> Time

[binnasoordeen]

We talk, discuss and debate about natural selection, GOD , ALLAH, moralsm ethics .... so many stuff....

but I thought of something else .... If atheist and others say that this earth was created from nothing and no creator then who created " TIME " ?

PS: This isn't an argument to debate just a thought I shared with u all if u r interested pls answer

[Unknown]

The big bang. before the big bang, there was no time or space. Bur who created the big bang? A huge explosioon could not hae created itself. Is it official that the big bang is in the Qur'aan?
Why was time created we need to ask our selves and leave Athiests to Allah, Azz Aw Jall.

[salman]

I don't want to confuse everyone here but this issue is bit important when we go into details of aqeedah to have correct and precise understanding.

akh farshad, that is not best of the arguments. Time is not an independent creation because by definition time is nothing but occurrences of events. So, if no events are taking place then there is no time. Our understanding of time is simply a way to explain the number of occurrences of certain events.Hence, the atheists can argue back by saying that since events started to happen on their own, the time was "created".

The other way to understand is by asking ourselves a simple question: are numbers '1, 2, ..." real creations independently existing or they are simply concepts in our mind to relay and explain certain things?

Generally speaking, we do say that time is the creation of Allah and so are the numbers but not because they are independently created but because they are related to creation of Allah as terms used to describe certain aspects of Allah's creation.

I hope it doesn't confuse anyone.

and Allah knows best

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum Salman

Originally Posted by salman

akh farshad, that is not best of the arguments. Time is not an independent creation because by definition time is nothing but occurrences of events.

As I've explained before, time is not merely an arbitrary measurement of events. Time itself exists on its own as a material construct. It is part of a four-dimensional spatio-temporal construct; refered to as space-time. It is build up out of higgs-particles, and can be bended by gravity.

So, if no events are taking place then there is no time.

That makes as much sense as saying; if we don't move, there is no space; and if we close our eyes the world around us stops existing.

Selam aleykum Farshad
It is commonly believed among scientists that time and space formed spontaneously from matter after the big bang. There aren't however any detailed theories about that, mainly because scientists haven't figured out exactly just how time and space are constructed. But I agree with your point, it is yet another tell-tale sign of design.

[salman]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

Selam aleykum Salman

wa'alaykum as-salam bro

how are you doing now days?

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

As I've explained before, time is not merely an arbitrary measurement of events. Time itself exists on its own as a material construct. It is part of a four-dimensional spatio-temporal construct; refered to as space-time. It is build up out of higgs-particles, and can be bended by gravity.

i remember we went over this (briefly) before and what has been brought forward by scientist is nothing but theories and flawed understanding of what has come to us through revelation. If my memory serves me right, the idea of time, space being physical entity and bended with gravity etc., was first introduced by einstien and has something to do with his theory of relativity. correct me if I am wrong. We know from the Qur'an that time is defined as occurrences of events because Allah says that He created the day and night. Would one say that day and night are physical creations? They are creations of Allah indeed but not in sense we normally understand. Do numbers also exist physically?

I will try my best to get back to you on this in details within this week, insha'Allah.

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

That makes as much sense as saying; if we don't move, there is no space; and if we close our eyes the world around us stops existing.

no akhee, your points are absurd as far I am concerned. We know that the world around us physically exist so whether I close my eye or don't it is not going to change anything. As for space, is there space if there is no creation? Do we need space to exist? Because there are some people who believe that creation is physical entity existing on its own and every creation requires space to exist. As we normally understand that space is nothing but a concept to relay distance and relationship between two objects. Hence, if we move or don't move we know "space" still is there.

khayr, i am a handicap when it comes to science. so please pardon my ignorance

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum
I'm doing great, alhamdoelillahi. Busy planning my wedding (12/03 inshaAllah!)

i remember we went over this (briefly) before and what has been brought forward by scientist is nothing but theories and flawed understanding

Well relativity theory has been tested and proven true. As opposed to what, people's intuition? Because that's the only reason people object to relativity, but our intuition is formed trough experience, and our experiences are biased since we are time-dependant. So the experiments that scientists have conducted are far more of an authority compared to our intuition. And I'm not just speaking of mathematical technical proofs. They have actually caused things to travel in time proving that time can be manipulated.

of what has come to us through revelation. If my memory serves me right, the idea of time, space being physical entity and bended with gravity etc., was first introduced by einstien and has something to do with his theory of relativity. correct me if I am wrong. We know from the Qur'an that time is defined as occurrences of events

Yes you mentioned the same the previous time around. I had then asked you to point out where exactly this is explained. But As far as I remember you failed to bring any such sources without adding interpretations.

because Allah says that He created the day and night. Would one say that day and night are physical creations?

One has no bearing on the other.

They are creations of Allah indeed but not in sense we normally understand. Do numbers also exist physically?

That's like asking if "Salman" exists. Obviously you exist, but the name "Salman" which intends to refer to you is merely a concept, not a physical existence. So similarly the word "time" is a concept, but it refers to a physical construct.

no akhee, your points are absurd as far I am concerned. We know that the world around us physically exist so whether I close my eye or don't it is not going to change anything.

Off course, that was my point. I know it is absurd, and my point was that your claim is equally absurd. Just because there doesn't exist anything to measure time by, doesn't mean that time itself ceases to exist.

As for space, is there space if there is no creation? Do we need space to exist? Because there are some people who believe that creation is physical entity existing on its own and every creation requires space to exist. As we normally understand that space is nothing but a concept to relay distance and relationship between two objects. Hence, if we move or don't move we know "space" still is there.

