> Gender Segregation during the Prophet's time

[salman]

wa'alaykum as-salam

@salamfrom



akhee, please pardon me if my response seems harsh

1 - Allah says in the Qur'an that we're obliged to ask people of knowledge if we don't know and not interpret or understand Islam ourselves.

2 - can you please quote me some reputable scholars in favour of your interpretation of this whole issue. I don't want to read views of modernists; quote me early scholars.

3 - please list out what kind of interaction you think should be allowed so that I don't jump to conclusion

4 - what you're doing is a very dangerous matter. Salaf refrained from speaking on matters which they had no knowledge about or they were not sure about. In addition, we are well aware of understanding of scholars on this matter.

5 - You admited that we're not in position to change anything, but imagine if a brother who looks up to you start thinking that your opinion is correct.

6 - I don't want to waste my valuable time on responding to your points which have been addressed before by scholars and specially when you are not in position to state such statements boldly and obliged to ask scholars.

[salamfromrom]

Salam

Which points do you mean bro?

All I know is what is commonly known. Which is that even though the Prophet(pbuh) sternly warned muslims against free mixing, He did not place restrictions on them in the sense they they were punished or prevented from doing so by ''police'' or anyone else. This was left to the discretion of the individual as is clear by all early sources/hadiths on the subject. Do you disagree?

can you please quote me some reputable scholars in favour of your interpretation of this whole issue.

First of all....I'm not interpreting anything, just relating what was the common practice during the Prophet's time. Are hadiths enough?

Some instances during the Prophet(pbuh)'s time and the salaf are as follows:

Furthermore, we read in Islamic history that women Companions used to go around doing their business in the city. The second caliph, `Umar ibn Al-Khattab, appointed a woman, Ash-Shifaa' bint `Abdullah, as the supervisor of markets in Madinah, as is mentioned in her biography.
Also, Muslim women expressed their views on legislative issues of public interest, even standing in opposition to the caliphs, who then accepted the sound arguments of these women. A specific example took place during the caliphate of `Umar ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him).

As for the permissibility of women going to mosques, the Prophet said: "If your women ask permission to go to the mosque at night, allow them" (Al-Bukhari).

He also said: "Do not prevent the maid- servants of Allah from going to the mosques" (Muslim).

Again it was narrated by Ibn Umar that the Prophet said: "Do not prevent women from going to the mosques at night." A boy said to Ibn Umar: "We would never let them go out, that they may not be caught in evil." Ibn Umar reprimanded him and said: "I am saying that the messenger of Allah said this and you say: no, we will not allow it?" (Muslim).

A similar funny situation was that the Prophet asked women not to precede men in lifting their heads from prostration (sujud), as some men at that time were too poor to have clothes to cover themselves properly. Thus, when men made prostration, parts of their bodies became visible. This did not make the Prophet prevent women from praying behind men to solve the problem.

What he did instead, was that he said, "O womenfolk, do not lift your heads till men are raised" (Muslim). What is wonderful about his incident is that he trusted them not to betray.

The Prophet used to encourage women to witness Eid Prayer (the prayer at annual celebrations such as at the end of Ramadan). In fact, this was repetitively mentioned in Hadith. Ibn Abbas said: "The Prophet would take his wives and daughters to the two Eid Prayers" (Ibn Majah and Al-Baihaqi).

He further reported that after the Prophet had prayed and given the prayer's speech, he went to the women and admonished them, reminded them of Allah, and ordered them to give charity" (Al-Bukhari).

Not only did the prophet allow women to go for prayers, but he also encouraged them to go to public religious teaching circles. Some women requested the Prophet to fix a day for them, as men were taking up all his time. On that, he promised them a day for religious lessons and commandments (Al-Bukhari).

