> Why Prophet married a young girl? One of typical attack at Islam

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Originally Posted by asma

In that case , i have my aunt who is alive who got married at the age of 13. she had 3 children and now having her great grand children.

i myself have an aunt who got married at 10, and mashaAllah what a happy marriage it is

[salman]

^i don't understand why the hate-mangors have problem with it when the girl, who is the victim, doesn't have problem with her marriage and she is happy and loves her husband.

Off course, we're no encouraging early marriages but only defending the fact that not all 9 years old girl are same and if consummating the marriage has no negative affects on girl and she is happy with her marriage then no one should have a problem with it.

[Assad]

The bride and groom who got happily married have no problem . They are living a cool life. But some people here seems to have a problem. Well its only there problem and they should on there own solve it . We cant be solving other such people problems here like this.

[Umm Sufyaan]

Originally Posted by q8sobieski

Umm Sufuyan claimed: "It is well known that girls in warmer parts of the world mature early than girls in other parts of the world!" If this were true, English girls who are raised in Queensland AUS or Nairobi ought to reach puberty sooner than English girls raised in London. But there is simply no evidence to support this. Furthermore, Hijazi Arab girls raised in Geneva would have their puberty retarded. Nobody has ever reported this. Umm Sufuyan's claim just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Seeing that it isn’t actually possible to scrutinize something that I haven’t even made a claim about, I agree, indeed it does not stand up to scrutiny at all! Thank you for clarifying that. Where on earth have I even made a statement concerning girls “trading places” and being raised on opposite ends of the earth. All I said was exactly as you quoted “It is well known that girls in warmer parts of the world mature early than girls in other parts of the world!" where on earth did I mention being raised on opposite ends on the planet! :confused: Just for the record I was thinking of girls born and raised in warmer parts of the earth, in this case Saudi.
My god! You don’t need me tell you where this one goes, do you?!

Acid's article states at the beginning; "In the 1830’s, the average age of a girls first menstruation was 17. Now, it’s 13." If this is true, it would be hard to make the claim that somebody 1400 years ago would have been menstruating EVEN younger than 13. And the article even claims; "Scientists already know that most of the drop in the age of puberty is because of better nutrition." Acid's article directly contradicts Umm Sufuyan's comments. Thanks for making my job easier.

You pluck out one result although there is enough evidence to suggest that there is a stronger opinion. Honestly… the weakness of your debate!

Furthermore, Acid's article goes on to make some interesting claims;

"The more interaction, the more number of hours that fathers spent taking care of the daughter, the more close and warm those interactions were, the later the daughter was going through puberty. But if the relationship with the father was cold, or if the father was completely absent, puberty came early."


This is a fascinating thesis. I would like to see more studies on this. I would like to see it done with a larger population and controlled for more variables with both stepfathers and fathers who adopted their daughters at birth. However, Acid, you do realize that this article has make Islam very vulnerable to a serious charge:

If early-onset female puberty is caused be traumatic relations with a girl's father. And, if Aisha started puberty very early (age 9 -- far before the average). Then it stands to reason that Aisha may have had a highly traumatic relationship with either Mohammad or Abu Bakr or both.

Oh my lord, lol! You’ve done it again! Have you considered being a comedian? Perhaps that’ll be more suited for you better than a debtor.

Once again your argument is flawed or a couple of reasons
Firstly, the study is concentrated around the treatment of the girls in the first five years of their lives

And the most crucial time for this father effect to occur seems to be the first five years of a girls life. It’s a trend that rings true for Jacinta.

Funny how in one of your previous posts you included the rest of that paragraph, but seem to have “forgotten” this part!
&

She found the most important factors in determining early puberty were divorce or family violence in the first five years of a girls life.

&

They suspect that family breakdowns in the first five years of childhood

Ahh but you see our dear Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) wasn’t even married at that age! Need I go on?!

Oh what the heck, why not!? I must say I’m quite enjoying seeing your humiliation!

As for her father mistreating her, oh geez, really! Get your head out of the gutter! He only wanted well for her, as a responsible father does for his daughter, hence his giving her away at that age. What a darling he was! And why not marry your daughter to a man of such noble and unmatchable manners and characteristics. I mean one of Prophets name was ‘al-Ameen,’ the trustworthy.

