> Apostasy in Islam

[salman]

^I know who is this shaykh and his background - so there is no need for his bio. However, who is shaykh ahamd kutty in comparison to Salaf and latar giant sunni scholars!? Why don't these mashaykh quote the tafseer of ibn Jarir at-Tabari or ibn Kathir or other well knows mufasreen! for the ayaat they quote? Why do they resort to their own tafseer!?

I do not want this modern fatawa from this Shaykh Yusuf Qardawi crue - quote me from early scholars and make sure that you give me the exact reference.

PS: ya ikhwaan, you got to help me - my blood boils when I see these rubbish fatawas (Muslims distorting the teachings of the Islam) and apologetic/modernist methodology. I do not hate a kuffar's attack on Islam as much I hate distortion of sharee'ah by Muslims; hence, misguiding laypeople and corrupting their fitrah. Is this a good thing or extremism? I try my best to maintain good adab but sometime it is hard to control. make dua'a for me, please

[Qatada]

asalaam alaikum


akhi, since this is a database collection site, we might have right to less tolerance in debate and probably can delete posts which are against the way of the sunnah and salaf.

[salman]

Can someone please translate this, jazak Allah khayran:

قال ابن قدامة رحمه الله: "وقال النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم من بدل دينه فاقتلوه، وأجمع أهل العلم على وجوب قتل المرتد، وروي ذلك عن أبي بكر وعمر وعثمان وعلي ومعاذ وأبي موسى وابن عباس وخالد وغيرهم، ولم ينكر ذلك فكان إجماعا" [المغني (9/16)]

وقال القرطبي رحمه الله: "واختلفوا في المرتدة:
فقال مالك والأوزاعى والشافعى والليث بن سعد: تقتل كما يقتل المرتد سواء، وحجتهم ظاهر الحديث: (من بدل دينه فاقتلوه) و"مَن" يصلح للذكر والأنثى. وقال الثورى وأبو حنيفة وأصحابه: لا تقتل المرتدة، وهو قول بن شبرمة، وإليه ذهب بن علية وهو قول عطاء والحسن، واحتجوا بأن ابن عباس روى عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه قال: (من بدل دينه فاقتلوه)
ثم إن بن عباس لم يقتل المرتدة، ومن روى حديثا كان أعلم بتأويله، وروي عن على مثله، ونهى صلى الله عليه وسلم عن قتل النساء والصبيان. واحتج الأولون بقوله عليه السلام (لا يحل دم امرئ مسلم إلا بإحدى ثلاث كفر بعد إيمان) فعم كل من كفر بعد إيمانه وهو أصح" [تفسير القرطبي (3/48)]

وقال ابن الأمير رحمه الله:"ذهب الجمهور إلى أنها تقتل المرأة المرتدة، لأن كلمة "مَن" هنا تعم الذكر والأنثى، ولأنه أخرج بن المنذر عن بن عباس راوي الحديث أنه قال: تقتل المرأة المرتدة، ولما أخرجه هو والدارقطني، أن أبا بكر رضي الله عنه، قتل امرأة مرتدة في خلافته والصحابة متوافرون ولم ينكرعليه أحد، وهو حديث حسن" [سبل السلام (3/265)]

[Qatada]

asalaam alaikum

قال ابن قدامة رحمه الله: "وقال النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم من بدل دينه فاقتلوه، وأجمع أهل العلم على وجوب قتل المرتد، وروي ذلك عن أبي بكر وعمر وعثمان وعلي ومعاذ وأبي موسى وابن عباس وخالد وغيرهم، ولم ينكر ذلك فكان إجماعا" [المغني (9/16)]

Ibn Qudamah said, "the Prophet peace be upon him said "whoever changes his religion, kill him" and its an ijmaa' [unanimous] from the people of knowledge that its wajib [mandatory] to kill the murtad [apostate]. And that is the view of Abu Bakr, 'Umar, Uthman, 'Ali, Mu'az (ibn Jabal), Abu Musa (al Ash'ari), (Abdullah) ibn Abbas, Khalid (ibn al Walid), and other than them, and none of them rejected [yankur] that, so it was an ijmaa' [unanimous decision]. [Al Mughni 9/16]


Allahu a'lam.

[salamfromrom]

Salam

I think I made a thread about this when I first joined the forum.

My problem with the apostasy view is simply this:

It denies the children born to muslim parents of the choice to accept or reject islam once they become old enough to think for themselves. This is a factor which most scholars seem to have failed to take into consideration.

I have no problem in executing someone who comes and pledges allegiance to the Emir , and then withdraws his support, fully knowing what the penalty for deserting the ummah is.

Salam a leikum

[Qatada]

asalaam alaikum


bro salamfromrom, maybe the issue is about the message and hearing it completely, and still rejecting its truthfulness based on desires [someone only rejects Islam either on ignorance or based on desires].

Since ignorance is removed through Islam, and desires are controlled through Islam - then for this person to have knowledge of Islam, and deny Islam based on desires - he may be a fitnah for the ummah, so he can hide his kufr, or leave the Islamic state and join the non muslims outside the Muslim state, without fear of being killed by the Muslims in that state.

