> Why God's Book Cannot Contain Error

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Acid

First you have made a wrong reference here from the Quran, It shows the verse no. to be 5:77 while it is 5:73.

Comment by Silver - I must bow to your greater knowledge but as you know the numbering in different translations does vary. (I used Rodwell's version)

Coming to the verse: (Yusuf Ali translation)

73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (Yusuf Ali Translation)

This does not prove anything. It simply proves that Quran reject Trinity and when the translation which you quote has got nothing to do with misunderstanding, after all in trinity all three guys are ghost. While one sits in heaven, the other suffers with crucifixion and the third hovers around watching all this stuff.

Comment by Silver - I was not if you read what I said trying to prove anything but only show that as far as Unity of God is concern the Qu'ran and the Bible agree.

As for Deut 6:4, Yes God is one but If you ask any Christian, he will go against Jesus words that and upon asking his reply would be "our God is triune". Jesus never said that God is triune, here have a look at Deut 6:4:

Comment by Silver - I know of no Christian I have ever met who thinks that saying we have a triune God means we have three Gods as you seem to imply. My comment was that Jesus in His words confirmed those of Moses. Why is it that often in the Qu'ran God speaks in the singular (eg the first surah revealed to Mohamed) and elsewhere in the plural? You will no doubt argue that it is a royal 'we' but if as you say the Qu'ran is from God nothing in it can be unmeaning. Indeed we find instance of this in Gen 1:26 and 3:22.

Like most doctrines one cannot find them in just one verse or from the mouth of one prophet. But if you wish to consider it read John 1:1-3 (King James Version). 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

2 Corinthians 13:14 (Amplified Bible). 14. The grace (favor and spiritual blessing) of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the presence and fellowship (the communion and sharing together, and participation) in the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen (so be it).

That is just two sample that show the trinity and the words I quoted for Moses and Jesus the oneness. I cannot explain how this works, no one can but it's there in scripture all the same.

No Prophet before Jesus taught trinity and the message was simple " There is no God but only one God" - which is the message of Quran. Clearly trinity is a latter injection in bible after Jesus acension. these hearsy were incorporated into Christian scripture and later voted upon in council of nicea.

Comment by Silver - I have shown some evidence and can do no more here and if you choose to dismiss it without going to the Bible for study then so be it. It is not an injection as it can be found throughout the Bible and you are making an assertion without having actually studied the Bible or asking Christians what they believe.

With regard to Nicea most agree it took place about 325 AD by order of Emperor Constantine who presided over a group of bishops and leaders with the purpose of defining the true God for all of Christianity and eliminating all doctrinal the confusion, controversy, etc. and the Council affirmed the deity of Jesus Christ and established an official definition of the Trinity—the deity of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit under one Godhead, in three co-equal and co-eternal Persons.

So the idea of the trinity and the deity of Jesus was not invented there and inserted into Bibles, that is an absurd idea and to say it was is simply ignorance of basic facts. It was fully discussed there and affirmed it was in the Bible. Indeed this is not unlike the problem Uthman faced when compiling the Qu'ran who had to decide what to include and what not and to do it he gathered what we might call a council around him.

Allah is the greatest.

Peace be with you

[bordi]

Athanasian Creed

[Assad]

Comment by Silver - I know of no Christian I have ever met who thinks that saying we have a triune God means we have three Gods as you seem to imply. My comment was that Jesus in His words confirmed those of Moses. Why is it that often in the Qu'ran God speaks in the singular (eg the first surah revealed to Mohamed) and elsewhere in the plural? You will no doubt argue that it is a royal 'we' but if as you say the Qu'ran is from God nothing in it can be unmeaning. Indeed we find instance of this in Gen 1:26 and 3:22.

Like most doctrines one cannot find them in just one verse or from the mouth of one prophet. But if you wish to consider it read John 1:1-3 (King James Version). 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

2 Corinthians 13:14 (Amplified Bible). 14. The grace (favor and spiritual blessing) of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the presence and fellowship (the communion and sharing together, and participation) in the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen (so be it).

