> Refuting Book: Inside Islam

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by salman

the point is not what you cite but the point is that your opinion shouldn't be distorting what the citation is actually saying. anyone can cite anything and offer an opinion but we need to determine whether his opinion is worth anything.

If we can put Spenser aside for the moment and discuss your point above. Obviously I agree with you in principle that one should not distort what any author has said (including Spencer). The problem of course is that it is not always easy to know what the author actually meant. There are two cases to consider, for example, take the Medina massacre of 600 Jews, we can read various accounts - for example Ibn Ishaq's. Now it is perfectly possible to find a justification for this event and it is perfectly possible to see it as unjust from the same sources - there is no single 'correct' interpretation.

The above was an historical event but suppose I quote the Quran, I am not a believer but I can read it, set it in it's context and come to an interpretation and suggest an application in my life (or yours). You might not agree with it but if I am an honest scholar then that to me seems a valid interpretation - I would subscribe to the notion that each Quranic verse has a single meaning and many applications but I would not subscribe to the notion that there is only one authority can say what the meaning is although we might come to agreement over meaning.

I also cannot accept that everything has to be taken literally because when you do that you end up with absurdities.

[Assad]

You can read it and as already discussed and agreed that you can come up to different interpretations which may not reflect the reality. For the killing of 600 Jews or Jew massacre for you, you dont need to interpret it in your own way when there is already an interpretation which exists for that historical event. And we all know that Jews were the evillest and terrible people in that time and even today they mostly are ( This is not our point for this anyway) but the fact needs to addressed that those people were the criminals of highest leve and therefore deserved this punishment.

So dont try to make your own interpretations while we already have interpretations which are more credible and authentic. I know that you know Ibn Ishaq, I appreciate it but you need to read much more than the words "600 Jew massacre" ! The same Ibn Ishaq quoted many reason for this punishment for these Jews devils.

Best Regards

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Acid

You can read it and as already discussed and agreed that you can come up to different interpretations which may not reflect the reality. For the killing of 600 Jews or Jew massacre for you, you dont need to interpret it in your own way when there is already an interpretation which exists for that historical event. And we all know that Jews were the evillest and terrible people in that time and even today they mostly are ( This is not our point for this anyway) but the fact needs to addressed that those people were the criminals of highest leve and therefore deserved this punishment.

So dont try to make your own interpretations while we already have interpretations which are more credible and authentic. I know that you know Ibn Ishaq, I appreciate it but you need to read much more than the words "600 Jew massacre" ! The same Ibn Ishaq quoted many reason for this punishment for these Jews devils. Best Regards

Thank you for your response but I guess this is where we might part company - you feel it was justified and I feel it to be a stain on Islam. I perfectly understand that you (or me) can come to an understanding either by reason or in your case tradition that we for whatever reason find acceptable. However, it is not reasonable nor based on any reading of the facts to say as you imply all Jews were evil. As far as we know the 3 Jewish tribes involved had lived in or near Medina for centuries and there are a number of tradition of Jews converting.

I can see that the Medina Massacre is uncomfortable to Muslims in much the same way as Christians or Jews feel very uncomfortable with various Massacres reported in the Bible and its always possible to find a reason or excuse for them to make us feel better about our faith but to me that is abdication not seeking after truth.

I think perhaps this is what distinguishes Muslims from non-Mulsims in that you always appeal to traditions for an answer where we (in a general sense) will look at traditions but also use reason and argument.

[Assad]

Thank you for your reply.

I think you also have figured out about some differences between Muslims and Non-Muslims way of thinking but how I see this or how the reality is that we Muslims try to find logic, use reason and argument and also the traditions and not just relay on reason and logic because that would constitute as an incomplete information which is more deadly than to have no information.

I have provided you reason of the killing of the Jews in Madina but on otherhand the only thing which I get from you is that "It just doesnt seem good" but no reason so far. You say that there is no reason to imply that all Jews were evil but than the burden of proof is on you and not on me! Why do you think that all Jews were not evil while we have many reports of the Jewish "society" committing crimes on Muslim society which I mentioned in my previous post. This is as much fact as is the fact that Jewish tribes were living in Madina since a long time but this doesnt entitle them to do whatever they want. History also records that they were the people who fought the most and created mischief everywhere they went.

I have every reason to point of that Jews were evil, there is not a single record in history that any single Jew ever stood up for peace and those who stood up, became Muslims.

Here is only few record of the evil of Jews:

"Seeing that Allâh sided with the believers and granted them a manifest victory and perceiving the Muslims’ awesome presence in Madinah, the Jews could no longer contain themselves or conceal indignation. They started a series of provocative and harmful deeds publicly. The most wicked amongst them were the tribe of Banu Qainuqa‘, who lived in quarters within Madinah named after them. As for jobs, they took up goldsmithery, blacksmithing and crafts of making household instruments, that is why war weaponry was available in large quantities in their houses."

