> Specification on apostasy

[salamfromrom]

Salam brothers.

I have trouble understanding this following issue. I have already posted this on 2 separate islamic forums and on one of the forums, everyone said that apostasy is NOT punishable , while on another forum the mods didnt even bother to approove my post. I have been informed by a member of this board whom I know from another site (whose opinion I value very much) that this forum is the closest possible thing to traditional islamic views. (and im happy to be here)


I have read all ther opinions about apostasy and I do agree that if someone has researched and come to the conclusion of la Illaha Illa Allah, and later he denies and converts to another religion he should be killed. I am aware that this is the position of the madhabs and it seems reasonable. I mean if a sane adult embraces Islam knowing full well what the punishment for apostasy is and that There is only One God and Muhammad(pbuh) is his messenger, it would be stupid to disbelieve in it.

However I would like to ask about something which I do not understand. It is my understanding that the majority share the following view:

Quote:
<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi declares:

Whatever objections the critics pose regarding the punishment of the apostate, they make them bearing in mind only a single "religion" (madhhab). In contrast, when we present our arguments to demonstrate the validity of this punishment, we have in view no mere "religion" but a state which is constructed on a religion (din) and the authority of its principles rather than on the authority of a family, clan or people.

And since it is a state, Maududi declares it "has the right to protect its own existence by declaring those acts wrong which undermine its order", and proceeds to equate apostasy to treason. He then discusses the difference between a kafir, a dhimmi, and the appropriateness of death for them if they apostatize after conversion, and for those born of Muslim parents he states:

In any case the heart of the matter is that children born of Muslim lineage will be considered Muslims and according to Islamic law the door of apostasy will never be opened to them. If anyone of them renounces Islam, he will be as deserving of execution as the person who has renounced kufr to become a Muslim and again has chosen the way of kufr. All the jurists of Islam agree with this decision. On this topic absolutely no difference exists among the experts of shari'ah.

Maududi considers the threat of execution as not forcing someone to stay within the fold of Islam, but as a way of keeping those who are not truly committed out of the community of Islam. Maududi rejects the third criticism because unlike other religions which are free to exchange believers, Islam is "on whose ideas and actions society and state are constructed" cannot allow "to keep open its door that would spell its own ruin, the scattering of its own structure's parts, the stripping away of the bonds of its own existence", and he compares this to the treason penalty on the books of the U.S. and Britain. Maududi also rejects the charge of contradiction. In his words:

"There is no compulsion in religion" (la ikraha fi'd din: Qur'an [Qur'an 2:256]) means that we do not compel anyone to come into our religion. And this is truly our practice. But we initially warn whoever would come and go back that this door is not open to come and go. Therefore anyone who comes should decide before coming that there is no going back. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
(source: Wikipedia, Apostasy in Islam)

So this is the only thing which I find that goes against any logic or reasoning..

How can a child be killed once he grows up if once attaining the age of being able to think for himself he chooses to not be muslim. This seems to go against the very essence of freedom to choose your own religion. Am I wrong? Isn't Allah(swt) the only one who can guide? What if He(swt) decides not to guide a specific child born to muslim parents..... how can we kill him.

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

I have read all ther opinions about apostasy and I do agree that if someone has researched and come to the conclusion of la Illaha Illa Allah, and later he denies and converts to another religion he should be killed.

I have so far debated the issue of apostacy a few times, and searched for several fatwa on several sites, but not once have I found any conclusive proof that that opinion is true! On the other hand I have seen hadeeth about muslims who came to the prophet (pbuh) and told him that they wanted to leave Islam, yet the prophet didn't react to it. So as far as I know, apostacy is not even punishable, let alone punishable by death. What is however punishable, is the act of treason. And most fatwa that say that apostacies should be killed, base themself on hadeeth where a person commited both apostacy and treason. In none of these hadeeth it is specified why this person was punished, so it could just as well be purely for the treason. That means these hadeeth are inconclusive, so as far as know, apostacy is not punishable by death.