Before deducing what I imply and explicate in my posts, you should first read what I write. All Christians who would say that God is triune is not saying like Jesus said in Bible that " God is One". This is an explicit difference and there is no need to imply anything here.
As for the Royal "We" in Quran, even in Bible at place the royal "We" is included but the Christians "imply" it as as a trinity doctrine. In Quran ofcourse , we find the wisdom of God, and I believe that the reason at places "we" has been used is to show His Highness and His Greatness. This does not mean that I should start thinking that God is 3 or 4 or 5 yet 1.

Onething it is proved by your posts is that trinity is only "implied by Christians" in the bible and is not explicit anywhere in Bible in the word of Jesus.

Comment by Silver - I have shown some evidence and can do no more here and if you choose to dismiss it without going to the Bible for study then so be it. It is not an injection as it can be found throughout the Bible and you are making an assertion without having actually studied the Bible or asking Christians what they believe.

There is no evidence so far Silver, I chose to dismiss the supposedly existing evidence because it is non-existent.If its in the Bible than show it. You say that its found throughout the Bible yet you havent provided a shred of evidence? And I believe I am speaking to a Christian here and so your assertion that I have not asked/asking Christians is invalid.

[Assad]

Firstly, the <acronym title="New Testament">NT</acronym> testament is confirmed by the many authors involved all sharing the same inspired message and that message carried on from the inspired Old Testament. Secondly, if I come to the Qu'ran there are many problem. The Qu'ran did not exists as a single volume so could hardy be checked easily if at all, Prophet Mohammed could not read so could not check a text anyway, to check it his memory (because you say it was not his words) would have to be perfect, the script was defective because it had no pointing etc.
2 Even then the ONLY one who claims to have heard the very words of God was Mohammed and therefore his message is hearsay. I conclude that your argument is weak.
3 If I use your argument then the prophets biography cannot be trusted because Mohammed was not there to conform and authorise it.

In this post, your ignorance of Islamic scripture or I would say the very basic religious knowledge is evident.

The Quran didnt exist as a single volume during the time of Prophet, you imply this as If during the time of Jesus, the bible was widely circulated in a single volume all over the world.
The Quran literally means "Recitation" and in many posts by bro. Salman he said that what is meant by Quran to be a recitation. I will not repeat the same words just because you didnt read them or If you did, you chose to ignore them.

Quran as a recitation was committed to memory of all the Muslims, Prophet was a living Quran while his companions and the Muslim society as wide memorised these words of God by heart. The Quran was recited during daily prayers, in holy month and lectures (khutbahs) and even as worship as reading Quran is a very holy act.

Apart from this, Prophet appointed an authorised script writer who wrote the Quran verses as soon as they were revelaed and than as you wrongly say out of your ignorance that Prophet was not able to check it as he wasnt able to read or write, Prophet confirmed what he wrote by asking him what he wrote and every year Prophet after revising the Quran with Gabriel, Revised it with all of his companions. So there was a direct authorisation by Prophet himself.

the script was defective because it had no pointing etc.

This is the most funny thing in your post and I literally am laughing while reading this, Thanks for the laugh.

I would let you explain me what you mean by this and I am sure that we will have the answer infront of us.

Even then the ONLY one who claims to have heard the very words of God was Mohammed and therefore his message is hearsay. I conclude that your argument is weak.

Yes ofcourse, as a Prophet he was the only one who heard the words of God. Did only Moses heard the words of God and did only Jesus heard the word of "himself from the heaven" or did the entire public heard what was being revealed? so stop this hearsay game before you fully grasp what you are trying to say.

If I use your argument then the prophets biography cannot be trusted because Mohammed was not there to conform and authorise it

Finally I am happy that you have learned something from my understanding.
We all admit that not everything in prophets biography can be trusted because obviously it was not authorised by Prophet and there were many people who said manything which cannot be trusted. There are some events for example the one of talking donkey and satanic verses which cannot be trusted as there authenticity cannot be verified. Many events were fabricated or some are just simply of weak authenticity. So we do not include and trust everything available in Prophets biography.

And you should use my argument for the bible. Good job! First you accept that bible is only a biography of Jesus written by many people as you said and accepted and so we cannot trust everything included in the bible. It is only a biograpy of Jesus and not any divine inspiration.. as simple as that, but if you insist in "beliving" in all of this biography which is known as Bible than you will end up messing your believes which as already happened. The mess is termed as "trinity".

