> Why God's Book Cannot Contain Error

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by salman

We've been asking you, how is it a private and please prove it? Is it just because the fact that Qur'an introduces new rulings? If so please respond to our following points:

It was private because as far as I know no one else was there for the whole of the revelation except Jabreel and Prophet Mohammed. Others could ask Mohammed what he heard but no one else could ask Jabreel so its hearsay.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by salman. Right and you think this is a great logical argument in your favour not realizing that it is a straw man. It is straw man because we believe that Islam is only religion from God, which was revealed to mankind from Adam to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them), and we believe in the books revealed to other Prophets, obviously in the original form. All the Prophets preached the same message except that Shar'eeh rulings differed. Unlike the bible, the Qur'an is consistent with what the Prophets (peace be upon them) before the Messenger of Allah (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) preached. If a certain Shar'eeh ruling is found in the Qur'an but not in the books before it, it doesn't mean it is hearsay or inconsistent because we find the similar pattern in other books before the Qur'an.

Let me respond and it is you that are building in straw not me.

1.This is NOT about what you believe or the value of what is written in the Qu'ran. It's an argument about how seriously we should accept the claim that is was from God. Since Mohammed was the only witness it must be hearsay. Hearsay does not mean its not true but it does mean its unconfirmed.

2. One of your reasons for believing is that you trust in books that no one has ever seen. Hardly, evidence is it?

3. Please explain how the Qu'ran can be seen to be consistent with prophetic messages written in some non-existent 'originals'?

4. What 'other books' are you talking about? Or do you mean the accepted Bible is as near as we can get to these 'originals'?

[salman]

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

It was private because as far as I know no one else was there for the whole of the revelation except Jabreel and Prophet Mohammed. Others could ask Mohammed what he heard but no one else could ask Jabreel so its hearsay.

well, you're incorrect! At times, the revelation used to come in the presence of his (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) companions (may Allah be pleased with them) and sometime in presence of his (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) wives (may Allah be pleased with them).

[salman]

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

Let me respond and it is you that are building in straw not me.

How am I building a straw man? I only explained what we believe in! I didn't even quote you or anyone or your belief! How is that a straw man?

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

1.This is NOT about what you believe or the value of what is written in the Qu'ran. It's an argument about how seriously we should accept the claim that is was from God. Since Mohammed was the only witness it must be hearsay. Hearsay does not mean its not true but it does mean its unconfirmed.

this is where you're wrong, there were times when Allah's Messenger's (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) companions and his wives (may Allah be pleased with them) witnessed him receiving the revelation and then he (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) told them right away what was revealed to him.

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

2. One of your reasons for believing is that you trust in books that no one has ever seen. Hardly, evidence is it?

what do you mean by no one has ever seen? Again, this is a straw man, as we believe in the original Torah, Psalms and Gospel. Are you telling me that no one saw those? You even claim to have them with you.

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

3. Please explain how the Qu'ran can be seen to be consistent with prophetic messages written in some non-existent 'originals'?

1) you first have to show that NT is consistent with previous Prophets' (peace be upon them) teachings as you quoted first and claimed it

2) The Qur'an is more consistent with even the corrupted Torah than the NT

3) All the Prophets preached same basic message, worship ONE God. However over period of time, God revealed new religious, social, economical etc laws for people to follow: praying, not lying, respecting and honouring parents, not murdering, not committing adultery etc. Tell me, is this not found in the Qur'an?

4) As we asked you before and asking again, which Prophet preached following: God is three in one, He has son, the God's son, who is God Himself, will die for people's sins and God can be tempted by Satan?

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

4. What 'other books' are you talking about? Or do you mean the accepted Bible is as near as we can get to these 'originals'?

responded above

[Assad]

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

It was private in the sense that only prophet Mohammed was there, he was the only witness, we have to take his word for it that it was from God. Being silly about it no one else as far as I know heard Angel Jabreel speaking and we cannot ask him what he said so its hearsay.

This is the most silliest argument I have ever seen. bro. Salman as already raised a good question, I would say that then It means that we cant trust bibical authors as well as we have to take their word as being inspired. And Jesus said that He is son of God according to bible so that an heresy because we cannot If he was son of God as only it was between Jesus and God and we certainly cant go and ask God about who Jesus is.

No prophet ever bought up trinity doctrines neither did Jesus but people after him. So that's a clear heresy.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Acid

This is the most silliest argument I have ever seen. bro. Salman as already raised a good question, I would say that then It means that we cant trust bibical authors as well as we have to take their word as being inspired. And Jesus said that He is son of God according to bible so that an heresy because we cannot If he was son of God as only it was between Jesus and God and we certainly cant go and ask God about who Jesus is.

No prophet ever bought up trinity doctrines neither did Jesus but people after him. So that's a clear heresy.

This is not a silly argument, and its not answer to the question to say it is. YOU are getting in a muddle here because you are NOT reading what was written. This is NOT about HERESY (false doctrine) its about HEARSAY (unconfirmed reports)

That is Prophet Mohamed revelation is HEARSAY. As you rightly point out (if we get rid of your wrong word heresy) many OT and NT prophesies are therefore also hearsay.