In Islamic history, we have Umar ibn Al-Khattab appointing a woman, Shifa bint Abdillah, as the administrator of the market of Madinah which was the main market that existed in those days. (Ibn Hajar, Al-Isabah, vol. 4, p. 333)
Umar also appointed Samra' bint Naheek as a muhtasibah (police officer). She carried a "whip to use in enforcing good and forbidding evil." (At-Tabarani)

I mean the examples from those days go on and on. One just needs to look at the hadith collections to know that during the Prophet(pbuh)'s days men and women were going to marketplaces, and using the same roads for transportation. Nobody prevented them by force, this is common knowledge. Do you disagree?

please list out what kind of interaction you think should be allowed

The exact same which was allowed during The prophet's time. No more no less.

Restrictions might be different now according to some scholars, due to circumstances, but the example of the Prophet(pbuh) still stands.


Sources:

Reading Islam

, http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503546602 & http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar (&hadith)





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Some examples of working women among the salaf:

Busra bint Uzwan (ra) was the sister of Utbah bin Uzwan al-Mazini, the famous companion, the governor of Basra (in Iraq). According to the author, Busra hired Abu Huraira (ra) and he was her employee during the time of the Prophet. Later she married him, after Marwan succeeded him [as administrator] over Madinah. [Al Isaba fi Tamyiz al Sahaba, by Ibn Hajar al Asqalani]

“Those scholars who study the role of women in Islam will notice that throughout the different periods of history, women were actively engaged in every field of endeavour, be it politics, government, or learning. Women were NOT confined, as some have assumed, to mothering and household occupations” [Salah al-Din al-Munajjid]

Nafisa bint al-Hasan (d. 208/824) taught hadith to Imam ash-Shafi'i.
Ibn Hajar mentioned 12 women who were musnida (transmitters of collection of traditions). He studied with 53 women.
Ibn Asakir al-Dimashqi (499-571) took hadith from 1,300 male shaykh and 80-odd female shaykha.

Women Farmers
Sahl ibn Sa'd, a companion of the Prophet mentioned a woman who had her own farm. She used to cultivate beets and barley to feed the companions of the Prophet with it after Friday prayer.
The daughter of Abu Bakr, Asma', mentioned that when she was married to Zubair, they did not have wealth. The Prophet gave them some land about two miles away from their home. She used to farm and transport the produce herself.
Asma' bint Abu Bakr reported, "One day I was coming back with date stones on my head. Then I met the Prophet with some people from Madinah. He asked me to ride with him on his camel's back."
It was apparent that farming was independently done by women. Moreover, they transported farm produce. If they had modern trucks, trains, ships and planes, Asma' and other women would have used them rather than carrying the goods on their heads.

'Umar appointed Shifa bint 'Abdullah ibn Shams as the administrator of the Market of Madinah which was one of the largest markets in those days.
According to 'Allama ibn 'Abd al-Barr, Shifa bint 'Abdullah was a very intelligent and scholarly woman. Umar often took the initiative of asking her opinion to other people.

It is reported that Dawud ibn Husayn, a companion of the Prophet, used to take Qur'anic lessons from Umm Sa'd Jamilah bint As'ad Ansariyyah, daughter of As'ad ibn Rabi who fought in the Battle of Badr and achieved martyrdom in the Battle of Uhud. According to ibn Athir, Umm Sa'd had memorized the Qur'an and used to give regular lessons.

Source: Crescentlife.com

The fact is, as I've said before and will say again, all the evidence suggests, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the ''religious policing'' and restriction on women's freedom which is somewhat prevalent today (for many different reasons) have no precedent in the time of the prophet(pbuh)

I have nothing to proove. The sheer number of hadith on this issue speak for themselves


Salam

[salamfromrom]

Here's what a more knowleadgeable brother (who DISAGREES WITH ME) said on islamicawakening.

You should know, May Allah preserve you, that segeration was implemented at the time of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) while adopting the circumstances at that time. Nevertheless, such segeration was not as commonly misunderstood nowadays. That said, Islamic terms and scholars statements must be understood based on how they are meant in the context of what the scholars refer to and not based on our own understanding. Therefore, personal views and "I think" have no place in religion matters that require knowledge as much it requires wisdom.