The Prophet was a trustworthy and honest person. He never behaved treacherously, nor did he lie or cheat; he was known amount his people as ‘al-Ameen,’ or ‘The Trustworthy.’ People would entrust him with their valuables when they wanted to travel. He was also known as ‘as-Siddeeq or the truthful for he never told a lie. He was well-mannered, well-spoken, and he loved to help people. His people loved and revered him and he had beautiful manners.

“Muhammad, the messenger of Allah,” by Abdul-Rahman al-Sheba.

Why wouldn’t you marry your daughter to a man of this character?

Oh Hey look, even the disbelievers of this time have something good to say about him.

“I looked into history for a human paradigm and found it to be in Muhammad.”
Wolfgang Gothe
--------
“It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knew how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for the might Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which maybe familiar to many, yet I myself feel, whenever I reread them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher. -Annie Besant in "The Life and Teachings of Mohammad."
--------
“Muhammad was a shinning example to his people. His character was pure and stainless. His house, his dress, his food-they were characterized by a rare simplicity. So unpretentious was he that he would receive from his companions no special mark of reverence, nor would he accept any service from his slave which he could do for himself. He was accessible to all at all times. He visited the sick and was full of sympathy for all. Unlimited was his benevolence and generosity as also was his anxious care for the welfare of the community. Dr. Gustav Weil in "History of the Islamic Peoples."

“Muhammad, the messenger of Allah,” by Abdul-Rahman al-Sheba.


And secondly, concerning the article, I mean really you dismisses claims that at least can sound scientifically valid because it is pro-Islam, but then some rubbish argument about relationships with fathers and suddenly it’s the most amazing theory in the world that you can't get enough of because its anti-Islam! Oh puh-lease! I mean that alone defeats your whole your point!

So Einstein, before your head swells too big, next time read the ‘fine print.’

And As for the ‘serious charge’ than, as far as I’m concerned, you can take it and go jump in the lake! Islam is far above having anyone question it especially nomads of your type. Who do you bloody think you are!!

I like how the two responses above, one from Acid and one from Um Sufyan both contradict each other and make my point.

Sooo…urrrmm …eerrr…what was it exactly?:rolleyes:
*tut*


If your only objective here is to Insulting our religion and our imams, as this is what it seems, than you can turn your back and leave right now because it will not be tolerated


And lastly I advice you repent from these heinous comments, as you have made yourself vulnerable to a serious charge!


---Mods/admins please close this thread lest another vile attack is made.

[salman]

^sister, leave the hate mangor alone. He can rant all he wants but he hasn't proved anything.

[Assad]

No need to close the thread . We are not afraid to debate . We are happy to debate with anyone.

[Umm Sufyaan]

^debate is more than welcome, insulting islam is not. That's why i asked the thread to be closed.

[salman]

As-Salamu 'Alaykum

I had a debate with few atheists on this topic about a week ago. I'm going to share the conversation and I'm sure it'll be beneficial for everyone, insha'Allah

pardon the harsh tone:

Originally Posted by maj1n

No, Muhammad decided to marry Aisha because he saw Aisha as a baby in a dream.

Narrated 'Aisha:

Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.'
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/087.sbt.html#009.087.140

My Response:

so the hadith says that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) had a dream in which he say her as his bride. So where does the hadith say that he decided to purpose her after seeing this dream? This is what happens when ignorants think they have become Shaykh. Now let me quote you a real Shyakh, Shaykh Muhammad Salih al-Munajjid says:

There is nothing in the hadeeth to indicate that his marriage to 'Aa'ishah was as a result of that dream. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) asked her father for her hand in marriage, and her father Abu Bakr gave her in marriage, in the usual fashion, as is indicated in the following hadeeth:

" 'Urwah reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) asked Abu Bakr for 'Aa'ishah's hand in marriage, and Abu Bakr said to him: 'But I am your brother.' He said: 'You are my brother according to the religion and Book of Allah (i.e., my brother in Islam), and she is permissible for me (to marry)." (Bukhaari, 4691).

In his commentary Ibn Hajar (may Allah have mercy on him) said: "Ibn Abi 'Aasim reported via Yahyaa ibn 'Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Haatib from 'Aa'ishah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) sent Khawlah bint Hakeem to Abu Bakr to ask for 'Aa'ishah's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr asked her, 'Is she right for him? Because she is the daughter of my brother.' Khawlah went back and mentioned this to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). He told her: 'Go back and tell him: "You are my brother in Islam, and your daughter is right for me."' She went back to Abu Bakr and told him, and he said: 'Call the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).' So he came and the marriage was performed."

