> Gender Segregation during the Prophet's time

[salamfromrom]

Salam

Brother abdulrahman said the following in his thread ''Social system of Islam'':

Unlike the licentious liaisons that occur daily in the West, Islam ensures modesty between men & women before they are brought together in the legal union of marriage. So, within the Islamic State, or in the present absence of the State, men and women (unless they are Mahrem i.e. unable to marry each other, reference: An-Nur:31) are forbidden to gather in both the public and the private life, unless Shari'ah (the Islamic Law) has stipulated and permitted otherwise e.g. studies, work, buying and selling and Hajj in the public arena. Therefore, though gathering is permitted in educational establishments, this is specific to being taught and asking help in a subject thus, socializing and/or gathering for entertainment in schools, colleges, universities etc.. is completely forbidden, likewise at work or in the marketplace. Islam both defines the public and private space and governs, like in all affairs of the Muslim, the laws of mixing. Both men and women are obliged to lower their gaze (ref: An-Nur 30-31) and in both the public and private space, a man and a woman are not allowed (it is haram) to be alone in a room with someone who is not Mehrim to them. Muhammad (saw) said: "A woman should not meet and mix with a man alone unless she has a mehram with her." This also applies to the man.

I find the above to be misleading, wrong , and seems to support the ideea of state enforced gender segregation for which I could find no precedent either in the practices of Muhammad(pbuh) or the Righteously Guided Caliphs

What did the Prophet(pbuh) do after the establishment of the Medina Islamic state in terms of gender segregation? Did he segregate the mosque to have separate entrances/areas for males/females?

Did He inform people to never allow women out of the house except with a mahram?

Did He segregate public buildings and designate some public areas as male/female only?

I have not been able to find one shred of proof for the segregation practiced today in certain societies under the name of Islam, even though I tried very hard to find an authentic hadith/ or Noble Ayat which prohibits women from venturing out of their homes or restricts them in any way besides telling them to dress modestly and observe hijab.

The Qur'anic verses which address the interaction of men and women in the social context include:

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity: this will be most conducive to their purity - (and,) verily, God is aware of all that they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms (in public) beyond what may (decently) be apparent thereof; hence let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms.(24:30-31)"

and

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all (other) believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments (when in public): this will be more conducive to their being recognized (as decent women) and not annoyed.(33:59)"

Implicit in these verses is the expectation that men and women will be interacting. Muslims are instructed to do so in such a way as to focus on attributes other than the physical, namely the spiritual and intellectual.

(Wikipedia)

Salam

[salman]

^wa'alaykum as-salam

never mind..

akhee, I've advised you before and let me remind everyone, including myself, again: please refrain from speaking in this manner (without knowledge). What brother has stated is correct and you've got it all wrong.

[salamfromrom]

Salam


I apologise. Let me explain what I meant when I said :

I find the above to be misleading, wrong , and seems to support the ideea of state enforced gender segregation for which I could find no precedent either in the practices of Muhammad(pbuh) or the Righteously Guided Caliphs

I meant to say that Forced segregation is wrong. Ofcourse mixing without a purpose is not allowed, and the person should abstain from that , but the Prophet(pbuh) never enforced this separation with a police force. This was left to the conscrience of the individual.

---------- Post added at 03:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 PM ----------

A sister from islamicawakening provided me with 2 links, which I will analize next. The links are: Islam QA - Evidence Prohibiting of Mixing of Men and Women and Mixed Gatherings: A detailed response regarding gender interaction��

If these procedures and precautions were prescribed and adhered to in a mosque, which is a pure place of worship where people are as far away as they ever are from the arousal of desire and temptation, then no doubt the same procedures need to be followed even more rigorously at other places.

That is an assumption. And stretching it I reckon. The Prophet(pbuh) DID tell people to refrain from needless mixing at the mosque and other places, but that does not mean that we are to make such things illegal (punished by some religious police) because the Prophet(pbuh) never did such a thing. The hadiths from the 2 sites attest to this.

The Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) enforced separation of men and women even at Allaah’s most revered and preferred place, the mosque. This was accomplished via the separation of the women’s rows from the men’s; men were asked to stay in the mosque after completion of the obligatory prayer so that women will have enough time to leave the mosque; and, a special door was assigned to women. Evidence of the foregoing are:

Great, that is good planning , to minimize contact, but The Prophet(pbuh never forbade the women from coming to the mosque or exiting their house without a mahram. There is no proof that he did.

This verse clearly indicates that men and women should not talk unnecessarily and when they do so, the both the content and manner of conversation must be appropriate, and free of anything inciting.

Absolutely, they should not talk unnecesarily. So why do people assume this means they can physically prevent women from their freedom of movement?

Abu Dawood under No. 876 narrates the same hadith in Kitab al-Salaat under the title "Insiraaf an-Nisaa’ Qabl al-Rijaal min al-Salaah" (Departure of Women before Men after the Prayer). Ibn ‘Umar said that Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: "We should leave this door (of the mosque) for women."

This just goes to show how gentlemanly the Prophet(pbuh) was and his attention to the needs of women. This does not encourage in any way, to segregate men and women by force as is done in some parts today in the name of islam.

This is the greatest evidence that the Law of Islam (Shari'ah) forbids meeting and mixing of men and women. The farther the men are from the women’s rows, the better, and vice versa.

Yes, however The Prophet(pbuh) NEVER called for the enforced segregation going on today, that's a fact which these 2 articles are proving.

This Hadith is clear that the companions of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) used to observe separation (hijab) in a way that there use to be a curtain or a veil between the sexes. If free mixing was acceptable, then there was no need for this.

Yes, they used to observe VOLUNTARY SEPARATION. Huge difference from the enforced separation of today.

The Prophet of Allah (Allah have mercy on him) compared male in-laws to death. This means that one should be even more careful with in-laws with regards to interaction as there is greater risk for fitna, especially given the comfortable, social atmosphere in which both parties may lower their guard and forget lowering their gazes.

Again. Voluntary Separation.

3) Imam Muslim narrates from Jarir ibn Abdullah (Allah be pleased with him) who says: ”Iasked Allah's Messenger about the sudden glance on a Non - Mahram. He commanded me that I should turn away my eyes.

This hadith prooves my point exactly. The muslims at the time were allowed freedom of movement, and told to lower their gazes. NOT ENFORCED SEPARATION.

4) Buraida reported that the Messenger of Allah said to Ali [Allah be pleased with him]: “O Ali! don't allow your glance to follow a glance, because the first [glance] is forgiven and not the second. [Narrated by Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud and Imam Ahmad].

Same thing. The Muslims were going about their business in public, males and females alike. No forced separation whatsoever.

The above mentioned [and other] verses of the Qur'an and sayings of the Prophet [Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam] indicate the importance of observing the proper limits of gender interaction.

Absolutely, one should dress modestly and lower their gaze. This proves the impermissibility of ''religious police'' beating women who are alone in public.

b) Men and women who are not immediately related should not talk to each other unnecessarily. When there is a genuine need (such as work or education) to talk, the conversation should be in a modest, restrained manner, and be limited to the extent of the need;

Exactly. Nobody has the right to interfere and restrict this freedom of movement which is enjoined by the shariah.

In the light of the above, we can see that the free intermingling of both the sexes is not allowed.

Exactly. However the crucial aspect is that this is left to the conscience and goodwill of the individual, not the ''religious police'' which has no basis in shariah, and the prophet(pbuh) never called for such a ''spy force''

How is it possible for men and women to meet freely in dinners, tea parties and other social events with looks cast down?. There is not a single instance in the history of early Islam of men and women being allowed to meet each other freely in any social, political or religious gathering.

It is NOT possible, but in order to minimize the fitna, the Prophet(pbuh) told us to avoid direct looks, and avert our gaze. Again, the forced segregation gaining popularity today, has no precedent in the time of Muhammad(pbuh) or the 4 rightly guided caliphs.



