> Specification on apostasy

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum

Originally Posted by salman

^Wa'alaykum As-Salam akhee, I respect your views and I don't want to debate you either. But please let me say this:

So you don't want to debate, you just want to tell me your opinion?
Ok I won't debate you either and instead tell you my opinion regarding your opinion.

1) I didn't say that we don't use our intellect and nor I was being hypocrite. It is preposterous to claim that for 14 centuries Muslims got it all wrong even though the Islamic texts were clear about this.

The article I posted actually lists a whole bunch of scolars who didn't think that apostacy is punishable with death. By the way, has every scholar even mentioned their opinion? Have you looked up the opinion of all early scholars? And what criterion do you use in order to consider someone a scolar, do they have to agree with your pov first?

2) our intellect is limited and Allah Ta'ala told us in the Qur'an that we ask the people of knowledge

And I did post my suorces didn't I?

3) you're asking me not to appeal to understanding of the earliest scholars but you're doing the same thing when you appealed to understanding of these handful modernists.

No, I'm asking you not to acept an opinon based on the name of who said it, but rather based on the strenght of their arguments.

[salamfromrom]

salam


So does anyone know of direct proof from the qur'an/sunnah which states that those born to muslim parents are never allowed to reject the message of islam.

Doesn't the Qur'an uphold every human being's right to choose or reject islam regardless if they were born or not to muslim parents? Simple question....

salam

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

salam
So does anyone know of direct proof from the qur'an/sunnah which states that those born to muslim parents are never allowed to reject the message of islam.

Doesn't the Qur'an uphold every human being's right to choose or reject islam regardless if they were born or not to muslim parents? Simple question....

salam

Well, I think the absence of an answer is your answer. If you're not afraid to think critically, I 'm sure the implications of it on the whole "apostacy-ruling" will be crystal clear inshaAllah.

[al-boriqee]

inshallah, i'll see what i can do to break down the matter if i can gather some information.
wasallam

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

As I mentioned in my previous post, the apostasy itself is a crime/treason against the Islamic state. It doesn't matter whether an apostate shows hostility toward Muslims or Islamic state because he already did so when he left Islam by breaking the covenant as denial of the testimony after its affirmation is a breach of the covenant.

Salam,

There are also many scholars in Islam who believe that only apostasy coupled with some criminal intention on their part to undermine the Islamic state is punishable with Death. I will quote below some of them out of many. Before doing so, let us learn something about this issue from Quran.

Firstly, we will not find even one verse from the Quran which stipulates death penalty for apostacy, whereas there are number of verses which will prove there is no death penalty for apostacy. The Quran says;

"And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein." (2:217)

Here the Quran specifically talks about those who leave Islam, and promises them punishment on the day of judgment. Allah doesn't order the death of those people.

"Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way."(4:137)

Notice that the Quran says those who reject faith and then BELIEVE and again DISBELIEVE. If a Muslim rejects faith and is then killed for doing so how will he live to again BELIEVE and then DISBELIEVE. The atmosphere of this verse is that of free will and freedom of choice to everyone. If Allah wanted he would have said something about the punishment, if there was any, of those who reject Islam after accepting it. But Allah takes this to be clearly a private matter between them and Allah.

"O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things." (5:54)

"But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray." (3:90)

What is interesting in all these verses is that the Quran specifically discusses Muslims rejecting the faith, but Allah is not setting any worldly punishment for them.

There is also one thing. If we insist on someone not leaving Islam as per their own individual choice it will in effect welcoming hypocrites into our religion which sometimes more dangerous than an apparent disbeliever. Hypocrites love their life, because they dont believe in the hereafter or Allah, so obviouslyt if we told them to repent and come back otherwise face death penatly, they will be coming back like the hypocrites they are.

The Quran gives complete freedom to human beings to choose a path of their own.

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): (18:29)

Hadrat Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz [d. 97 AH/720 AD]
[popularly known as Umar II and regarded as part of the Khulafa-i-Rashidoon]
Some people accepted Islam during the period of Umar bin Abdul Aziz, who is called the fifth rightful caliph of Islam. All these people renounced Islam sometimes later. Maimoon bin Mahran the governor of the area wrote to the caliph about these people. In reply Umar bin Abdul Aziz ordered him to release those people and asked him to re-impose jizya on them. [Musannaf Abdur Razzaq, pp. 171-10, cited in M. E. Subhani,Apostasy in Islam (New Delhi, India: Global Media Publications, 2005), pp. 23-24. Abdur Razzaq ibn Humama (d. 211 AH). This is the earliest musannaf (a hadith collection arranged in topical chapters) work in existence.]