The phrase "You are my brother according to the religion and Book of Allah (i.e., my brother in Islam)" was referring to the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): "The believers are nothing else than brothers (in Islamic religion)�" [al-Hujuraat 49:10] and other similar aayaat. The phrase "she is permissible for me (to marry)" means it is permissible to marry her even though she is the brother's daughter, because the kind of brotherhood that would prevent such a marriage is the brotherhood of descent (same parent) or of radaa'ah (by being breastfed in infancy by the same woman), not the brotherhood of faith.
Source

Now the narration in Fath Al-Bari regarding the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) sending Khawlah (May Allah be pleased with her) must be understood in the light of other textual evidences; in other words, in the context. It was Khawla (May Allah be pleased with her) who suggested the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) that he should get married as our mother Khadijah (May Allah be pleased with her) had passed away at that time. This narration has been reported in many places.

Musnad Ahmad Hadith no 25210:

����� ���� �� ��� � ��� : ����� ���� �� ���� � ��� : ����� ��� ���� � ����� � ���� : ��� ���� ����� � ���� ���� ��� ���� ����� ����� �� ����� � ���� : �� ���� ���� ��� ���� � ��� : " �� � " ���� : �� ��� ���� � ��� ��� ���� � ��� : " ��� ����� � " ���� : ���� ��� ��� ���� �� ��� ���� ����� ��� ��� ��� � ��� : " ��� ����� � " ���� : ���� ��� ���� � ���� �� � ������� ��� �� ���� " � ��� : " ������ ��������� ��� "

After Khadijah died, Khawlah bint Hakeem, wife of 'Uthman bin Maz'oon said: 'Wouldn't you marry, O prophet of Allah?' He said: 'Who?' She said: 'If you like, a virgin, or a previously married woman.' He said: 'Who is the virgin?' She said: 'The daughter of the most beloved creature to you, Aisha daughter of Abu Bakr.' He said: 'And who is the previously married?' She said: 'Sawda bint Zama; she believed in you and followed you, in what you say.' He said: 'So go, and mention me to them.'

Originally Posted by maj1n

playing with dolls is forbidden in Islam, unless the child is pre-pubertic.

My Response:

according to who? according to Shyakh Majin? Playing with only forbidden dolls is haram in Islam but it may be excused for pre-pubescent children, though it is not encouraged. The forbidden dolls/toys are those, which has face shapes etc. All the scholars have unanimously agreed that the dolls which 'Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) used to play with were not forbidden dolls. Like other scholars, Shyakh Ibn 'Uthamyeen (May Allah have mercy on him) says:

With regard to those in which the shape is incomplete, in which there is only a part of the limbs or head, but the shape is not clear, there is no doubt that these are permissible, and these are like the dolls with which 'Aa'ishah used to play. (Narrated in al-Bukhaari, 6130; Muslim, 2440).

But if the shape is complete, and it is as if you are looking at a person - especially if it can move or speak - then I am not entirely at ease with the idea of them being permissible, because this is a complete imitation of the creation of Allah. It seems that the dolls with which 'Aa'ishah used to play were not like this, so it is preferable to avoid them. But I cannot say that they are definitely haraam, because there are concessions granted to young children that are not granted to adults in such matters. It is natural for young children to play and have fun, they are not obliged to do any of the acts of worship so we cannot say that that they are wasting their time in idle play. But if a person wants to be on the safe side in such matters, he should cut off the head or hold it near the fire until it softens, then he should press it until the features disappear.
Source

Now, burden of proof lies on your shoulders, you have to prove that she used to play with forbidden dolls after she moved to house of Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). I'll be waiting for a textual evidence and good luck looking for one.

His earlier response:

Originally Posted by maj1n

Read the Islamic source again.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

Don't you read the hadith? i even bolded it.

My Response:

no, you need to use that quarter of a brain cell that you have. Ignoring my questions and copying pasting same thing over and over again won't prove your position. All the ahadith say that she had dolls, so what? How does playing with dolls or having them prove that she hadn't reached puberty? The bolded part in the first hadith isn't even part of the hadith. So what you are smoking by claiming that hadith say it.

Let me further debunk your academic dishonesty and complete ignorance and let me quote you what it really says in Fath Al Bari:

Al-Khattaabee said: From this Hadeeth it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat) is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the threat (wa'eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission in this was given to 'Aa'isha (may Allah be pleased with her) is because she at that time not had reached the age of puberty.