That is the point I was trying to make and the above articles proved this beyond any shadow of a doubt. The Prophet(pbuh) told us to lower our gaze, but there's not 1 single hadith in which He forbid us (by forced segregation implemented by a police force) to walk freely in public, or to interact with one another (by using the same public areas, walking in the streets etc) as long as it is in a respectful and dignified manner. In fact, the evidence proves otherwise

[salamfromrom]

And bro SALMAN (sorry I thought you were bro qatada), come on relax, we're just debating here, it's good and fun and we're not in a position to change anything anyways.

If you wish you can share your opinion, whichever that may be, and if you don't you don't. It's all good, I still love ya! :P

[salamfromrom]

Men & Women: Is Interaction a Crime?

As-salamu alaikum.
As I am studying in a co-education system, will it be wrong on my part if I interact with my female friends?
**********************************
There is no single rule that govern interaction between males and females in the Islamic sense. This is an area that is a function of the situation and the nature of this interaction.

There is a newly-coined term that is quite popular these days, which is 'ikhtilat' (or 'mixing', i.e., of men and women). We all heard in the news the lashing of some people in some Muslim country for the crime of 'mixing', which is strange.

In the Islamic sources and scripts, there is nothing called 'ikhtilat'. The root of the word 'ikhtilat' is never used in this context in the Islamic sources.

It is usually used for 'ikhtilat al-'aql' (losing one's mind), 'ikhtilat al-mal' (trade partnership), and other meanings. But ikhtilat, which is the opposite of 'segregation' is not in the traditional Islamic language itself.

Interaction in the Quran

The Quran is full of incidences where men and women 'mix' and 'interact' in various ways. The following are a few examples:

*{And so she (Moses' mother) said to his sister, "Follow him" - and (the girl) watched him from afar, while they (who had taken him in) were not aware of it. Now from the very beginning We caused him to refuse the breast of (Egyptian) nurses; and (when his sister came to know this,) she said: "Shall I guide you to a family that might rear him for you, and look after him with good will?"}* (Al-Qasas 28:11-12)

*{Now when he (Moses) arrived at the wells of Madyan, he found there a large group of men who were watering (their herds and flocks); and at some distance from them he came upon two women who were keeping back their flock. He asked (them): "What is the matter with you?" They answered: "We cannot water (our animals) until the herdsmen drive (theirs) home - for (we are weak and) our father is a very old man." So he watered (their flock) for them: and when he withdrew into the shade and prayed: "O my Sus*tainer! Verily, in dire need am I of any good which Thou mayest bestow upon me!"}* (Al-Qasas 28:23-24)

*{She (the Queen of Sheba) added: "O you nobles! Give me your opinion on the problem with which I am now faced; I would never make a (weighty) decision unless you are present with me."}* (An-Naml 27:32)

Interaction in the Sunnah

In fact, 'mixing' and 'interaction' happened everywhere during the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him): in the mosque, in the street, in the market, and everywhere.

The idea of segregation of sexes was simply not there. I will site a few hadiths below (out of thousands of similar narrations that you find in any hadith collection.) in order to make this point, without even needing to comment on them.

A female Companion, Qaylah Al-Anmariyyah, once approached the Prophet and said: "O Messenger of Allah! I am a woman who buys and sells." And then she asked about bargaining. (Ibn al-Atheer, Usd al-Ghabah, vol. 5, p. 535)

Another Companion, Anas, narrated the following story about the day of the Battle of Uhud: I saw Aishah, the daughter of Abu Bakr, and Umm Sulaim rolling up their dresses, and I saw their leg-bangles, while they were carrying water skins on their back and emptying them in the mouths of the wounded. They would return to refill them and again empty them in the mouths of the wounded. (Al-Bukhari)

Sahl ibn Sad said Abu Usaid As-Saidi came and invited Allah's Messenger on the occasion of his wedding. His wife, who was the bride, was serving them. Sahl said, "Do you know what drink she prepared for Allah's Messenger? She had soaked some dates in water in a bowl overnight." (Al-Bukhari)

The Prophet is reported to have said: "Don't stop women from going to mosques at night". A son of Abdullah ibn Umar, on hearing this statement, said to his father: "We would not allow women to go out of the house at night for fear of any abuse." Ibn Umar reprimanded his son: "I say the Prophet (peace he upon him) said so, and you still say you won't allow it?" (Muslim)