Forms of Segeration at the time of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم)

- In the Jam'aa Salaat, women are placed in the back rows as it is proven in authentic known hadeeths.
- Women had their own day where only women come to learn as proven in authentic hadeeth
-Women are commanded to walk on sides of roads and leave the middle for men as proven in the hadeeth with Sanad Jaid.
-Revelation of Hijab

Social Life at the time of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم):

-Women used to go to market to bye and sell normally
-Women would leave their houses alone
- women would go by themselves to seek fatwa
-Women used to run their trade and employ men to run it for them.

As can be noted, the examples are too many and segeration must be understood in the context. However, what was mentioned above is employed in general and not on every case.

If leaving the house would cause Fitna or Harm to the women then she must be prevented from leaving the house i.e. times of wars, fitna times, the road is not safe, the women is not wearing proper Hijaab, there are many men who hassle women in streets and she will be exposed to it and etc. Such exceptions are going along with the general evidences and purposes of the the religion.

On other note, I have noticed there was some criticism to the system of joining the right and disjoin the wrong in KSA. I would say what the Arabs say about such matters : "The people of Mecca know their roads better than anyone else". Alhamdullah, the country is full of great scholars, May Allah preserve them, and people must differniate between what scholasr say and what people actually do based on ignornace and culture.

The sister (someone I was debating with and who disagreed with me) is advocating what is better and safest to do while you(me salamfromrom) are advocating what is permessible to do as long as it is done according to the conditions that are set by Islam.

Anyhow, sisters should remain at home and guard their chasity and focus on what Allah designed them for and honor that nowadays is looked as an insult and I seek with Allah a refuge from such distortion.

On other note, What you have said in this quote is true. However, this is not the case all the time. Please refer to my post above.

Wallahu A'lam

He is a very knowleadgeable brother, and he sure does make a good point and I totally respect that, even if I don't share the same view.

The following was my response if you're interested bro Salman :-)

Salam

my brother Ayman bin Khaled you have given a great explanation of things. Unfortunately, sister murdiyyah doesn't understand what I mean at all. She thinks that because I wish for the exact same social laws as those in force during the time of the Prophet(pbuh) then I must be wrong.

The following hadith is directed at this sister:

So dear sister, the above hadith proves what I was saying. There was no forceful segregation at the time, and the Prophet(pbuh) didn't order it.

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Brother Khalid:

That is Spot on Correct. You have understood exactly on what platform I stand. It really saddens me to be attacked by some people who don't get this and to be told that I am ''Inviting zina''.

To proceed:

Indeed, in times of wars etc her mahram should take good care of her. However , it seems like these days (and yes im using KSA as an example) this ''siege mentality'' is used to curb the freedoms of our sisters. We cannot force half the population to live under constant and neverending ''martial law'' .

And in KSA, if a woman is adamant and wants to go to the mosque no matter what....what should her husband do? Lock her in the house? cage her like an animal? There has to be a limit. Yes, if she gets her husband angry, angels will curse her. That's true....but nowhere does it say (as far as I know) that a husband is allowed to imprison his wife against her will. This is a basic human right of hers and it is guaranteed by Islam. One cannot be made to live in a cage just because the males are threatened that something bad might happen due to the fact that society is full of fitna. How many more hundreds of years must women be curtailed of their islamically guaranteed rights and live under a ''special emergency regime'' because their mahrams don't trust that the outside world is ''pure'' enough for their sisters/wives?

This is all im trying to say. This is the platform I stand on. It is consistent with the salaf and their social rules, and it is inconsistent to what is commonly acceptable today in KSA etc (EVEN THOUGH THEY MIGHT BE RIGHT AND I MIGHT BE TOTALLY WRONG).

Maybe the arabs know best, however, I somewhat doubt this.

Allah(swt) knows best.