[al-Haafiz says:] I say: To say with certainty, [that she was not yet at the age of puberty] is questionable.

Now, if you want to appeal to Al-Khatabe by ignoring the authentic narrations in which 'Aisha herself confessed her maturity, you're committing logical fallacy: appealing to authority. Please continue to do so and let the readers see where you stand.

His rebuttal:

Originally Posted by maj1n

You just supported my argument, you also lied because this wasn't about the dolls, this is all of al-haafiz.

My Response:

how did I lie? The bolded part in the hadith you quoted has been excerpted from the commentary of this khabr hadith and it is related to the dolls. I would have lied if what I quoted doesn't exist in Fath Al-Bari.

Originally Posted by maj1n

Why did you omit that part hmm? the questioning of Aishas puberty by Al-Haafiz there is about Aisha at the time of Khaibar.

My Response:

Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajr (May Allah have mercy on him) was a shafi' and according to shafi' madhab when a person reaches the age of 15 then he/she has certainly hit puberty regardless of whether the person had grown pubic hair or had menses etc, which are the signs of puberty. Off course, their opinion isn't correct; we all know that people can hit puberty before the age of 15. Why would you except me to quote something which is completely wrong and you're inclining toward this wrong opinion? Why are you appealing to Ibn Hajr or Khatabee's opinions when I provided authentic ahadith in which 'Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) said that she had reached the age of puberty?

My Earlier Response:

Evidence # 1:

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 465:
Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abii Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so. He used to pray and recite the Qur'an in it. The pagan women and their children used to stand by him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was a Softhearted person and could not help weeping while reciting the Qur'an. The chiefs of the Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that their children and women might be affected by the recitation of Qur'an)."

His rebuttal:

Originally Posted by maj1n

This doesn't support you at all, Aisha very well would have finished puberty at some stage, but you have to show it was when she was 9 years old.

Btw, 'age of puberty' is not equivalent to finishing puberty, puberty is a process, it is not an arbitrary time you pass.

My Response:
read the hadith again, let me only quote the relevant parts for you.

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 465:
Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty...The chiefs of the Quraish pagans became afraid of that...

So she is narrating an event which happened in Makkah and let's break it down

1- Marriage contract was drawn when she was 6-7 years old, approximately 1.5 years before migration to Medina
2- She attained the age of puberty when this event took place in Makkah; sometime after the marriage contract was drawn and before they migrated to Medina
3- They migrated to Medina
4- The marriage was consummated approximately 1.5 years after the migration when she was 9 years old.

Once a girl hits puberty, it typically takes abut 1-2 years before she finishes the puberty or more or less matures.

Originally Posted by maj1n

You don't know biology do you? many girls START puberty at even 8-10 years old, but you dont HAVE sex with girls when they START puberty, it is only safe when they FINISH puberty, because puberty is a process of sexual maturation, it takes time.

My Response:

I never claimed that you can have sex with girls who just hit puberty. Why are you inserting straw man? I presented the Islamic position: do it with a girl who had reached the age of puberty and physically matured and off course this includes sexual maturation.

My Earlier Response:

Evidence # 2:
Imam Ibn kathir (May Allah have mercy on him) narrates another hadith in his Al- Bidayah wa-Nihayah:

"Imam Bukhari (May Allah have mercy on him) narrates another hadith which he heard from Farwa bin abi Almughria who heard from ali bin Masher who heard from Hisham bin 'Urawh who heard from his father who reports from 'Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her), who said: 'When the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) was betrowth to me, I was six years old. Later, when we migrated from Makkah to Medina and satyed at bin harith bin khdhrj's place, I had grown up. My hair had got longer and I had physically matured; however, I still used to play with other girls...I was nine years old at that time."
Source Page 210-211

His rebuttal:

Originally Posted by maj1n

Your first 'hadith' is not reliable, the only hadith by Bukhari about Aisha and this period where she suffered an illness is here.

My Response:

according to who it is not reliable, you? When did I say that Imam Bukhari (May Allah be pleased with him) reported this hadith in his sahih? Just because he didn't record it in his sahih, doesn't mean it is not reliable or doesn't exist. I quoted you from the work of Imam Ibn Kathir (May Allah have mercy on him), who said that this hadith has been authentically reported.

The hadith tells us that she had physically matured...case closed!

Originally Posted by maj1n

Nothing about puberty, and given your penchant for not posting a whole text to make it look like its supporting you like you did with Al-Haafiz, i dont consider you reliable.