Islamic Research Department, Al-Azhar University
"The Islamic Research Department of Al-Azhar University has called the penalty for apostasy as null and void and has said that the ways of repentance are open for the whole life. ... So an apostate can repent over his mistake anytime during his life and there would be no fixed period for it." [Al-Alamul Islami, the weekly organ of Rabita Alam al-Islami, 23rd August 2002, quoted in Dr. M. E. Subhani, Global Media Publications, 2005, p. 25]

Sufyan al-Thawri [d. 161 AH]
[known as 'the prince of the believers concerning Hadith' (amir al-mu'minin fi'l-Hadith) and is the author of two important compilations of Hadith, namely al-Jami' al-Kabir, and al-Jami' al- Saghir]

According to al-Thawri, apostate should be re-invited to Islam, but should never be condemned to death. [He] maintained the view that the invitation should continue for as long as there is hope that the apostate might change his mind and repent. [cited in Kamali, as above]

Kutty Ahmad Kutty [Scholar, Islamic Institute of Toronto]
“Even though the penalty for treason was the death penalty (as was the case in the Law of Moses as well), there was no targeting of people who simply chose to leave Islam without any implication of treason. To simply kill anyone who chooses to follow a religion other than Islam is against the fundamental teachings of the Qur’an. Freedom of conscience is a fundamental principle of the Qur’an that is clearly stated in many Qur'anic verses.”

Wassalam

[al-boriqee]

Sufyan al-Thawri [d. 161 AH]
[known as 'the prince of the believers concerning Hadith' (amir al-mu'minin fi'l-Hadith) and is the author of two important compilations of Hadith, namely al-Jami' al-Kabir, and al-Jami' al- Saghir]

According to al-Thawri, apostate should be re-invited to Islam, but should never be condemned to death. [He] maintained the view that the invitation should continue for as long as there is hope that the apostate might change his mind and repent. [cited in Kamali, as above]

Kamaali erred

ath-Thawri did not opine the apostate should live, ath-Thawri opined the apostate is to be put to death like every other person who claimed they were muslim in that era. Where he differed with the rest was in the time limit of repentance of the murtadd. And that opinion,amongs the people of knowledge was a "shaadh" opinion i.e. an awkward opinion that seems NOT to be in confromity with the revealed law of the sunnah

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

The article I posted actually lists a whole bunch of scolars who didn't think that apostacy is punishable with death. By the way, has every scholar even mentioned their opinion? Have you looked up the opinion of all early scholars? And what criterion do you use in order to consider someone a scolar, do they have to agree with your pov first?

well, these "whole bunch" of scholars that I have seen, 90 percent of them are of the modern era, and to that extent, due to the westernification which by default entailed the nullification of Islamic thought and its replacement with western ideals nad values, is pretty much rendered useless within the context of orthodoxy

then I came across this

A number of Islamic scholars from past centuries, Ibrahim al-Naka'I, Sufyan al-Thawri, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi, Abul Walid al-Baji and Ibn Taymiyyah, have all held that apostasy is a serious sin, but not one that requires the death penalty. In modern times, Mahmud Shaltut, Sheikh of al-Azhar, and Dr Mohammed Sayed Tantawi have concurred.

ibraheem lied. an-Nakhaa'i held the apostate is killed, only differed with regard to time limit
Ibraheem lied. Thawri held the apostate is killed, only differed with regard to time limit
Ibraheem lied. Sarkaakhsi held the apostate is to be killed like every person of knowldge on earth also opined to, only differed with regard to time and as well conceded to a different ruling with women
Ibraheem ultimately lied. Ibn Taymiyyah opined that the murtadd is to be killed no mater what, and given three days, whether he did a crime or not because in the view of ibn Taymiyyh and most of the traditionalist orthodox Muslims, the crime of irtadd is a crime done against the state by default which lead to the fact that the one who leaves this religion is to be killed point blanck end of discussion. that was the view of Ibn Taymiyyah and to that extention the ijmaa of the muslims for about 12 centuries, and an opinion that difers after this ijmaa is an opinnion that is null and void which is why the modern era of scholars who happened to oppose Allah and His messenger with their western view does not really count as an opinion for anyone who calls themselves Muslims and it is definately not an opinion of Islam.

[salman]

just to add few things, in addition to what akhee above has mentioned:

1 - Imam Thawri (may Allah have mercy on them) differed with rest on whether women apostate can be killed. This is also the opinion of hanafi madhab - whether a correct one or not is a different discussion.

2 - The three days mentioned by Shaykh ul-Islam (ibn Taymiyyah - rahimahullah) seems to be the position of hanabli madhab as ibn Qadamah (another hanabli giant - rahimahullah) mentions in his master piece al-mughni.

3 - The scholarship of these contemporary scholars can be seen when we find out that they lied against the past scholars just to strengthen their odd opinion.

[al-boriqee]

check this out

http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/d...-2160#post9864

[Muslim Woman]

I am confused after reading this :

Muaath asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muaath to sit down but Muaath said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed.

This


is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed"

[SaheehAl bukhari (2537/6) and Saheeh Muslim


(1456/3)]

So , not only born Muslims but revert Muslims will also be killed if they leave Islam ? Then the Quranic verse 4:137 is applicable for whom ?

[Behold, as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe, and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth - God will not forgive them, nor will guide them in any way.]

(An-Nisaa' 4:137)


This verse refers to punishment in hereafter , does not prescribe any punishment in this world.