> Why God's Book Cannot Contain Error

[salman]

I don't want to jump in the discussion as I've made my point clear quite few times now and there was no decent response from Mr. SilverJ. In addition, Mr. SilverJ loves the repetition without realizing that it only hurts him at the end.

since we're discussing this from a logic perspective, let's not throw or relay now logical fallacies.

[Assad]

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

1. It has 66 books and about 40 authors, written over perhaps 1,600 years and yet it has a unity about it that is unmistakable.

Your first and most repeated point is smoked here.

The claim of Biblical inerrancy puts the Christian in the position of not just claiming that the original Bible was free of error (and, remember, none of the original autograph manuscripts exist) but that their modern version of the Bible is the end result of an error-free history of copying and translation beginning with the originals. Such a position is so specific that it allows one to falsify it simply by reference to the Bible itself. For example, Gen 32:30 states, "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." However, John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time..." Both statements cannot be true. Either there is an error of fact, or an error of translation. In either case, there is an error. And if there is an error, then infallibility of the Bible (in this case the King James Version) is falsified. A typical defense used here is to look up the meaning of the original Hebrew / Greek, read that one of the words can have multiple meanings, and then pick the meaning that seems to break the contradiction. For example, the Christian might argue that "seen" or "face" means one thing in the first scripture, and something completely different in the second. The logical flaw in this approach is that it amounts to saying that the translator should have chosen to use a different word in one of the two scriptures in order to avoid the resulting logical contradiction that now appears in English—that is, the translator made an error. If no translation error occurred, then an error of fact exists in at least one of the two scriptures. Appeals to "context" are irrelevant in cases like this where simple declarative statements are involved such as "no one has seen God" and "I have seen God." Simply put, no "context" makes a contradiction or a false statement, like 2 = 3, true.

[Assad]

If one is prepared to allow for the possibility of translator or transcriber errors, then the claim of Biblical inerrancy is completely undermined since no originals exist to serve as a benchmark against which to identify the errors. Left only with our error-prone copies of the originals, the claim of infallibility becomes completely vacuous. Pandora's Box would truly be open: You could have the Bible say whatever you want it to say by simply claiming that words to the contrary are the result of copying or translation/interpretation errors, and nothing could prove you wrong.


Let's look at several more of these context-independent contradictions and errors of fact.¹


<table class="tableFigure" border="1" width="450"><tbody><tr><td width="225">2 Kings 8:26 says "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."</td> <td width="100%">2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2 Samuel 6:23 says "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death"</td> <td>2 Samuel 21:8 says "But the king took...the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul"</td></tr></tbody></table>


<table class="tableFigure" border="1" width="450"><tbody><tr><td>2 Samuel 8:3-4 says "David smote also Hadadezer...and took from him...seven hundred horsemen..."</td> <td>1 Chronicles 18:3-4 says "David smote Hadarezer...and took from him...seven thousand horsemen..."</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1 Kings 4:26 says "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots..."</td> <td>2 Chronicles 9:25 says "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots..."</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2 Kings 25:8 says "And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month...Nebuzaradan...came...unto Jerusalem"</td> <td>Jeremiah 52:12 says "...in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month...came Nebuzaradan...into Jerusalem"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1 Samuel 31:4-6 says "...Saul took a sword and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead and...died with him. So Saul died..."</td> <td>2 Samuel 21:12 says "...the Philistines had slain Saul in Gilboa."</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Gen 2:17 says "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thou eastest thereof thou shalt surely die [note: it doesn't say 'spiritual' death]</td> <td>Gen 5:5 says "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Matt 1:16 says, "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus..."</td> <td>Luke 3:23 says "And Jesus...the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>James 1:13 says "..for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."</td> <td>Gen 22:1 says "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..."</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Gen 6:20 says "Of fowls after their kind and of cattle [etc.]...two of every sort shall come unto thee..."</td> <td>Gen 7:2,3 says "Of every clean beast thou shall take to thee by sevens...Of fowls also of the air by sevens..."</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."</td> <td>John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Gen 32:30 states "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."</td> <td>John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time..."</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Factual Errors



<table class="tableFigure" border="1" width="450"><tbody><tr> <td width="250">1 Kings 7:23 "He made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."</td> <td width="250">Circumference = Pi() x Diameter, which means the line would have to have been over 31 cubits. In order for this to be rounding, it would have had to overstate the amount to ensure that the line did "compass it round about."</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Lev 11:20-21: "All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you."</td> <td>Fowl do not go upon all four.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Lev 11:6: "And the hare, because he cheweth the cud..."</td> <td>Hare do not chew the cud.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Deut 14:7: " "...as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof."</td> <td>For the hare this is wrong on both counts: Hare don’t chew the cud and they do divide the "hoof."</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Jonah 1:17 says, "...Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights"</td> <td>Matt 12:40 says "...Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly..." whales and fish are not related</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Matt 13:31-32: " "the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed which…is the least of all seeds, but when it is grown is the greatest among herbs and becometh a tree."</td> <td>There are 2 significant errors here: first, there are many smaller seeds, like the orchid seed; and second, mustard plants don't grow into trees.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Matt 4:8: " Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them."</td> <td>Unless the world is flat, altitude simply will not help you see all the kingdoms of the earth.</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Assad]

WARNING : @ SILVERLJ --- If I see in any other thread the same topic i.e. Corruption of bible from you than It will be deleted. You are repeating same responses in various threads. So limit all discussions related to Bible corruptions and Why God book contains error here only. You can open new threads for other topics If you wish.