As for the quote you posted, I do not consider that good proof for a fatwa. The author makes flawed arguments, that are illogical. Just because things share some similarities, doesn't mean that one equals to the other. That's like saying, piracy is theft, accidental manslaughter is murder, and so on. These simplifications simply won't do. There are two seperate words for a very good reason, because they refer to two seperate concepts. Just because the two concepts share some of the same charesteristics does not make them equal. So we have no authority to say, that the rules which Allah subhana wa ta'ala has, by guidance of the prophet peace be upon him regarding treason aslo are true for apostacy. By doing so, we would make the same mistakes of the Jews who altered their covenant by changing it as they saw fit. Surely this is errorous. The question you brought up about children born in Islam show that error perfectly.

[Qatada]

asalam alykum

You can pose your question here too insha Allah:

Http://ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe

There are scholars and students of knowledge there upon the Sunnah who may be of help.

[salman]

^Wa'alaykum As-Salam

*smile*, certainly they'll be able to explain better.

@salamfromrom

welcome to forum brother and this board does try to uphold the orthodox/traditional position. As far your question, an apostate is to be killed if his apostasy becomes apparent and he doesn't embrace Islam after given da'wah, and time to rethink.

Killing the apostate isn't only the position of the 4 madaahab, but it is also the position of the Salaf and all the traditional scholars. The mind set behind the questions that you raised about compulsion in religion, child born as a Muslim, etc., is nothing more than recent mabo jambo of modernists, because they've left the orthodox Islam and would like to appease kufaar more than their Lord. I'm not saying that you or bro Abdul Fatteh are modernists. Anyway, can they tell us: were the scholars for 14 centuries wrong about this issue? Why did they recently come up with this compound formula of apostasy + treason?

Apostasy itself is a treason against an Islamic state. The modernists just appeal to incorrectly associated opinions to few Salaf scholars and ahadeeth and then distort their meanings. For example, they say that prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) didn't kill some people when they declared their apostasy, appealing to the hadith mentioned by bro Abdul. Or they say that this was the opinion of Imam Sufyaan at-Thawri (radiAllahu anhu - a great Tabi scholar) or Shaykh ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (rahimahullah). All of this has little to do with reality and more to do with their twisted logic, reasoning, and ideology.

I want to remind you and bro Abdul that the issue is not whether there's an Islamic text in favour or against killing an apostate, the issue is how do we understand or interprete that text.

bro salamfromrom, please refer to Addressing Modern Contentions, the speaker touches this issue in first part around the end. The last couple of posts in that thread also touches this issue.

How can a child be killed once he grows up if once attaining the age of being able to think for himself he chooses to not be Muslim. This seems to go against the very essence of freedom to choose your own religion. Am I wrong? Isn't Allah(swt) the only one who can guide? What if He(swt) decides not to guide a specific child born to muslim parents..... how can we kill him.

1 - The ayah "there is no compulsion in religion" has to do with entering into Islam, meaning we don't force people to enter into Islam. However, once they enter into Islam and then leave, then this ayah isn't applicable, because that person was told and informed about the law of an Islamic state regarding apostasy. This is how the scholars have understood it for 14 centuries.

2 - First, we believe that everyone is born as a Muslim. If the child grew up as a Muslim, then this was decreed for him. He didn't get the chance to choose to enter Islam; it was decreed for him that he would born in a Muslim family. It is responsbility of Muslim parents to give their children good Islamic education. If the child decides to leave Islam, then he was aware of the consequences and he would get what is coming for him.

3 - Allah Ta'ala guiding people has to do with those who seek guidance. This is how we understand this notion. For more please refer to What Does It Mean That Allah Guides Whom He Wills And Misguides Whom He Wills? So, when the proof is established against born in a Muslim family but he rejected it due to his stubbornness, then if he's living an Islamic state and his apostasy becomes apparent then the punishment of death penalty is carried on him.

I hope this helps and indeed Allah Ta'ala knows best.