All Praise be to Allaah.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Acid

Before deducing what I imply and explicate in my posts, you should first read what I write. All Christians who would say that God is triune is not saying like Jesus said in Bible that " God is One". This is an explicit difference and there is no need to imply anything here.
As for the Royal "We" in Quran, even in Bible at place the royal "We" is included but the Christians "imply" it as as a trinity doctrine. In Quran ofcourse , we find the wisdom of God, and I believe that the reason at places "we" has been used is to show His Highness and His Greatness. This does not mean that I should start thinking that God is 3 or 4 or 5 yet 1.

Onething it is proved by your posts is that trinity is only "implied by Christians" in the bible and is not explicit anywhere in Bible in the word of Jesus.

There is no evidence so far Silver, I chose to dismiss the supposedly existing evidence because it is non-existent.If its in the Bible than show it. You say that its found throughout the Bible yet you havent provided a shred of evidence? And I believe I am speaking to a Christian here and so your assertion that I have not asked/asking Christians is invalid.

I gave three references from the Bible and between them they show the oneness of God and the trinity - these three verses with clear referencing, are at least in your terms a 'shred' of evidence. If you choose to ignore these verses and not study them then I can see no reason why you would want to see any more because your mind is already made up and your mind set is to dismiss anything you do not want to consider.

My point about the Qu'ran using singular and plural yet you have failed to show why that should be - why would God say the equivalent of "I" in one place and "we" elsewhere if it means the same thing. You have simply decided the 'we' means something else yet "I" must be taken literally.

Finally, I was not trying to prove anything as that is impossible, its all a matter of faith and belief. whether you are Muslim or Christian.

[Assad]

I gave three references from the Bible and between them they show the oneness of God and the trinity - these three verses with clear referencing, are at least in your terms a 'shred' of evidence. If you choose to ignore these verses and not study them then I can see no reason why you would want to see any more because your mind is already made up and your mind set is to dismiss anything you do not want to consider.

I read your three references from your Bible and to you it shows the oneness of God and the trinity. There is not a "shred" of evidence AGAIN in those verses about trinity, If trinity exists somewhere than its only in your mind.

My point about the Qu'ran using singular and plural yet you have failed to show why that should be - why would God say the equivalent of "I" in one place and "we" elsewhere if it means the same thing. You have simply decided the 'we' means something else yet "I" must be taken literally.

I have already answered the usage of plural and singular in my previous post. Yet as you say to me wrongly, it rightly applies to you that you have made a mindset and chose to dismiss anything which doesnt suit your belief. the usage of I and We does not mean that I should start beliving in trinity.

Finally, I was not trying to prove anything as that is impossible, its all a matter of faith and belief. whether you are Muslim or Christian.

You are right partially and wrong as usually. It is a mater of faith and belief, no doubt but the reason you cannot try to prove anything which seems impossible is because you are trying to prove something which is completely absurd and yet you remain stubborn to it.

I still wait for your replies to my post no 83.

Regards

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Acid

In this post, your ignorance of Islamic scripture or I would say the very basic religious knowledge is evident. The Quran didnt exist as a single volume during the time of Prophet, you imply this as If during the time of Jesus, the bible was widely circulated in a single volume all over the world.

Comment by Silver - I implied NOTHING, I was simply stating the fact that the Qu'ran did not exist as a single written volume at the time of the Prophets death.

The Quran literally means "Recitation" and in many posts by bro. Salman he said that what is meant by Quran to be a recitation. I will not repeat the same words just because you didnt read them or If you did, you chose to ignore them. Quran as a recitation was committed to memory of all the Muslims, Prophet was a living Quran while his companions and the Muslim society as wide memorised these words of God by heart. The Quran was recited during daily prayers, in holy month and lectures (khutbahs) and even as worship as reading Quran is a very holy act.

Apart from this, Prophet appointed an authorised script writer who wrote the Quran verses as soon as they were revelaed and than as you wrongly say out of your ignorance that Prophet was not able to check it as he wasnt able to read or write, Prophet confirmed what he wrote by asking him what he wrote and every year Prophet after revising the Quran with Gabriel, Revised it with all of his companions. So there was a direct authorisation by Prophet himself.

