> Compelling non-Muslims to accept Islam or pay Jizyah?

[optimist]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

I have not singled him out from the rest of the scholars of the past because I said earlier that this is a view that virtually no one adopted. There is not a single case in history where any khalifa from the rightly guided ones or other than them who applied this view that was never even adopted by the majority of the fuqaha. Most of the fuqaha of all schools said other than this fatwa. Ibn katheer does not even sanction this view. The reason why I attacked the fatwa itself is because it is something that has never been a part of Islamic discussion except in recent times finding precedence by general statements of some scholars that don't even allude in a clear way to the notion of the fatwa.

Salam,

Thank you for this comments.

It is first time in my life I came across someone saying that the verses in the Quran like "there is no compulsion in religion", “you have your religion and we have ours” and “whoever wants to believe shall believe and whoever wants to disbelieve may do so,” have been in one way or other got abrogated!!

wassalam

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by optimist

Salam,

Thank you for this comments.

It is first time in my life I came across someone saying that the verses in the Quran like "there is no compulsion in religion", “you have your religion and we have ours” and “whoever wants to believe shall believe and whoever wants to disbelieve may do so,” have been in one way or other got abrogated!!

wassalam

thats why you need to learn thoroughly the fundamentals of Islam and its sciences because you would have known that there were various scholars who understood based on some evidences that the ayaah "there is no compulsion in religion" to be abrogated by the verse of the sword.

However, from the more relied upon Imaams and the jurisprudents of all madhaabs, the ayaah of the sword was actually a takhsees (specification) of the ayaah of "la ikraha fi deen" and not an abrogation.

Ibn Taymiyyah actually commentated that some jurists fell into an error thinking that a command was actually abrogated by another rather than understanding that one command was actually a more specific aspect of a general command located elsewhere.

lastly, what I was talking about is something different than your argument. What I was talking about was the issue of accepting jizya from the mushrikeen, and not about the abrogation of the ayaah "there is no compulsion in deen". that was not what I was talking about.

asalamu alaikum

[optimist]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

Ibn Taymiyyah actually commentated that some jurists fell into an error thinking that a command was actually abrogated by another rather than understanding that one command was actually a more specific aspect of a general command located elsewhere.

Salam,

I believe that, it is actually the inability to explain to verses of the Quran properly which lead people to believe in the theory of abrogation.

wassalam

[salman]

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

Salam

I must say I completely agree with the view that we should establish shariah on every country on earth. (even though there will naturally be obstacles to this , especially now in a nuclear armed world)

If I may, I would like to ask for clarification for the following (I really dont know what the word ''compelled'' means in this context)

By compelled,do they mean that:

1. they should accept being dhimmis in an islamic state

or

2. become full muslims or face execution (no other option is to be given to them)

I don't understand what they mean when they say that jizya is not to be taken from them. how can these people (atheists and other groups from which jizya cannot be taken) live under the protection of the islamic state and not pay any taxes?

what I understood from their speech is that they meant the latter (no jizyah option is given to them - become Muslim or face execution). They made their ijtihad and they gave reasoning and evidence; however, their ijtihad was not correct as other scholars have mentioned and Allah knows best

honestly akhee, other than the purpose of learning or to answer the questions of kuffaar, there is no fadhl (benefit) for laypeople to dwell in these issues, specially in today's age because they bring no benefit to us in terms of our daily affairs and worship. in fact, they only confuse us, make us say things which we shouldn't and give shaytan a chance to put doubts in our heart: this is all due to our lack of knowledge.

may Allah forgive us and keep us on haqq, ameen

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

I deleted them because you being a layman unfairly attacked the people of knowledge. You do not have a clue why some of the scholar have made these statements; they did not invent from blue - they made their ijtihad and they gave their evidence and reasoning from the Shari'ah. I did not delete akhee boriqee's post because 1) I already made clear that I did not like his manners while addressing this issue 2) just like us his asl of not agreeing with this fatawa is different than yours and he has clarified it.