[salman]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

Selam aleykum

:

before I begin, I want you to know akhee that I love you for Allah, even if we've differences in our views. I would also like to remind everyone, first and foremost myself, that laypeople like us are obliged to ask people of knowledge, the scholars, who we deem trustworthy, pious, knowledgeable, and they're not among the people of bid'ah. We cannot interpret the ahadeeth or ayaat of the Qur'an or an abridged quotes/statements of the scholars because we don't have enough knowledge to do so.

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

I have so far debated the issue of apostacy a few times, and searched for several fatwa on several sites, but not once have I found any conclusive proof that that opinion is true!

akhee, I'm surprised to hear this; there is more than enough evidence in the favour of orthodox position regarding apostasy.

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

On the other hand I have seen hadeeth about muslims who came to the prophet (pbuh) and told him that they wanted to leave Islam, yet the prophet didn't react to it.

akhee, the people who did this, they left Medina after telling the Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam). How can the Messenger of Allah (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) carry the hadd on them when they left the Islamic state?

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

What is however punishable, is the act of treason. And most fatwa that say that apostacies should be killed, base themself on hadeeth where a person commited both apostacy and treason.

akhee, the wording "most fatwas" is misleading. I don't know which most fatwas you read. In fact, the most fatwas say that kill the apostate, treason or no treason. As I mentioned in my previous post, the apostasy itself is a crime/treason against the Islamic state. It doesn't matter whether an apostate shows hostility toward Muslims or Islamic state because he already did so when he left Islam by breaking the covenant as denial of the testimony after its affirmation is a breach of the covenant. The ahadith are clear on this matter, they didn't say kill an apostate if he/she commits treason; they ahadith say kill the apostate:

Whoever changes his religion, put him to death. [Sahih Bukhari]

The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas (Law of Equity) for murder; a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse; and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims. [Sahih Bukhari and Muslim]

Should we also abandon the other punishments in Islam because the ayah says "there is no complusion in religion"?

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

In none of these hadeeth it is specified why this person was punished, so it could just as well be purely for the treason. That means these hadeeth are inconclusive, so as far as know, apostacy is not punishable by death.

If I can remember correctly, I don't think that's how the hadith goes. Even we suppose that it is true, it is not proof for treason being inclusive.

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

So we have no authority to say, that the rules which Allah subhana wa ta'ala has, by guidance of the prophet peace be upon him regarding treason aslo are true for apostacy. By doing so, we would make the same mistakes of the Jews who altered their covenant by changing it as they saw fit. Surely this is errorous. The question you brought up about children born in Islam show that error perfectly.

1 - you brought up good point about legislating by sharee'ah. The mistake point should be brought forward to modernists and they should explain their position as they disagree with orthodox position.

2 - the child born in Muslim family doesn't show any error and I've explained it above

Wallahu A'lam

[Qatada]

asalam alykum

Furthermore, in islam the apostate is allowed to come back to the religion by the scholars answering his doubts.

Whereas in other nations - if someone commits treason - they're either under capital punishment, jailed for life (literally - so its like death), assasinated, or blackmailed to prove their loyalty.

In islam, his reversion back to islam is accepted and the muslims are not allowed to doubt his islam (although he may conceal disbelief within himself). Allahu a'lam.

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum
Brother salman, I won't be answering to your questions for the following reasons:
1. It's hypocritical to point out that I am not in a position to make any statements, and then at the same time instigate a debate about the issue. Either you believe Allah subhana wa ta'ala gave us intelligence to think for ourselves and question even the scolars, or you believe that those who haven't studied should simply ignore their analytical thinking and follow the scolar of their preference. And yes I know the salaf say, you don't follow a leader by choice, and I respect that position alot. But then I see most salafi muslims just following the salafi scolars without questioning. Anyway, my point was, don't attack my viewpoints while hiding behind scolar X or Scolar Y.
2. Your arguments are circular, some of them are even plain wrong.
3. I really really really don't want to have this kind of debate with you (or anyone else for that matter). Cause I know in the end we'll just be running in circles eitherway and I don't see the point of it.

