed on the right way.” - (22:67)

As mentioned by Quran in verse 3: 96, Mekkah is our guidance and we have to follow whatever system, and the practice of Salah taking place there.

Wassalam

[Qatada]

Lets get one thing straight, do you accept the Sunnah at all? Or the Quran only?

[optimist]

Originally Posted by Qatada

Lets get one thing straight, do you accept the Sunnah at all? Or the Quran only?

I am only in the process of learning ...at the moment I believe that all the hadiths that contradict the Quran should be rejected.

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by optimist

:

Why don't we discuss the importance of hadiths in Islam. The discussion should cover, how important is hadiths in our live, what is the reason for following Hadiths? What are the supporting verses from the Quran to follow the hadith? etc. Let it be a open discussion so that everyone should be able to understand both sides of arguements.

Inshallah I will dedicate a seperate post just for this

“They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. They are the ones whom Allah has guided. They are the ones who possess intelligence” - (Quran 39: 18)

Yes, these people are muhadithoon. The people who examine are them, not us.

The Quran constantly exhorts Muslims to reason, think, reflect, and deliberate.

here is an analytical study on this very point
The Role of Reason and Intellect Between Modern Western Paradigm and Islam

in esence, most of those who profess this idea of Allah exhorting us to think usually are those who do not have a shred of the contextual nature and discipline in how this is performed and in what topics it should be performed, and under what topics it is rebuked. reading the above article should gear you towards the right understanding. In essence, everyone likes to claim qur'an tells us to ponder (of course under the western veil of questioning) yet they fail to understand what is it that Allah is telling us to ponder. Those who say "everything" have not understood the Qur'an and have failed to understand Islam and are of those whom Allah did not give fiqh (understanding) of the deen to. For example, lets take the following

It goes so far as to say that those people who do not use the God given mental abilities are ‘worse than animals’ (7:179).

Yet, I bet you have no idea under what context the verse was actually addressing AND MORE IMPORTANTLY to who

According to the Qur'an, those people who readily believe in anything without first questioning or thinking over it are not Muslims.

Of course. But when something is established as a saying of Allah (Qur'an) or a saying of the messenger (hadeeth), then according to the Qur'an, whoever question them are likewise not Muslims.
There are a few reasons for this, the ultimate of which is that the very definition of a Muslim is the complete and total submission of one's personal desires to the One who submission is obligated to. This submission entails the message of the messenger. So when someone who claims to be Muslim looks at the established sources of Islam which have already been analyzed and reviewed to be acceptable and authentic, and begins questioning what was already questioned, determined, and already proven to be from Islam, then they are not Muslims because they failed to perform the basic Muslim thing to do, which is to submit.

Islam is to be submitted to, it does not submit to

Such an attitude brings human life down to the level of animals where the purpose of life is repetition and maintenance of the status quo.

If I could give you a 100 dollars, I would give you a 100 dollars to go and study and research "WHICH" people Allah was referring to when he likened such people.

While describing the traits of the Mumineen Allah says, “These are the people who do not accept without scrutiny and deliberation”- (25:73).

that is a gross and vile translation of the ayaah. As I went through these quotations of the Qur'an you brought, I noticed the awkward wording of it that does not accord to the established understanding or the basic reading of the Qur'an in any of the translations. here is a more accurate rendering of the verse.


[025:073] And those who, when they are reminded of the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord, fall not deaf and blind thereat.

This actual verse holds a completely different reality than this satanically distorted translation you provided in that quote. Now, when continue to breakdown this unIslamic thread into bits and pieces, I will also have to render the correct translation of these versus as now the credibility of these versus are in jeapordy, and NOW I see why you have been led astray if one noticed these words that are suppose to be translations of these versus yet are not.

For the 'argruements sake', I will take a stand that hadith as a source of law and guidance is not the intention of Allah, so that I can learn from others more about necessity of following hadiths

Okay, then everything that will be said will be within the context of "for argument's sake" so that way offense does not need to be felt.

the opinion "hadeeth is not a source of law and guidance being not the intention of Allah" is virtually kufr in Allah and a denial of the revelation that Allah stated in the Qur'an that He has given to Muhammad. which will be explained inshallah in due time

In every discussion, someone has to take an opposite stand, and ask questions and only then there will be a lively discussion. If the forum does not allow such kind of discussion this thread may be either locked or deleted.

wassalam

someone does not "have" to take an opposite stand. This idea is built on the western sentiment that diversity and difference is "healthy" when in fact it is not healthy. If we are discussion the fundamentals of the religion, Allah commanded Muslims to hold on to the rope of Allah i.e. be on the same page. When Muslims actually decide to hold a different opinion beyond the parameters of the opinion of Allah and His messenger (Qur'an found in mushafs and Sunnah found in hadeeth), then that is not healthy rather it is as detriment to the afterlife of Muslims.

if you review that lecture I gave you before "The Role of Reason and Intellect in Islam" he discusses regarding critiquing the fundamentals of the religion, if one is to go down that path, the whole religion is destroyed. Nothing is left. And this is exactly what the western world wants of Muslims to do because they know these "analytical" steps in holding "difference of opinion" will destroy religion as we know it as they did with their religion.

We can have this discussion, but please understand as a Muslim that you say you are, should realize that one of the destructions of the jews was their questioning of matters that needed no question about. In that same lecture I gave you, I hope you hear it again, infact listen to it five times before further commenting on this discussion, he says "there is no Why? after you have accepted Islam"

In other words there is no critique of the viewpoints of Allah (Qur'an) o the Messenger (Hadeeth) once the soul has accepted them as the source of guidance. To critique these sources goes contrary to the attribute of one who believes in them as a source of guidance which is why the ummah of Islam has deemed the one who renders irrelevant any one of these two sources as a kaafir in Allah who has apostated.

In fact, I will repost the video here because 90 percent of your entire framework is addressed, contextualized, and rendered inaccurate within the Islamic context here

Intelligent Faith: The Role of Reason and Intellect in Islam - Yasir Qadhi

Intelligent Faith: The Role of Reason and Intellect in Islam - Yasir Qadhi

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by optimist

I am only in the process of learning ...at the moment I believe that all the hadiths that contradict the Quran should be rejected.

That belief is useless to cite because all of us are in absolute agreement with this principle

where we actually differ is that the whole of the Muslim ummah has contemplatively understood the conglomerated efforts of hadeeth specialist who have deciphered for us what is actually against the qur'an and what is not, and that is why we have works liked the two sahihs because we all know through analytical approach that all of the six books of hadeeth do not contain a single hadeeth that opposes the Qur'an. Some of them have weak hadeeth, but that is different than "contradicting the Qur'an".

So we all agree to that principle, but where we disagree is in your handicapped understanding of the Qur'an and hadeeth which inevitably lead you to assume that a text contradict another text and the perfect example was the hadeeth of Muslim being against the Qur'an. Yet, when analyzed in the light of pure Islamic outlook, it turned out that your entire framework in which you understood the hadeeth is wrong, as well as the Quranic ayah. Likewise I can assure that every single other hadeeth of anyone who brings up that according to such people oppose the Qur'an, then 10 times out of 10 it is because they understood the matter as deficiently as you have regarding that hadeeth of Muslim being contradictory to the Qur'an regarding Eve.