Salam,

I was upholding the opinion of majority of scholars who analysed the issue in the correct perspective. I am not belittle this scholar and his effort. I am fully aware that he is sincere in his heart (I respect him for this), but he approachs this issue based on wrong pradigims and reaches wrong conclusions. It is the reason why he claimed abrogation of some verses in the Quran. Let me quote brother Al Boriqee;

"There is not a single case in history where any khalifa from the rightly guided ones or other than them who applied this view that was never even adopted by the majority of the fuqaha. Most of the fuqaha of all schools said other than this fatwa."

If you are convinced that this scholar 'did not invent this from blue', and his analysis is correct and all others have wrongly understood the issue, you must tell it clearly.

But if you find his understanding is wrong, you must show courage to tell clearly that he is wrong. Because the damage it will cause to Islam (please know we dont have a life without Islam) will be far reaching. With tears in my eyes I am saying this.

Wassalam

[salman]

^

first and foremost thing, we the laypeople, do not have the tools to analyze the texts and understanding of the scholars and then say "fullan view of the fullan scholar is not correct because it is not in accordance with text etc.". We are obliged by the Qur'an to ask the people of knowledge, those who are trustworthy, known for their knowledge and piety.

secondly, here we are discussing the matters of fiqh and not tawheed because there is no valid difference of opinion in matters of tawheed. In matters of fiqh, sometime the difference of opinions are valid and other times they are weak or odd. Hence, for us to say "fullan scholar is wrong" while lacking in knowledge and not having properly studied the matter is completely incorrect. Almost 90% of the times, whatever opinion (with some evidence) is presented to a layman, he will think it is the strongest and correct and if another opinion (with some evidence) on same issue is presented then he will think that one is most correct. This is all due to our inability and lacking in knowledge. When we say that some scholar made wrong ijtihad or erred in his understanding then that is based upon the understanding and sayings of other scholars.

No one is saying that we should not point out the errors of scholars or they are infallible or we should follow their mistakes; however, this is not the job of laypeople. We are obliged to refer to people of knowledge and in matters of fiqh seek fatawa from them and if our heart is not satisfied then we ask someone who is better in knowledge and piety and then stick to it without spreading it around as if that what Islam says or forcing it down other people's throat. This is in regard to seeking fatawa as far learning then that is whole different issue.

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by optimist

Salam,

I believe that, it is actually the inability to explain to verses of the Quran properly which lead people to believe in the theory of abrogation.

wassalam

wrong

the fault of "some" jurist to have view abrogation for a particular matter rather than specification does not denote
1. Inability of the extraction of what was intended of the law, rather it merely denotes a slip of human mistake

2. More importantly, what leads people to the Islamic concept of abrogation is the fact that Allah himself revealed this fact as an integral part of His overall shariah in relation to prev ious shariahs and within the final shariah to man, and the Islamic concept of abrogation that is attested by Allah Himself and of those who calls themselves Muslims understand quite well that it is an integral part of Islamic law. Their recognition of this Islamic concept is the result of Allah and not the result of the slight "errors" of the jurists

only the people of heresy have rejected the saying and ayaah of Allah on abrogation. To deny it is as much of an insanity as those who deny the ruling of hijaab.

[salamfromrom]

Salam

I believe this thread has been beneficial to me. Now when I am confronted by the oft-repeated allegation that muslims are supposed to convert people by the sword I can tell them what bro Boriqee said -which is that this view has never been adopted by any islamic rulers in our whole history.

Thank you very much for the participation brothers. May Allah(swt) continue to guide the Ummah.

[al-boriqee]

Please leave my name out of this

everyone has to remember that principally, there is not a beleivet except that he views that there is no system of governance that is legitimate except te governance of Allah which by default entails that there are two levels of submission

1. Submission to the rule of Allahs legislation on earth, which is an absolute must

2. Submission to be Muslim, which is not enforced on people.