"their behaviour grew too impolite and unbearable. They started a process of trouble-making, jeering at the Muslims, hurting those who frequented their bazaars, and even intimidating their women. Such things began to aggravate the general situation, so the Prophet [pbuh] gathered them in assemblage, admonished and called them to be rational, sensible and guided and cautioned against further transgression. Nevertheless they remained obdurate and paid no heed to his warning, and said: "Don’t be deluded on account of defeating some Quraishites inexperienced in the art of war. If you were to engage us in fight, you will realize that we are genuine war experts."

The Jews, went too far in their transgression, presumptuous behaviour and licentious practices. One day a Jewish goldsmith provoked a Muslim woman whose genitals become uncovered when he had tied the edge of the garment to her back. A Muslim man happened to be there and killed the man; the Jews retaliated by killing that Muslim. The man’s family called the Muslims for help and war started.[Ibn Hisham 2/47,48]

- The Sealed Nectar, page 214-215

It would do unjustice to the true picture of Jews of that time, If we say that this is all which they did, as earlier said that they were the greatest evil of the time.

In all this we dont see any peace movement from the Jews whatsoever.They were proud, arrogant and rude since the pre-Islamic era. So your point that not all were evil is totally baseless having no foundation on reality.

Also, During that time in Arabia, the culture of tribal sovereignty was such that even If a single person took a decision which opposed that taken by the leader of the tribe, the tribe would have to consider it, but we have not seen any such harmonious attempts by any member of the Jewish community. They all opposed and were rebellious.

But you only want to think what you want to think and you want the reality to be what you think It should be. So there is a difference between what we want or think and what actually is. While logic, reason , arguement and traditions all prove my point. But If you still insist on proving that jews were not guilty than the reason for your thought could be that you like a criminal society, well that's what I would say to anyone who isnt pleased while the criminals are punished.

Best Regards

[salman]

:

no more off topic discussions please and this is the last warning. Next time, the posts will be deleted without any warning. Talk about this Jews issues in an appropriate thread. This thread is mainly about Spencer and his book: Inside Islam. I allowed the discussion on interpretation as it was related to the subject.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Acid

I think you also have figured out about some differences between Muslims and Non-Muslims way of thinking but how I see this or how the reality is that we Muslims try to find logic, use reason and argument and also the traditions and not just relay on reason and logic because that would constitute as an incomplete information which is more deadly than to have no information.

I have provided you reason of the killing of the Jews in Madina but on otherhand the only thing which I get from you is that "It just doesnt seem good" but no reason so far. You say that there is no reason to imply that all Jews were evil but than the burden of proof is on you and not on me! Why do you think that all Jews were not evil while we have many reports of the Jewish "society" committing crimes on Muslim society which I mentioned in my previous post. This is as much fact as is the fact that Jewish tribes were living in Madina since a long time but this doesnt entitle them to do whatever they want. History also records that they were the people who fought the most and created mischief everywhere they went.

I have every reason to point of that Jews were evil, there is not a single record in history that any single Jew ever stood up for peace and those who stood up, became Muslims. It would do unjustice to the true picture of Jews of that time, If we say that this is all which they did, as earlier said that they were the greatest evil of the time.

But you only want to think what you want to think and you want the reality to be what you think It should be. So there is a difference between what we want or think and what actually is. While logic, reason , arguement and traditions all prove my point. But If you still insist on proving that jews were not guilty than the reason for your thought could be that you like a criminal society, well that's what I would say to anyone who isnt pleased while the criminals are punished.

I was not trying to 'prove' anything only saying there are other interpretations to the same facts regarding the Medina massacre. It is not logical if that is the way you talk to say some Jews were bad so all Jews are bad. The fact remains that the Muslims stole Jewish land and possessions - no matter how I look at the facts this seem irrefutable and presumably no matter how you justify that act.

It is just rubbish that 'not a single Jew in History stood for peace' - Jesus was a Jew and so were all His disciples - unless you are going to make the absurd suggestion they were Muslims? How can you be so narrow in your thinking if not dishonest there?

[salman]

^yes, Muslims are evil as they stoles their lands and all that but we can forget about their treacherous acts, right? Your double standards and so called "irrefutable" arguments have been exposed on more than once place now.

[Assad]

I find it funny how SilverLJ try to put it .. "Muslims stole their land" , It kinda looks like to me that one day Jews were asleep and then suddenly after mid-night Muslims bumped in Jewish lands and snatched their land away as in cartoon movies!

The reason he uses this phrase is because he want to avoid the discussions of Jewish acts and note that he provides no evidence that some jews amongst their were good as well!

The Jewish tribe was evil and was subsequently punished by Muslims. Now SilverLJ would say that "not all people in that Jewish tribe were evil" instead of "not all Jews were evil". How predictable !

[salman]

^bro, let's stop hijacking my thread and take this somewhere else

[Assad]

^ LOL , Okayy..