Abu Hurairah reported: "The Prophet had just finished his prayer with us, when he directly turned and asked us to keep sitting, and then asked: 'Is there amongst you any who would shut doors and draw curtains when he approaches his wife, but would later go out and tell everybody how he did so and so?' All men present kept silent. Then the Prophet turned to the ladies and said: "Does any one of you openly discuss her conjugal matters with other women?" A young lady in the audience, when she heard this, knelt up on one knee and craned her neck so that the Prophet might see her and hear her speak. She said: 'Yes by God, all men discuss these matters among themselves and so do all women, too'. The Prophet said: 'Do you know whom does one doing that compare to?' 'Indeed it is like a satanic couple who meet on a high street and indulge their sexual desire in full view of the people'". (Ahmad)

Jabir ibn Abdullah once related the following story: "Some Ansari married some relation of Aishah, so Aishah led the bridal procession. Then the Prophet said, 'Have you presented your bride?' She said, 'Yes'. He said: 'Have you sent her off with singing? For the Ansar love singing'. She said, 'No.' The Prophet said: 'You should have sent for Zainab (a woman who used to sing in Madinah).'" (Ibn Hajar, Al-Isabah, vol.8)
In Islamic history, we have Umar ibn Al-Khattab appointing a woman, Shifa bint Abdillah, as the administrator of the market of Madinah which was the main market that existed in those days. (Ibn Hajar, Al-Isabah, vol. 4, p. 333)
Umar also appointed Samra' bint Naheek as a muhtasibah (police officer). She carried a "whip to use in enforcing good and forbidding evil." (At-Tabarani)

A Decent Atmosphere

Having said that, one should know that this natural interaction has to be within a pure and decent atmosphere of politeness. 'Lustful interaction', even only by way of looking or talking, is unacceptable in the Islamic code of morals.

*{Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity: this will be most con*ducive to their purity – (and,) verily, God is aware of all that they do.

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms (in public) beyond what may (decently) be apparent thereof.}* (An-Nur 24:30-31)

This verse, as well as many of the specific rulings that scholars stipulate in men-women interaction, is meant to cut the roots of adultery which is a major sin in Islam.

I hope this answers your question. Please keep in touch.

Salam.

Source: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...AskAboutIslamE

I am not a crazy man brothers. This type of ''preventive measure'' was never ever practiced in the time of the Prophet(pbuh)

[Qatada]

:


bro salam, certain rules can be applied to restrict something for the society for a greater purpose. For example, its the norms in the culture of saudi arabia for people of the same gender to kiss each others cheeks when greeting each other. However, the scholars forbid this if there will be any fitnah [temptation] that could come out of the matter.


So the norms in a certain society will influence some things, even if they were permissible at the time of Allah's Messenger. To avoid the path to a greater evil.


Allah knows best.

[salamfromrom]

Salam

bro salam, certain rules can be applied to restrict something for the society for a greater purpose. For example, its the norms in the culture of saudi arabia for people of the same gender to kiss each others cheeks when greeting each other. However, the scholars forbid this if there will be any fitnah [temptation] that could come out of the matter.


So the norms in a certain society will influence some things, even if they were permissible at the time of Allah's Messenger. To avoid the path to a greater evil.

May Allah(swt) Preserve You Brother.

Surely this is a valid point. The sisters and brothers I was discussing this with on IslamicAwakening basically said the same thing. They said that even though this sort of stuff wsn't practiced back then, it is because the muslims of the time were more islamic and nowadays people are less islamic. That certainly is the case. However we should also keep in mind that even back then, the people did have the same lusts, and the shariah undoubtedly kept this in mind, when the Prophet(pbuh) implemented the social rules and regulations at the time. Maybe this issue is flexible, and different ruling can apply to different times/circumstances, but the way in which this is done today, women being sometimes imprisoned in their homes, all with the Stamp of Approval from the Ulema, under the guise of Sunnah Actions of the Prophet(pbuh) are misleading and wrong.