I will however leave you with the following article instead:
Ps: sorry if I sound harsh Brother, it's nothing personal.

"Is Killing An Apostate in the Islamic Law?"
by Ibrahim B. Syed, Ph. D. President of the Islamic Research Foundation International, Inc.

Ridda or Irtidãd: Literally means "turning back". The act of apostasy -- leaving Islam for another religion or for a secular lifestyle. Murtadd: Literally means "one who turns the back." An apostate.
Murtad Fitri: Literally means apostate - natural. A person born of a Muslim parent who later rejects Islam.
Murtad Milli: Literally means apostate - from the community. A person who converted to Islam and later rejected the religion.

Due lack of education and critical thinking several myths have taken root in the Muslim world over the ages, and there have not been any efforts in the past to clear these doubts. On the contrary, there has been a sort of effort to strengthen these myths and misconceptions. These misinterpretations of Islamic teachings have taken their toll on the Muslim world and have strengthened a misplaced perception that Islam is a symbol of obscurantism, a religion of intolerance and answers everything with the sword.

And there is no bigger misconception-strengthened with misunderstanding of Islamic beliefs over the years-other than the belief that Islam doesn't tolerate apostasy. The Christian missionaries and the Western world are cashing in on it. Ulama have tried to strengthen their point of view and several leading Muslim reformists have failed to tackle the issue. This misconception has also presented Islam as a medieval and killer religion. Islam bashers have time and again tried to carry the point by pointing out that Islam orders the killing of a
person if he or she reverts to another religion from Islam.

No body is forthcoming to challenge this widely held belief as well as put forth a convincing argument about the misinterpretation of Qur'anic teachings by Ulama.

The Qur’an is completely silent on any worldly punishment for apostasy and the sole Tradition that forms the basis of rulings is open to many interpretations.

Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said: ‘Whosoever changes his religion, Kill Him (man baddala Dinahu faqtuluhu)’”
It is this last quote from the Prophet that forms the basis of the said ruling.

While jurists are agreed on the authenticity of this tradition, they differ very widely on the appropriate interpretation and thus, the law concerning apostasy. Understanding the different viewpoints, and arriving at the truth is crucial to our discussion of this subject.

This tradition does not refer to Muslims who leave the religion of Islam for other religions. Finally, there is the crucial dispute over the nature of the punishment and the crime. Al-Nakha’ee and, according to Sha’rani, al-Thawri, hold that the apostate is a grave sinner who should however be continuously called back to the fold for the rest of his life, and not killed. By implication, they do not consider the offence a hadd (fixed penalty) offence with a fixed punishment that must be carried out. This view is similar to the view that apostasy is a
sin that carries no fixed punishment, and any penalty for it is discretionary (ta’zeer). This is a view held by the Hanbali scholar, Ibn Taimiya and he attributes it as well to the Maliki Imam al-Baji. Among Hanafites, the jurist Shamsuddeen al-Sarakhshi holds the same view. He says in al Mabsut that the fixed penalties or hudud are generally not suspended because of repentance, especially when they are reported and become known to the Imam.
He then adds in the case of apostasy “renunciation of the faith and conversion to disbelief is admittedly the greatest of offences, yet it is a matter between man and his Creator, and its punishment is postponed to the day of Judgement. (“fa’l jaza’ ‘alayha mu’akhkhar ila dar al-jaza”).

If repentance is accepted, then apostasy is not a hadd offence with a fixed punishment. Secondly, once scholars accept that a Muslim apostate has the right to be given the opportunity to repent, they lose the right to set a time limit for his repentance.

Allah (SWT) says in the Glorious Qur’an (39: 53-54: Say: “ O you servants of Mine who have transgressed against your own selves! Despair not of God’s mercy. Behold God forgives all sins, for verily He is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace! Hence, turn toward your sustainer and surrender yourselves unto him before the suffering (of death and resurrection) comes upon you for then you will not be succored.”

