> Question Oh Muslims!

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

^tayyib (ok). 1 - we already understood that point but this doesn't answer our question: how do we achieve what you are purposing? Are we going to achieve it by abandoning shari'ah as it was stated in first post?

Salam,

I do not think the person who posted the initial post was infact calling to abandone shari'ah. I quote

"It’s not the time to try to achieve any goals according to sharia'h (Islamic Law), unless we develop our faith and the reality of our deen (way of life) first."

What I understood from the above is; we have to develop our faith first if we want to acheive our goals according to Shari'ah. If he was calling to abandone Shariah, I will say he is an IDIOT

2 - You don't believe that calamities are from Allah. Did you change your view?

No. Here you misunderstood what I said earlier. There is no doubt all calamities that befall on mankind are from Allah. May be you read only part of what I wrote.

“No calamity, misfortune or disaster befalls but by Allah’s permission”. (64:11)


It does not mean Allah simply let it happen any calamity to fall on people randomly or whimsically. The cause is always triggered by the man himself; Allah just lets thecalamities befall. All calamities are linked to man’s own deeds and it is the reason why Allah said at another place

“There is no tragedy which befalls you but as result of your own handiwork” (42:30)

Look at another verse also,

Sura Rome: “When We (give a) taste of bounty to men, they are very pleased by it, but when calamity comes to them due to their own deeds, they are frustrated. Don’t they see that Allah increases or scales down sustenance for whoever so wishes? Surely, in this are signs for the Convinced” – (30/36-37).



In this context the following verses are also important. Allah says in 4:78


“And if some good befalls them, they say, 'This is from God;' and if evil befalls them, they say, 'This is from thee.' Say, 'All is from God.” (4:78)

The very next verse says;


“Whatever of good comes to thee is from God; and whatever of evil befalls thee is from thyself. And We have sent thee as a Messenger to all mankind. And sufficient is God as a Witness. (4:79)


There is no contradiction between the above two consecutive verses.

i)All events- good or bad - occur according to natural (Allah’s) laws
(كل من عند الله).
ii)Allah’s Law - if followed - shall bring good to you -
ما اصابك من حسنة فمن الله
but
iii)If you follow the path of your own choice (other than Allah’s), the natural result will be trouble. ما اصابك من سيئة فمن نفسك

Simply put, then, all events (actions) bear results pre-determined by Allah’s law. If one follows the natural (Allah’s suggested) course, one benefits. Otherwise (when one defies the divine law) the natural consequence is tragedy.

I hope I have clarified sufficiently

Wassalam

[al-boriqee]

Can nobody seem to answer the simple questions wallahul-musta'an

asalamu alaikum

[salman]

Originally Posted by optimist

Salam,

I do not think the person who posted the initial post was infact calling to abandone shari'ah. I quote

"It’s not the time to try to achieve any goals according to sharia'h (Islamic Law), unless we develop our faith and the reality of our deen (way of life) first."

What I understood from the above is; we have to develop our faith first if we want to acheive our goals according to Shari'ah. If he was calling to abandone Shariah, I will say he is an IDIOT

wa'alaykum as-salam

Shari'ah = Islam
Islam = Shari'ah

How are we going to develop our faith without Shari'ah? Again, repeating ourselves, what do you suggest we should do to develop our faith?

[ahmedmoait]

As Sallaam Alaikum!
Jazak Allah khair for the comments and the discussion so far. May Allah unite us all and guide us only to Him[swt]!
A Message from Da'ee Ahmed Moait "For all the answers queried and discussed in the forum so far, Please go to my website noora1.com and watch my talks in THE FINAL CHAPTER noora1.com/final_chapter.htm, Visit Dawaah (Invitation) to Allah Part 1, 2 & 3 noora1.com/dawaah.htm, also watch Journey of Victory within vs. Journey of Defeat within. Remember we cannot just talk and discuss that it, as i always say there are no magicpills in the journey of imaan that u can take and your imaan will grow. Its a journey, kindly go watch these videos and talks inshaAllah you will get all the answers your are discussing, remember we all have the chronic disease of colonialism developed over a period of 300 years and no magic pill can help. As Sallaam Alaikum! "

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

wa'alaykum as-salam

Originally Posted by salman

Shari'ah = Islam
Islam = Shari'ah

How are we going to develop our faith without Shari'ah? Again, repeating ourselves, what do you suggest we should do to develop our faith?

Salam,

Again your mind is focused on abandoning Shari'ah laws/ Islamic laws which is not the thing (as I understand) implied in the initial post. To achieve our goals according to Shariah means to gain the fruits of shariah/ Islamic laws. There is no use in getting involved in arguements regarding different schools of thought. There is no use in concentrating in the outward observance of shariah laws without having inside our heart the true essense of Islamic laws. Most Muslims follow Islam as some sort of prescriptions to follow. Our primary focus must always be ‘Mind’ and ‘Message’, not the ‘Body’ or its ‘Motions’, and then only we will be able to enjoy the fruits of Shariah laws.


“It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which you have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing” -(2:177)

"And they have been commanded no more than this: To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to practise regular charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight."(98:5)

Again;

"Their flesh reaches not God, nor does their blood, but it is your righteousness that reaches Him."(22:37)

Wassalam

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by optimist

Salam,

Again your mind is focused on abandoning Shari'ah laws/ Islamic laws which is not the thing (as I understand) implied in the initial post. To achieve our goals according to Shariah means to gain the fruits of shariah/ Islamic laws. There is no use in getting involved in arguements regarding different schools of thought. There is no use in concentrating in the outward observance of shariah laws without having inside our heart the true essense of Islamic laws. Most Muslims follow Islam as some sort of prescriptions to follow. Our primary focus must always be ‘Mind’ and ‘Message’, not the ‘Body’ or its ‘Motions’, and then only we will be able to enjoy the fruits of Shariah laws.