Comment by Silver - I know perfectly well what is meant by Qu'ran - that is not the issue. Even here you say 'revise' and by any common understanding that must include making changes. I am also aware that Muslims believe that Gabriel also acted as a teacher to the Prophet from a tradition narrated by 'A'ishah and Fatimah - Gabriel would present the Qur'an to me once every year.

The trouble with such arguments is that they are based on prior assumptions about the authenticity of the text itself so your arguments always amount to "the Qur'an is free from any interpolations because God says so." You simply have no proof it contains the very words of God.

This is the most funny thing in your post and I literally am laughing while reading this, Thanks for the laugh.

Comment by Silver - why should it make you laugh that the Arabic script was not fully developed in the time of the Prophet and would not be so developed for another 200 years?

Yes ofcourse, as a Prophet he was the only one who heard the words of God. Did only Moses heard the words of God and did only Jesus heard the word of "himself from the heaven" or did the entire public heard what was being revealed? so stop this hearsay game before you fully grasp what you are trying to say.

Comment by Silver - then you agree that the Prophet's revelation was and is hearsay? So your whole faith rests on one man who say God spoke to him without any other witnesses?

Finally I am happy that you have learned something from my understanding. We all admit that not everything in prophets biography can be trusted because obviously it was not authorised by Prophet and there were many people who said many things which cannot be trusted. There are some events for example the one of talking donkey and satanic verses which cannot be trusted as there authenticity cannot be verified. Many events were fabricated or some are just simply of weak authenticity. So we do not include and trust everything available in Prophets biography.

Comment by Silver - by the same token the Qu'ran cannot be trusted because it must be impossible to verify its authenticity by your own arguments. We ONLY have Mohammed's word for it nothing else.

And you should use my argument for the bible. Good job! First you accept that bible is only a biography of Jesus written by many people as you said and accepted and so we cannot trust everything included in the bible. It is only a biograpy of Jesus and not any divine inspiration.. as simple as that, but if you insist in "beliving" in all of this biography which is known as Bible than you will end up messing your believes which as already happened. The mess is termed as "trinity".

Comment by Silver - sadly you make you usual mistake getting muddled by Bible and NT and OT. The NT gives us in the 4 Gospels the teachings of Jesus and very little that could be called biographical and the NT only cover about 3 years of His life. (Jesus is spoken of in the OT in terms of the work of redemption He would carry out). Those teachings were recorded by his disciples and Christians take those teaching as direct from God and as a way to guide and direct their lives.

I don't know any Christians whose lives have been 'messed up' by the teaching of Jesus and I don't know any who get messed up about the trinity so you are simply letting your prejudice come out in your postings. Go into a church a listen to who they pray to and you will see what I mean.

I am also happy to know that you agree it seems that the Biography of the prophet is not binding on anyone.

All Praise be to Allaah.

Go in Peace to love and serve the Lord

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Acid

I read your three references from your Bible and to you it shows the oneness of God and the trinity. There is not a "shred" of evidence AGAIN in those verses about trinity, If trinity exists somewhere than its only in your mind.

Comment by Silver - if you choose not to understand them or simply dismiss them as you do here there is little I or anyone can do and giving you more references would be pointless. Billions of Christian accept the teaching of the oneness of God and the Trinity, scholar have studied it for almost 2,000 years and come to the same conclusion but your response is it is all in the mind. Well if we are working at that level of argument I can categorically say that Islam is totally false its all in your mind.

I have already answered the usage of plural and singular in my previous post. Yet as you say to me wrongly, it rightly applies to you that you have made a mindset and chose to dismiss anything which doesnt suit your belief. the usage of I and We does not mean that I should start beliving in trinity.

Comment by Silver - you may be right, at least I am willing to admit it - are you?

You are right partially and wrong as usually. It is a mater of faith and belief, no doubt but the reason you cannot try to prove anything which seems impossible is because you are trying to prove something which is completely absurd and yet you remain stubborn to it.