Any scholar who says the death sentence applies to leaving the faith, then the convict is to be given a life-time to repent, and this is the view of Sufyan al-Thawri, Ibrahim al-Nakha’ee, Shamsuddeen al-Sarakhshi, Imam al-Baji and, by strong implication, Ahmad Ibn Taimiya. One must conclude that the death sentence is not for “simple apostasy” (mujarrad al-ridda), but for apostasy accompanied by treason and sedition, or by the abuse and slander (sabb) of the Noble Prophet.

Freedom to convert to or from Islam

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance." Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The Glorious Qur'an says, "Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Surely the Right Path is clearly distinct from the crooked path." Al Baqarah, 2:256.

"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief
- Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path." Surah An-Nisa', 4:137.

For example, the Qur'an says: "Let him who wishes to believe, do so; and let him who wishes to disbelieve, do so."
(Al-Kahf: 29)

In another verse, Allah Almighty says: "Yours is only the duty to convey the message; you are not a guardian over them." (Al-Ghashiyah: 21- 22)

The quotation from Surah An-Nisa', 4:137, shown above, seems to imply that multiple, sequential apostasies are possible. That would not be possible if the person were executed after the first apostasy.

From the above verses it can be argued that religious freedom and the absence of compulsion in religion requires that individuals be allowed adopt a religion or to convert to another religion without legal penalty.

Hence the death penalty is not an appropriate response to apostasy.

The former Chief Justice of Pakistan, SA Rahman, has written that there is no reference to the death penalty in any of the 20 instances of apostasy mentioned in the Qur'an.

Muslims who support the death penalty for apostasy use as their foundation the above cited hadith, in which the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said: "Kill whoever changes his religion." But this is a weak foundation because this hadith was only transmitted from Muhammad (pbuh) by one individual. It was not confirmed by a second person. According to Islamic law, this is insufficient confirmation to impose the death penalty.
The Shari`ah has not fixed any punishment for apostasy.

The hadith is so generally worded that it would require the death penalty for a Christian or Jew who converted to Islam. This is obviously not the prophet's intent. The hadith is in need of further specification, which has not been documented. Many scholars interpret this passage as referring only to instances of high treason.
(e.g. declaring war on Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), God, etc.).

There is no historical record, which indicates that Muhammad (pbuh) or any of his companions ever sentenced anyone to death for apostasy.

The issue of killing a murtad or the apostate is not a simple one. Scholars have debated it from various angles and it is not simply an issue of killing someone for choosing one religion or another.

The question of apostasy has been debated among scholars based on their interpretations of some hadiths since the Qur'an does not specify any worldly punishment for it. For example, there was a case at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) where a man came to him in three consecutive days and told him that he wanted to apostate. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never took any action against him, and when the man finally left Madina, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never sent anyone to arrest him, let alone kill him.

This is why some scholars distinguished between individual apostasy and apostasy which is accompanied by high treason. So, it cannot be confused with the freedom of conscience for every individual, which has been guaranteed in the Qur'an through hundreds of verses.

For example, one version of a hadith narrated by `A'isha (RA) concerning apostasy relates to one who left his religion and fought against Muslims.

QUR'ANIC VIEWS

The Qur’an has referred to the issue of apostasy at more than one place (for example see Al-Baqarah 2: 217, Al-Baqarah 2: 108, A’l Imra’n 3: 90, Al-Nisa’ 4: 137 and Al-Nahl 16: 106). But at none of these places does the Qur’an mention the punishment of death for such people who change their religion. The Qur’an does mention that such people shall face a terrible punishment in the hereafter but no worldly punishment is mentioned at any of these instances in the Qur’an. This situation obviously raises a question mark in the mind of the reader that if Allah had wanted to give the punishment of an apostate a permanent position in the Shari`ah, the punishment should have been mentioned, at least at one of the above mentioned places. If the Qur’an had kept completely silent about the apostate, the matter would have been different. But the strange thing is that the Qur’an mentions apostasy, and still does not mention the punishment (if any) it wants the apostate to be subjected to.