I hope this clarifies things for you bro Salman




The Following is an article in www.IslamToday.com by Shaikh Sâmî al-Mâji

The terms “mixing” and “mingling” are used frequently in discussions on the subject of male-female relations in Islam, but these terms were not used at the time the Qur’ân was revealed. For this reason, we cannot find direct references in the Qur’ân and Sunnah that say “free mixing between men and women is unlawful”. However, this does not mean that such conduct is permissible or that Islam has failed to address the matter. Islam has detailed the relationship between men and women in the most precise and exacting terms. It has set down clear guidelines to show men and women how they must conduct themselves with one another. From all of this, there can be no question that Islam prohibits the free mixing of the sexes.

If we look at every verse of the Qur’ân in search of a direct statement prohibiting a child from beating his parents, we will never find it. It is not there. However, the Qur’ân says: “Do not even say to them ‘uff’.” Can any rational person, after hearing this verse, claim that it is permissible for a son to beat up his mother and father?

Likewise, Islam has forbidden a woman from putting on perfume and passing in front of men. It has prohibited her from striking her feet on the ground when she walks to reveal the jingle of her hidden ornaments. Can anyone, after considering these and so many other rulings, assume that women and men are allowed to freely mingle and mix with one another?

The texts of the Qur’ân and Sunnah are limited in number. If we were to abstain from forbidding anything that is not directly stipulated by word in the texts, we would be rejecting the validity of analogous reasoning in Islamic Law. This would leave countless matters of life without an Islamic legal ruling. This would strip Islamic Law of one of its greatest qualities, which is its relevance to all times and circumstances.

It is absolutely clear from the texts that Islam does not allow men and women to meet each other whenever and however they like. It has placed clear regulations and restrictions upon such behavior and has defined the limits of interaction between men and women. Moreover, Islam has closed all doors that lead to temptation and promiscuity.

When we consider all of the laws governing the relationship between men and women in Islam, we are forced to come to the conclusion that Islam forbids any mixing between the sexes that might provide even the remotest possibility of temptation. Scholars of Islam throughout history have fully appreciated this fact. We can see it evidenced in the writings of the great jurists:

Al-Sarakhsî writes: “The judge should try women separately from men since people tend to crowd together in the courtroom. It is quite obvious that the mixing together of men and women under such crowded conditions is conducive to temptation and other distasteful consequences.” [al-Mabsût (16/80)]

Al-Nawawî writes: “Ibn al-Mundhir and others maintain that it is a matter of unanimous agreement that women are not obligated to attend the Jumu`ah prayers. However, his argument that this is because it brings about the mixing of women and men is not correct. The attendance of women at the Jumu`ah prayers does not necessarily bring about such mixing since the women stay behind the men.” [al-Majmû` (4/350)]

Al-Nawawî also writes: “One of the vilest innovations, that some ignorant people today are involved in, is the habit of lighting candles on Mount `Arafah on the ninth night. This behavior is gravely misguided and is full of improper goings-on such as the mixing of men and women.” [al-Majmû`: (8/140)]

In the law book entitled al-Fawâkih al-Dawânî, there is a discussion of when it is permissible to refuse an invitation to a wedding party. It says: “An invitation may be refused if there is any clear wrongdoing at the party, like the mixing of men and women.” [al-Fawâkih al-Dawânî (2/322)]

When scholars warn against the free mixing of men and women, they are not talking about the mere presence of men and women together in the same place. This is something that is definitely not prohibited by Islamic Law. Men and women gathered in the same place at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) in the mosque and in the marketplace. They walked down the same roads and public thoroughfares.

The mere presence of men and women in the same area is not a great cause for temptation. It would be wrong to treat this as unlawful mixing, since the reason for prohibiting free mixing does not exist in such circumstances. If someone were to prohibit men and women from frequenting the same public places under the pretext of preventing temptation, this would be taking matters to an extreme and imposing a restriction that is unduly severe. Such a policy is, moreover, unnatural and would impose great hardships on people’s lives.