We should keep in mind that this type of behavious was far from the rule during the Prophet(pbuh)'s time, and the people back then , many of them were backward aswell (im talking about the fact that many muslims apostasised after Muhammad(PBUH) Died). Even though many people were hypocrites back then, the ruling remained the same, There's no proof that the muslims during Muhammad(pbuh)'s time would lower their gaze, but He told them to try their best and lower it and put their faith in Allah(swt). it's highly likely they (hypocrites) would have looked at other non mahrams, yet he did not enforce this with police and did not even hint that this should be done.

I'm sorry if I sound hot tempered, but I am not that eloquent unfortunately, and I get frustrated because I cannot explain myself properly, and this frustration is apparent in my writing.

Salam

[Qatada]

wasalam alaikum


ameen bro :)


remember that although there were some hypocrites, the generation of the sahabah was the best generation according to the Prophets hadith that the best generation is his generation, then the one after them, then the one who follows them [the 3 best generations.]

So there was piety amongst them, and they were the rulers of the world with a greater influence.


today us muslims have a defeatist attitude, our women are more influenced to feel that they are inferior because of what they see in the media of other women. so some go out with makeup on to feel abit confident about themselves, and our muslim males see the non muslim women so beautified and tend to stare at the women, desiring something beautiful due to our mind being influenced by the media.

so due to that, we see that alot of people contradict the teachings of islam in many aspects - even the best of us, to the extent that if we go to the mosques, we will naturally stare at people of the opposite gender, even though that is the best of places.


So certain scholars will forbid - while knowing the state of the ummah today to do a counter balance. They do it for a greater good, although we may percieve it as something negative - they may know that there is a greater good through it. We don't necessarily criticize them, even if we disagree, sine they are fulfilling their role of forbidding evil and enjoining good.

Situations keep changing, and since the scholars have to keep the society safe from evil - they may differ according to the circumstances. Allah knows best how much they want a good society. It may be that they believe the best solution is to call people back to pure islam and restrict fitnah, when the fitnah is less - they might become abit more relaxed.


Allah knows best.

[salamfromrom]

Salam

Very well explained bro. Maybe you're right. Allah(swt) knows best.

Would you mind if I quote your last post on islamicawakening ? :P


*****************

By the way this is something that's not really part of the discussion, but I've read about it on islamicawakening aswell and it has reinforced some suspisions Ive had about homosexuality.

As we know, being too liberal or too restrictive can both have negative consequences. We see a lot of increased homosexuality in overly-liberal places like Holland, Las Vegas etc. But one can see equal amounts in extreemely conservative places, as is the case with KSA/Conservative American States. Maybe ideally we should strike a balance, and on this issue, maybe the balance is exactly what the prophet(pbuh) did in his time. I don't know for sure offcourse, but total freedom (as in some parts of the west) and total gender separation (as in KSA etc) seem to both lead to the same type of destruction, only through different channels. I don't know, this is only a thought, Allah(swt) knows best



Salam

[Qatada]

:


If you want to, you can insha Allah.


About homosexuality, there's a discussion going on here if you're interested about its moral implications;

Confusions concerning Adultery and other stuff - Multaqa Ahl al-Hadeeth


But in regard to your question about homosexuality in conservative places, i understand which perspective you're coming from, but its due to the extreme dislike of the practise that its a taboo to even discuss it within them places. So someone who even plans on practising it will have to take an extremely big risk to discuss it with someone else before reaching the level of practising it. Islam purposelly does this to acts of sins, because if a sin is frowned upon by society, people will fear to go ahead with it out of rejection from society.

So Islam restricts homosexuality by making it a taboo topic, it then further emphasises on marriage in a halal way to ensure that a person can relieve their sexual feelings without having to resort to other evils.


Looking at other women but not doing anything to them infact increases ones desire for sex with them, simply because he 'cant have her' (humans by nature want to get what entices them). Think about it, would someone be more hungrier if they saw a cloth on top of some food [without knowing whats under the cloth], or would someone be more hungry and desire the food if it was half uncovered, enticing them to approach it?



Allah knows best.