Furthermore, the Qur’an has strictly disallowed the imposition of the death penalty except in two specific cases. One of them is where the person is guilty of murdering another person and the other is where a person is guilty of creating unrest in the country (fasa’d fil-ardh) like being involved in activities that create unrest in a society, for example activities like terrorism etc. The Qur’an says:

Whoever kills a person without his being guilty of murder or of creating unrest in the land, it is as though he kills the whole of mankind. (Al-Ma’idah, 5: 32)

Obviously, apostasy can neither be termed as "murder" nor "creating unrest in the land".

Thus, in view of the above facts, we are left with one option only. We can only say that either the saying has been wrongly ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), as it is clearly contradictory to the Qur’an and the Prophet could not have said anything contradictory to the Qur’an, or that the saying ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) relates not to all apostates but to a particular and specific people.

Shaykh Subhani

Shaykh Inayatullah Subhani (author of the Book Apostasy doesn't carry death penalty in Islam) says that neither Islam forces any person to embrace neither Islam nor it forces him to remain within its fold. He writes, "Apostasy has been mentioned several times in Qur'an. It also describes the bad treatment that will be meted out for committing apostasy, but it never talks of punishment for the crime in this world." The learned scholar mentions three Ayaat (verses) from Qur'an on apostasy (Al-Baqara 217, Muhammad 25-27 and Al-Maida 54) and then says that none of these Ayaat prescribes any punishment for that though these Ayaat pass strictures on the people who commit it. There are several other Ayaat on the same issue and none of them prescribes either death penalty or any other punishment for apostasy in this world. He then adds that had there been some punishment in Islam for
apostasy there was no reason as to why the issue was mentioned repeatedly in Qur'an but no punishment was prescribed.

Misinterpretation of the hadith, Man baddala Dinahu faqtuluh (kill him who changes his religion) has caused the problem. This order has been made to look general and permanent, though it was said in a particular circumstance for a particular group. Shaykh Subhani writes that this order was made to counter a scheme prepared by Jews of Madinah. They had planned that some of them embrace Islam for some time and then return to their old religion.
Then some other people do the same. It was aimed to create restlessness among Muslims against their own leadership so that the strong Muslim unity should start crumbling. It was made clear in Qur'an in (Aal Imran, 3: 72-73).

To counter this planning the Prophet (SAW) ordered his companions to act in such a manner. Despite this order lengthy investigations were made to ascertain that the case was true and the person concerned was given adequate time to explain before the punishment was carried out.

Shaykh Subhani says lack of clear grasp of Qur'an misguided even leading Ulama. Otherwise it was not difficult to understand the hadith. Qur'anic teachings on the issue were not kept in mind.

He emphasizes that people who were awarded death penalty for reverting to other religions from Islam during the time of the Prophet (SAW) or during the reign of his caliphs were not given the punishment for the crime of apostasy but for the fact that they were at war with Muslims and Islamic government.

Shaykh Subhani regrets that punishment that was prescribed for certain people under special circumstances was made to look like a general order. He says that it was the order for people who posed threat to Islamic state and became at war with Islam and not for any person who reverts to other religion.

A number of Islamic scholars from past centuries, Ibrahim al-Naka'I, Sufyan al-Thawri, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi, Abul Walid al-Baji and Ibn Taymiyyah, have all held that apostasy is a serious sin, but not one that requires the death penalty. In modern times, Mahmud Shaltut, Sheikh of al-Azhar, and Dr Mohammed Sayed Tantawi have concurred.

In conclusion, we must never confuse the issue of killing a murtad with the freedom of conscience guaranteed in the Glorious Qur'an. For a detailed discussion, one should read (1) the Dr. Yusuf Al-Qaradawi's book on this issue:
Jareemat ar-riddah wal murtadd (The Crime of Apostasy and Apostate) - published by Ar-Risalah foundation.

(2) Apostasy doesn't carry death penalty in Islam (Book: Tabdili-e-Mazhab aur Islam) by Maulana Inayatullah Asad Subhani)-published by Idara Ihya-e-Deen, Bilariya Ganj, Azamgarh (UP, India) Pages: 108, Price Rs 30.