Again I strongly disagree. For all of the same reasons as with time. And in this case the proofs for the theory are even more compelling and obvious. Astronomers have actually detected areas of empty space which have been bent by gravity. If it would be nothing but a concept to relay distance and relationship, then how could gravity possibly bend it?

khayr, i am a handicap when it comes to science. so please pardon my ignorance

To be honest, I find it confusing that you would admit this, and yet at the same time reluctantly cling to your intuitive views.

[Unknown]

Shaykh Muqbil (rahimahullah) said:

I say to the students of knowledge: Oh fools who call yourselves scholars, you have busied yourselves with the sciences of Greece, with morphology, and grammar, and definitions. And you think that that is knowledge, while knowlede is a clear ayah from the Book of Allaah: that you know it and the tafseer of its odd words, why it was revealed, and the explanation of what is perpelexing from it. Or it is a sunnah which comes from Allaah's Messenger (S): that you know how the Prophet (S) prayed, or how he made wudhu', or how he went to the restroom, how he fasted, how he made hajj, how he made jihaad, how was his speech and his holding his tongue, and how his conduct was. So follow his guidance, and act upon his sunnah because it is guidance and sunnah not because it is obligatory or prescribed for you. Or that you know what are the pillars of wudhu', what are the pillars of prayer, what is the nisaab for zakaah, and what is the necessary amount, and what are the proportions of the inheritance of the deceased. As for history and what makes one seek the hereafter from stories of the sahaabah and the taabi'een then that is good. As for what you busied yourself with and have become deep in, then it is not from the knowledge of the hereafter rather it is from the knowledge of the dunyaa. You have gone to the deep in the istihsaan of the fuqahaa' from before you and their categorizations. Don't you know that the ruling is what Allaah and His Messenger have legislated?

[binnasoordeen]

@salman

Originally Posted by farshad

PS: This isn't an argument to debate just a thought I shared with u all if u r interested pls answer

I din mean to provoke a debate with atheist nor not involved in any debates but just curious thts all !!! btw 1 thing u r 1 superb mod !

[Abdul-Fattah]

Originally Posted by Unknown

Shaykh Muqbil (rahimahullah) said:

I say to the students of knowledge: Oh fools who call yourselves scholars, you have busied yourselves with the sciences of Greece, with morphology, and grammar, and definitions. And you think that that is knowledge, while knowlede is a clear ayah from the Book of Allaah: that you know it and the tafseer of its odd words, why it was revealed, and the explanation of what is perpelexing from it. Or it is a sunnah which comes from Allaah's Messenger (S): that you know how the Prophet (S) prayed, or how he made wudhu', or how he went to the restroom, how he fasted, how he made hajj, how he made jihaad, how was his speech and his holding his tongue, and how his conduct was. So follow his guidance, and act upon his sunnah because it is guidance and sunnah not because it is obligatory or prescribed for you. Or that you know what are the pillars of wudhu', what are the pillars of prayer, what is the nisaab for zakaah, and what is the necessary amount, and what are the proportions of the inheritance of the deceased. As for history and what makes one seek the hereafter from stories of the sahaabah and the taabi'een then that is good. As for what you busied yourself with and have become deep in, then it is not from the knowledge of the hereafter rather it is from the knowledge of the dunyaa. You have gone to the deep in the istihsaan of the fuqahaa' from before you and their categorizations. Don't you know that the ruling is what Allaah and His Messenger have legislated?

Selam aleykum
No offense, but how does that quote have anything to do with this thread? Also, you should be carefull not to misinterpret that quote. While religious knowledge might be the most important knowledge, that doesn't mean that all other fields of knowledge are bad and to be shunned. Quite the contrary, the Qur'an invites us in many verses to examine, explore and question.

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by Unknown

Shaykh Muqbil (rahimahullah) said:

I say to the students of knowledge: Oh fools who call yourselves scholars, you have busied yourselves with the sciences of Greece, with morphology, and grammar, and definitions. And you think that that is knowledge, while knowlede is a clear ayah from the Book of Allaah: that you know it and the tafseer of its odd words, why it was revealed, and the explanation of what is perpelexing from it. Or it is a sunnah which comes from Allaah's Messenger (S): that you know how the Prophet (S) prayed, or how he made wudhu', or how he went to the restroom, how he fasted, how he made hajj, how he made jihaad, how was his speech and his holding his tongue, and how his conduct was. So follow his guidance, and act upon his sunnah because it is guidance and sunnah not because it is obligatory or prescribed for you. Or that you know what are the pillars of wudhu', what are the pillars of prayer, what is the nisaab for zakaah, and what is the necessary amount, and what are the proportions of the inheritance of the deceased. As for history and what makes one seek the hereafter from stories of the sahaabah and the taabi'een then that is good. As for what you busied yourself with and have become deep in, then it is not from the knowledge of the hereafter rather it is from the knowledge of the dunyaa. You have gone to the deep in the istihsaan of the fuqahaa' from before you and their categorizations. Don't you know that the ruling is what Allaah and His Messenger have legislated?

this is al-haq upon which we must accept.
however, your application may not have been proper. Shaykh Uthaymeen spoke about the other sciences that it is waajib for a portion of muslims to know them to alleviate other muslims from learning it. So each field has its people. As long as everyone knows that the ilmul-'Ala is qaala Allah, wa qaala rasool, and whatever the companions have said.