[salman]

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

It denies the children born to muslim parents of the choice to accept or reject islam once they become old enough to think for themselves. This is a factor which most scholars seem to have failed to take into consideration

so what? This is what has been decreed for them and they were raised as Muslims and knew what is Islam. When they leave Islam and deny to come back to it after given time to re-think about their choice, then they are the same as those who were not raised as Muslims, then accepted as Islam but then left Islam. No one is stopping anyone to not make any choice but if they are living in an Islamic state then they should know the consequences of their choice - given that their apostasy becomes apparent.

The Messenger of Allah (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam), the Salaf and rest of the scholars are more knowledgeable than you and rest of the awam who have no knowledge but go around post their fatawas, corrupt distorted understanding of Islam, and showing off their jahliyyat. Do they not know that it is not a place for them to speak and it is better for them to hold their tongue and remain silent!? Why do they not ponder upon this and refer to those who have knowledge!? And the best among the people of knowledge are the Salaf and those who followed their footsteps. Definitely not those who issue modern fatawas, which are alien to 14 centuries Muslim Ummah, while holding onto apologetic methodology. No sane Muslim, who has some hayyah and geerah for his deen, is gonna buy this! I am sorry if I come out harsh but I do not think that I can swallow this baseless rubbish!

The Messenger of Allah (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: : “Whoever of you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand [by taking action against it], and if he cannot, then with his tongue [by speaking out against it], and if he cannot, then with his heart [by feeling that it is wrong], and this is the weakest of faith.” (Reported by Muslim, no. 70)

So as Ustad Abu Tawbah put it, when you see an evil and yet you do not even hate it in your heart, then you GOT NO IMAAN.

I can understand that many people are trapped in this modernist/apologetic garbage fitnah, and may Allah Ta'ala save us all, ameen. But we should know our place and should hold our tongues and remain silent for issues for which we have NO knowledge instead of accusing the people of knowledge of ignorance and deliberate distortion of Islamic teachings.

@Qatada

:) akhee, that was the easiest one - even I could do that :p Jazak Allah khayran though but shouldn't it be (correct if i am wrong - my changes bolded & coloured):

Ibn Qudamah said, "the Prophet peace be upon him said "whoever changes his religion, kill him" andit's an ijmaa' [unanimous] among the people of knowledge that it's wajib [mandatory] to kill the murtad [apostate]. And this has been narrated from Abu Bakr, 'Umar, Uthman, 'Ali, Mu'az (ibn Jabal), Abu Musa (al Ash'ari), (Abdullah) ibn Abbas, Khalid (ibn al Walid), and other than them, and none of them rejected [yankur] that, so it was an ijmaa' [unanimous decision]. [Al Mughni 9/16]

[salamfromrom]

Salam a leikum

so what?

I was under the impression that this whole life is a simple test: To choose and believe in Islam or to disbelieve. This choice obviously implies that the person who is making the choice is able-minded enough to understand the implications of his choice, which is something a child can't do.

This is what has been decreed for them

There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that children born to muslim parents have somehow been denied the choice to accept or reject islam by Allah (SWT). Every human being , regardless of where and to whom he is born has the right to choose or reject islam upon careful consideration (something a child cannot do).

and they were raised as Muslims and knew what is Islam.

No, their parents knew what Islam is, nobody knows what Islam is until they grow up and start thinking freely.

the Salaf and rest of the scholars are more knowledgeable than you and rest of the awam who have no knowledge but go around post their fatawas, corrupt distorted understanding of Islam, and showing off their jahliyyat.

This is deeply disrespectful to me akhee. Do you also use the same language to describe Sheikh Yusuf Estes or even bro Abdul-Fattah who holds the same position? (I'm sorry to be dragging you into this too akhee Abdul-fattah , but I feel I must)




Salam a leikum

[al-boriqee]

I was gonna translate Ibn Qudama's statemebt but Qatada beat me to it. Di you translate that Qatada or did you have someone else?

anyways

وقال القرطبي رحمه الله: "واختلفوا في المرتدة:
فقال مالك والأوزاعى والشافعى والليث بن سعد: تقتل كما يقتل المرتد سواء، وحجتهم ظاهر الحديث: (من بدل دينه فاقتلوه) و"مَن" يصلح للذكر والأنثى. وقال الثورى وأبو حنيفة وأصحابه: لا تقتل المرتدة،


i.e

al-Qurtubee said
"They disputed (differed) concerning the apostate
Maalik, al-Awzaa'ee, Shafi'ee, and Layth Bin S'ad said 'We kill the murtadd as they killed the murtadd the same and this is the obvious proof in the hadeeth "whoever changes his deen, then kill him" and the "man" (the arabic letter meem and nun means whoever) is applicable to whoever, male or female. And (Sufyaan) ath-Thawree and Abu Haneefa and his companions said 'there is no killing for the women'.

i left the rest cuz I have no time to translate the rest

[Qatada]

asalam alykum

I translated the 1st part cuz it was easy, still learning though.

Akh boriqee, if u require translators then sis Ayah, and Amat Allah both know arabic here and translate for us here already.