REFERENCES
1. Apostasy -- Irtidad -- in Islam

2. "Islam, Apostasy and PAS," 1999-JUL-22, at: http://www.muslimtents.com/sistersinislam/

3. S.A. Rahman, "Punishment of apostasy in Islam," Kazi Publ., (1986). Limited availability from Amazon.com online
bookstore).

[salman]

^Wa'alaykum As-Salam

akhee, I respect your views and I don't want to debate you either. But please let me say this:
1) I didn't say that we don't use our intellect and nor I was being hypocrite. It is preposterous to claim that for 14 centuries Muslims got it all wrong even though the Islamic texts were clear about this.
2) our intellect is limited and Allah Ta'ala told us in the Qur'an that we ask the people of knowledge
3) you're asking me not to appeal to understanding of the earliest scholars but you're doing the same thing when you appealed to understaning of these handful modernists.

For benefit of others, I'll try to respond to this article after my exams and consluting and seeking help from knowledgable brothers. I think it is about time that we come clear about this issue on this board.

[Assad]

As per my little understanding, the confusion is usually caused as their are 2 hadiths which contain instructions related to apostasy.
One includes apostasy and the treason act/betrayal while the other hadith clearly points out that punishment of apostasy is death ( as bro Salman pointed out the hadith).

If we talk about appealing to rationality than today its considered a treason which is punishable to death If someone goes against a country constitution or ,say, the Military General pass top secrets of his country to the enemy, so he has committed a treason and is punishable to death. Compared to this, the act to become rebel against God when He Guided the person, its the crime of highest nature.

So I am of the opinion that apostasy punishment is death, unless ofcourse, proved otherwise.

[salamfromrom]

Salam

unfortunately this debate has been transformed into a general debate into apostasy which was not my intention. I only wished to better understand the reasoning behind the Killing those brought up as muslims, not of apostates in general.


So far, this has been the best (and only) explanation (thx bro)

2 - First, we believe that everyone is born as a Muslim. If the child grew up as a Muslim, then this was decreed for him. He didn't get the chance to choose to enter Islam; it was decreed for him that he would born in a Muslim family. It is responsbility of Muslim parents to give their children good Islamic education. If the child decides to leave Islam, then he was aware of the consequences and he would get what is coming for him.

So Allah(swt) choose for him this religion and there's no need of any rational thinking and accepting the faith on his part? I find this hard to believe. I'm sure you know, there's no direct proof for your stance on this one no offence. The Qur'an is a message for humanity and it asks people to Think and Reflect. There's no hadith which says that Those born and brought up in islam have been deprived by their choice(to be muslim or not) from their creator. I don't believe Allah(swt) forces anyone to enter into islam if they don't want it.

This is the (I believe) achiles heel in your (and the majority position) in this specific instance. This "god made a choice for you and you can never refuse" is simply (in my view offcourse) alien to the very core of Islam.

I'm all for the punishment of those who come into the islamic state, pledge their alliegiance to serve Allah(swt) and then desert, but I cannot for the life of me imagine a world in which a baby is forced by the family/society to accept a life which doesn't agree with his aquired worldview and which gives him no right to refuse.

remember how the quran reminds us again and again that "whomever Allah sends astray no one can guide? You are assuming that Allah(swt) has automatically Guided those born to muslim parents, while in reality you must agree, Only Allah(swt) can put true faith inside one's heart....and there is no Ayat, no hadith and nothing from the sunnah which tells us that a person born to muslim parents is GUARANTEED to be guided. This is what I meant by my above statement, that on this assumption you have no proof from the quran or sunnah.

Another issue which came to mind is that nowadays, unlike the time of Muhammad(pbuh) , Islam means many things to many people. If hypothetically speaking we will have in the future an islamic state, that state will comprise many muslims of many aqeedas (even those on the wrong aqeedah and others) ......what should be done with the ones like sufis / shias etc .....will the givernment try to force them to adopt the true aqeedah or else kill them? Im sure this is not your view, because that would be genocidal offcourse.

Salam