“It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which you have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing” -(2:177)

"And they have been commanded no more than this: To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to practise regular charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight."(98:5)

Again;

"Their flesh reaches not God, nor does their blood, but it is your righteousness that reaches Him."(22:37)

Wassalam

optimist, I think you are failing grasp the higher intent of Salman.

No one here, optimist, is proposing that Islam be reduced to a perpetual state of action filled ritual with no higher meaning behind them. In fact our position of the one who merely does the acts with out understanding them is a jaahil and the one who does them but has no faith in them is a munaafiq and the one who does them to please or appease others is a mushrik (of the lesser type due to riya).

However, You optimist are on a totally different madhaab. Your view of attaining the "OBJECTIVES" and higher goals of the shariah in reality ENTAILS cutting off the tree in the process. With no tree, how do we enjoy its fruits.

What Salman is informing you is that our position is actually encompassing yours WHILE our position entails MORE THAN THAT. So in reality our view is more comprehensive than your narrower point of view. WHY?

because your angle of approach is centered on attaining the higher intent of the shariah while relegating ineffectiveness to the actions that result in the path of attaining its higher aims

IN contrast to that, we aim and aspire Muslims to understand and reach these higher goals while placing importance to the implementation of Islam, WHY? because we know that the only way that the essence of attaining true faith and realizing the higher objectives of the shariah CAN ONLY BE ACHIEVED through our methodology, and not yours.

If you really intend to have Muslims understand the higher aspects of the shariah, then that intent should automatically incline your heart to our methodology and not the methodology your proposing.

[optimist]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

optimist, I think you are failing grasp the higher intent of Salman.

No one here, optimist, is proposing that Islam be reduced to a perpetual state of action filled ritual with no higher meaning behind them. In fact our position of the one who merely does the acts with out understanding them is a jaahil and the one who does them but has no faith in them is a munaafiq and the one who does them to please or appease others is a mushrik (of the lesser type due to riya).

However, You optimist are on a totally different madhaab. Your view of attaining the "OBJECTIVES" and higher goals of the shariah in reality ENTAILS cutting off the tree in the process. With no tree, how do we enjoy its fruits.

What Salman is informing you is that our position is actually encompassing yours WHILE our position entails MORE THAN THAT. So in reality our view is more comprehensive than your narrower point of view. WHY?

because your angle of approach is centered on attaining the higher intent of the shariah while relegating ineffectiveness to the actions that result in the path of attaining its higher aims

IN contrast to that, we aim and aspire Muslims to understand and reach these higher goals while placing importance to the implementation of Islam, WHY? because we know that the only way that the essence of attaining true faith and realizing the higher objectives of the shariah CAN ONLY BE ACHIEVED through our methodology, and not yours.

If you really intend to have Muslims understand the higher aspects of the shariah, then that intent should automatically incline your heart to our methodology and not the methodology your proposing.

Don't misunderstand me. I was not negating the need to follow methodology to reach the highter objectives. May be, we have differences of opinion for the methodology that we need to follow. However, I accept your position 'to aspire Muslims to understand and reach these higher goals while placing importance to the implementation of Islam'.

Please read this amazing work by Parwez "ISLAM A CHALLEGE TO RELGION" where this points are elaborately detailed.

ISLAM A Challenge To Religion

Wassalam

[salman]

^and I don't think anyone want to read work by someone who is nobody in Islamic realm. Just a quick glance at his biography can tell a uncorrupted Muslim that flee from his works. His ideals or people who inspired him or with whom he was very attached were Mohammad Iqbal, the famous poet who was mu'tazili in his theology, and Muhammad Ali Jinaah, the founder of Pakistan who was Isma'ili.

May Allah protect us from these people of kalam and self learned 'scholars' and 'thinkers' of Islam, ameen.

[ahmedmoait]

As Sallaam Alaikum!
Jazak Allah khair for the comments and the discussion so far. May Allah unite us all and guide us only to Him[swt]!
A Message from Da'ee Ahmed Moait "For all the answers queried and discussed in the forum so far, Please go to my website noora1.com and watch my talks in THE FINAL CHAPTER noora1.com/final_chapter.htm, Visit Dawaah (Invitation) to Allah Part 1, 2 & 3 noora1.com/dawaah.htm, also watch Journey of Victory within vs. Journey of Defeat within. Remember we cannot just talk and discuss that it, as i always say there are no magicpills in the journey of imaan that u can take and your imaan will grow. Its a journey, kindly go watch these videos and talks inshaAllah you will get all the answers your are discussing, remember we all have the chronic disease of colonialism developed over a period of 300 years and no magic pill can help. As Sallaam Alaikum! "

[salamfromrom]

May be, we have differences of opinion for the methodology that we need to follow.

Not maybe, but definately. The real problem in my view is that nobody knows how to bridge the divide. No one has any ideas on how we can cooperate on eachother in order to make the average Joe's life better.

As much as I hate the current world order based on Ribah and falsehoods, at least they can cooperate and get things done and I think this is what average people want. People, In my opinion are tired of slogans and the rhetoric of different groups who struggle to get to power. Democracy has become popular precisely because in most cases it has generally made people's lives better.

There are no clear strategies to make the different groups/sects within Islam live in peace with eachother (not to mention the world) and that is sad because originally Islam was all about uniting people. If one group comes to power, it imposes its will on the others. The people rebel then we're back to square one. The predominant view among many today is ''if you do not ascribe to our interpretation/traditional interpretation/salafi/etc then you are an apostate and apostates should be killed. Yeah goodluck doing that with a billion people. We cannot agree to disagree. I don't want to sound pessimistic, but I can see no real way out of our predicament until there's some sort of change in mentality or something.


salam a leikum