My Response:

LMAO, you've been debunked and this is all you can come up with. I provided you the source, didn't I? I have no intention of lying to prove my position. As far concerning al-hafiz, I have already explained it above. I don't find a reason to quote a wrong opinion, whether it supports me or doesn't.

My Earlier Response:

Evidence # 3:
'Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) said: "When the girl reaches nine years of age she is a woman" (Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Source

Here, she was obviously referring to her own experience.

His rebuttal:

Originally Posted by maj1n

And you just provided a hadith that shows that not even aisha knows how females mature sexually.

Females don't arbitrarily become a woman at 9 years old, it can be different for everyone.

You just completely voided your evidence, you cannot now even trust Aisha's testimony of her sexual maturation.

My Response:

she was basing her opinion on her won experience; thus, proving that she had become a woman when she was 9 years old.

Originally Posted by maj1n

a 9 year old girl is not mature enough to understand sex, it is even more revealing that Aisha was of such a childish mind she still played with dolls with her friends.

My Response:

stop generalizing again, we all know that not all 9 years old girls are the same. Again, playing with dolls doesn't prove anything. Many high school and university girls have dolls, they buy more and many even play with them. So, let's paint all of them with the same brush and call them physically and sexually immature, when many of them sleep with guys all the time. One of my relatives got married to 30+ years old woman and she brought a huge teddy bear with her as part of her dowry. So, let's call her physically/sexually immature as well.

Originally Posted by maj1n

Umm you do realise the hadith are handed down accounts from questionable sources 100 years after Muhammad?

My Response:

why the hypocrisy? Why this isn't the case when you use them to prove your position? Why do you trust them if they are questionable? The science of hadith doesn't exist for nothing. We never say that all the narrations are reliable but the ones I have presented to prove my positions are authentic as agreed upon by many scholars. If we go with your theory then we can't trust the narrations which say she got married at the age of 9. Thus, you got nothing to argue about.

One more thing, educate yourself about this 100/200 years of myth. Ahadith were written during the time of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). Many companions used to write it down while he was alive i.e 'Abdullah ibn Abas (May Allah be pleased with him). The chain of narrators go back to the companions and just because a book was compiled later doesn't prove that original source is old. Abou Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) had written down many of the hadith as this has been reported in Fath al Bari .

Originally Posted by maj1n

And wtf is your argument? many child rape victims grow up to be smart women, that they grow up to be smart women does not somehow mean they had an adult mind when they were raped as a child. Godam your arguments are lame.

My Response:

listen hate-mangor, there is no rape here. Even if we assume this is what happened in 'Aisha's (May Allah be pleased with her) case, why would the victim of child rape, who is sound minded, will say that I spent the best time of my life with the person who rapped for me for years? My arguments prove the fact that her statements about her husband didn't come from a childish mind. Just because you're intellectually challenged and failed to grasp the arguments, doesn't mean my arguments are lame.

[q8sobieski]

Originally Posted by islamiclife

^sister, leave the hate mangor alone. He can rant all he wants but he hasn't proved anything.

The hate-mongers are those who engage in intellectual gymnastics in order to legitimize the heinous act of forced child-marriage. Science offers us only the rare case of precocious puberty as grounds for child marriages. But even in these very uncommon cases, a child's body is only superficially mature. A girl may menstruate and a boy may produce malodorous perspiration, but they are still children. They still possess child-like minds and child-like decision making, and child-like skeletal structures.

Child-marriages, as well as the bartering of women as booty, shall remain a crime against humanity.

[Assad]

Originally Posted by q8sobieski

The hate-mongers are those who engage in intellectual gymnastics in order to legitimize the heinous act of forced child-marriage. Science offers us only the rare case of precocious puberty as grounds for child marriages. But even in these very uncommon cases, a child's body is only superficially mature. A girl may menstruate and a boy may produce malodorous perspiration, but they are still children. They still possess child-like minds and child-like decision making, and child-like skeletal structures.

Child-marriages, as well as the bartering of women as booty, shall remain a crime against humanity.

Look who's talking! Someone who would prefer to spend every night in motel with different woman every night and the guys is talking about crimes against humanity.

A girl may menstruate and a boy may produce malodorous perspiration, but they are still children. They still possess child-like minds and child-like decision making, and child-like skeletal structures.

Even a 30 years inexperienced man be said to have child type mind ! Even you are child like mind. Child like decision making and skeleton doesnt got to do anything with marrying a young girl.

Regards