Comment by Silver - notice your mindset showing - I am always wrong and you are always right. I have never at any stage said anywhere that I could prove anything. You are the one who is always using the word and claiming you can prove this or that about Islam and all that does is expose the fact that you do not understand what it means to prove something.

I still wait for your replies to my post no 83.

Regards

As far as I know I answered this post yesterday in post 89

[Yanal]

Why dont we all get along?

[Assad]

Comment by Silver - I know perfectly well what is meant by Qu'ran - that is not the issue. Even here you say 'revise' and by any common understanding that must include making changes. I am also aware that Muslims believe that Gabriel also acted as a teacher to the Prophet from a tradition narrated by 'A'ishah and Fatimah - Gabriel would present the Qur'an to me once every year.

Silver, I dont understand If you deliberately talk absurdly or whether this is only unintentional. I hope that this is the latter but past experience tells us that it is indeed the former.

First, I would show you the meaning of the word "revise" from a dictionary:

revise


• verb 1 examine and improve or amend (text). 2 reconsider and alter (an opinion or judgement). 3 Brit. reread work done previously in order to prepare for an examination.
• noun Printing a proof including corrections made in an earlier proof.
— DERIVATIVES reviser noun.
— ORIGIN Latin revisere ‘look at again’.

Source: Oxford Dictionary

When I said that Prophet revised Quran with Angel Gabriel, you deliberately took it as that it included changes. While revised was used to convey that he proof read the Quran with Gabriel , look at it again. This does not mean that there is a need for change as you implied.
Even IF that includes making changes, so what?

Now I have only cleared your misunderstanding here and now we should return to our original topic rather than coming to this secondary one. This discussion was related to the topic that Prophet did authorise the Quran which we have today. (Reference post #94)

Comment by Silver - why should it make you laugh that the Arabic script was not fully developed in the time of the Prophet and would not be so developed for another 200 years?

What is it that Arabic script was not fully developed for another 200 years? It was fully perfected at that time. I bet you have no knowledge of what you are saying. You say that there were "no pointings". I challenge you to those pointings are a part of "fully developed arabic".
For your information only: the pointings were only included for the understanding of Quran recitation for "NON ARAB MUSLIMS" as they had problems to recite the Quran. This has got nothing to do with fully developed of half or semi-half developed arabic.

Comment by Silver - then you agree that the Prophet's revelation was and is hearsay? So your whole faith rests on one man who say God spoke to him without any other witnesses?

I never agreed to this. I only agreed that my faith and belief rests of the faith and beliefs of All Prophets of God. Note that you have not answered that which Prophet preached trinity or which Prophet bought similar beliefs like that found in NT. My faith, bought by Final Prophet of God is the same as the original message of Jesus, Moses , David, and all other Prophets of God. Unlike Christianity which seems to imply beliefs which Jesus never taught. Now that is a hearsay.

Comment by Silver - by the same token the Qu'ran cannot be trusted because it must be impossible to verify its authenticity by your own arguments. We ONLY have Mohammed's word for it nothing else.

We have Prophet Muhammads authorisation and besides this there ar hundreds of Companion who recited entire Quran and many thousands who knew all part of Quran by heart. LIKE BIBLE, Prophets biography cannot be trusted and you have not replied to my entire repy and again only tried to divert the topic:

Originally Posted by Acid

We all admit that not everything in prophets biography can be trusted because obviously it was not authorised by Prophet and there were many people who said manything which cannot be trusted. There are some events for example the one of talking donkey and satanic verses which cannot be trusted as there authenticity cannot be verified. Many events were fabricated or some are just simply of weak authenticity. So we do not include and trust everything available in Prophets biography.

As for your last part, again it seems like its entertaining to you to believe that I muddle up OT and NT and therefore I will let you remain entertained as I have already cleared that part. And As far as how Jesus is spoken of OT in terms of redemption he will make , show me those verses, and even than that wouldnt prove trinity. Redemption from sins is by showing the Right path and exposing the deviated beliefs/lifestyle of Jews and above all that wouldnt prove of TRINITY. Anyway come up with this part in a new thread as that is not relevant to our discussion as that relates to a topic :

Was Jesus predicted in OT ? etc.

Allah is the Greatest.