Thank you

Administrator

[Assad]

So.. you say that bible does not contain differing accounts? If so than It means that the bibical god has got serious contradictions in his mind, as thats the only conclusion left If we are to assume that bible does not have any differing accounts.

Have a look:

God tempts no one.


James 1:13- Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God does tempt!

Genesis 22:1- And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

And why would Jesus ask this, if God tempts no one?

Matthew 6:13- And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Acid

WARNING : @ SILVERLJ --- If I see in any other thread the same topic i.e. Corruption of bible from you than It will be deleted. You are repeating same responses in various threads. So limit all discussions related to Bible corruptions and Why God book contains error here only. You can open new threads for other topics If you wish.

Thank you

Administrator

Thank you for your warning but if I repeat things its because they are relevant as far as I can see not because I want to annoy you or anyone else. .

[Assad]

Well, read your posts again and everytime you come up to same posts and without it being relevant to the thread. Anyways, I am sure that you would be careful next time.

Thanks for the understanding.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Acid

So.. you say that bible does not contain differing accounts? If so than It means that the bibical god has got serious contradictions in his mind, as thats the only conclusion left If we are to assume that bible does not have any differing accounts.

Have a look: God tempts no one.

James 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man

God does tempt!
Genesis 22:1 - And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

And why would Jesus ask this, if God tempts no one?

Matthew 6:13 - And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Sadly, as is usual with you, you are not interested in finding what is true and correct only caring to push endlessly the same line that the Bible is unreliable – I suggest you look up the word tendentious and find out what it means. Here for example where you have clearly not done your homework and totally ignored any context (does that sound a familiar refrain to you?) Using the KJV and the meaning of the Greek words can be found in Vines Dictionary of Expository words for the NT quotes and Jameson, Fausett an Brown commentary for the OT reference.

James chapter 1 the Greek word use in the manuscripts is Peirazo which mean to try, assay, prove it does not mean the same as tempting to do evil as you seem to think. So the chapter is largely about trials that God permits us to go through and James is saying that being tempted to do evil is not a trail and it is not done by God.

In Matthew Chapter 6 the Greek word is Peirasmos means trails with a beneficial purpose and here Jesus is saying pray not to be led into such trials by forces beyond your own control.

In Genesis Chapter 22 we have the story of Abraham being tested by God with regard to Isaacs.

So there are no contradictions here, at least only the ones you have invented or copied from somewhere else.

[Assad]

Again you have first resorted to acting as If I am taking things out of context while in your post which is SUPPOSED to provide some answers to these contradictions. You provided no context at all. This is absolutely hillarious.

Let me tell you what context means:

1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.

And now look at your post and see that you have provided NO CONTEXT, It's just another lie.

You have only tried to provide meanings to words by twisting things and more importantly without any references. Well thats what Christians often do when they just want to write anything , isnt? anyway..

Before I tell you the usage about hte word Peirazo, I want to make it clear that the meaning of it makes NO DIFFERENCE. There is a clear contradiction as was stated originally in my post. What you does doesnt makes a shread of sense. I anyone put the twisted meanings you quoted than the entire verse would even then say the same thing.

2. to try whether a thing can be done
   1. to attempt, endeavour
3. to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
   1. in a good sense
   2. in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments
   3. to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin
      1. to solicit to sin, to tempt 1c
   4. of the temptations of the devil
   5. after the OT usage
      1. of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith
      2. men are said to tempt God by exhibitions of distrust, as though they wished to try whether he is not justly distrusted
      3. by impious or wicked conduct to test God's justice and patience, and to challenge him, as it were to give proof of his perfections.

So we can clearly see the OT usage and in CONTEXT of OT what It means. There is no way to twist things Alex.

From Christians own Bible and scholars:

The KJV Strong's Version - 2 Verses<dl><dt>Jas 1:13 - </dt><dd>Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: </dd><dt>

Source

</dt></dl>I remind you what Bacon has said:

"The human understanding is not composed of dry light, but it is subject to influence from the will and the emotions, a fact that creates fanciful knowledge; man prefers to believe what he wants to be true."


Again we clearly see that your deliberate twisting and ignorance of your facts.

Regards

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Acid

If one is prepared to allow for the possibility of translator or transcriber errors, then the claim of Biblical inerrancy is completely undermined since no originals exist to serve as a benchmark against which to identify the errors. Left only with our error-prone copies of the originals, the claim of infallibility becomes completely vacuous. Pandora's Box would truly be open: You could have the Bible say whatever you want it to say by simply claiming that words to the contrary are the result of copying or translation/interpretation errors, and nothing could prove you wrong.

Let's look at several more of these context-independent contradictions and errors of fact.

I have not copied the whole of Acid's post but would point out it is 100% plagiarised from Freethought Debater and I can see no reference to that site and this is yet again an example of Acid abusing what he often demands as best practice from those who don't agree with him.

In none of the cases listed do we see any sign of a real context and if we look at the first one in the list copied by Acid (but I will use then NIV translation)

22. The capitals on top were in the shape of lilies. And so the work on the pillars was completed.

23. He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

So this can simply be understood to be circular is shape and it may have been bent inwards, there may have been a lip, the cubit measure might not be all that exact and so on - there are dozens of simple and rational ways to make sense of this without ending up with the conclusion the Bible is of no value

Clearly the author of this posting is committing plagiarism which means using another authors work as if it is his own with intent to deceive, he has added no comments of his own and sadly one must assume he knows nothing about this subject. This is not the way to use a serious discussion board.