However, the differences is that Biblically we have a large number of prophets and so its more trustworthy because the message is consistent. Now, as bother Salman pointed out Biblical Prophets are also often Muslim ones but of course as brother Salman said you will only accept the 'original' Bible which does not as far as we know exist. So you have a dilemma, either accept the Bible as we know it is as close to the 'original' as one can get or base your faith at least partly on a book that no one can now see.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by salman

well, you're incorrect! At times, the revelation used to come in the presence of his (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) companions (may Allah be pleased with them) and sometime in presence of his (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) wives (may Allah be pleased with them).

I just need to be clear here. Are you saying that these companions and wives heard or saw or both Jabreel? If so I have never heard that before and in another post you or someone else express it slightly differently implying they saw and heard nothing but where in his presence when it happened and Prophet Mohammed told them what he had heard straight away.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by salman

What do you mean by no one has ever seen? Again, this is a straw man, as we believe in the original Torah, Psalms and Gospel. Are you telling me that no one saw those? You even claim to have them with you.

1) you first have to show that NT is consistent with previous Prophets' (peace be upon them) teachings as you quoted first and claimed it

Silver - I will do this in a few days time as my time is very limited for the next few days.

2) The Qur'an is more consistent with even the corrupted Torah than the NT

Silver - without knowing more details here I cannot comment adequately.

3) All the Prophets preached same basic message, worship ONE God. However over period of time, God revealed new religious, social, economical and laws for people to follow: praying, not lying, respecting and honouring parents, not murdering, not committing adultery etc. Tell me, is this not found in the Qur'an?

4) As we asked you before and asking again, which Prophet preached following: God is three in one, He has son, the God's son, who is God Himself, will die for people's sins and God can be tempted by Satan?

I will respond in full in a few days time on your point 4 as I have teaching commitment at present.

All I will say here is the new laws you mentioned can be found in what you call the Torah so I do not quite understand what you mean - do you mean extra ones only found in the Qu'ran.

But you did not answer my question about you belief in the 'original' let us call it Bible. One must agree with you that if it existed someone must have seen it - at least the author. One presumes then it was either lost or copied and the best evidence is that it was copied so do you accept that what we have as our present day bible, based on all those copies is the best anyone can do and that it should be followed by you?

Or are you happy to trust in some 'original' which is not accessible by you or anyone now so you cannot know what it contained?

[salman]

^^no, I didn't say that they heard Jabreel (peace be upon him) and we believe that no one can see Angels in their original form; however, the companions (may Allah be pleased with them) did see Jabreel (peace be upon him) when he came to Messenger of Allah (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) in the form of man and he asked Prophet (peace be upon him) some questions. I said at times the revelation came while they were with him (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam). So, it is not completely private from that perspective.

Again, as I've already pointed out, the message in the Qur'an is consistent with the basic and common message of previous Prophets (peace be upon them), we don't need the original Bible to verify it as the basic message is still found in the corrupted Bible. If original Bible were to be still around, why would we have a new book from Allah Ta'ala, the Qur'an?

[Assad]

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

This is not a silly argument, and its not answer to the question to say it is. YOU are getting in a muddle here because you are NOT reading what was written. This is NOT about HERESY (false doctrine) its about HEARSAY (unconfirmed reports)

This is a silly argument as I said earlier. Either way be it heresy or hearsay, its inconsistent with the argument which you put which was that it was personal.

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

"It was private because as far as I know no one else was there for the whole of the revelation except Jabreel and Prophet Mohammed. Others could ask Mohammed what he heard but no one else could ask Jabreel so its hearsay."

As I earlier said that this means that Jesus doctrine is also hearsay as no one else was there the whole of the revelation except Jesus and God and the Holy Ghost (so called). No men ever saw angels teaching a Prophet. It is even kiddish to assume it. a Prophet is not a student who needs to sit in a class and wait for his Angel teachers to come and give him classes infront of masses.

However, the differences is that Biblically we have a large number of prophets and so its more trustworthy because the message is consistent. Now, as bother Salman pointed out Biblical Prophets are also often Muslim ones but of course as brother Salman said you will only accept the 'original' Bible which does not as far as we know exist. So you have a dilemma, either accept the Bible as we know it is as close to the 'original' as one can get or base your faith at least partly on a book that no one can now see.

You have again not answered how many Prophets bought bible with them while bible was only inspired to its authors years after Jesus Ascension.

Yes ofcourse original bible does not exist today and If that does not exist so that does not mean that we should start believing in a corrupt bible when a Latest revelation has come from God to His Final Messenger (PBUH). As for the message, the message is bible is totally inconsistent with message of all other prophets. No Prophet preached Trinity. The OT is totally monothestic than the Christianity. So you fail to the test. The original bible is lost and because it is lost, you started believeing in the false one rather then the Latest Revelation from God ie. Quran.