Arguing with non muslims

binnasoordeen · 02-14-2010, 09:58 AM

Ive stopped arguing with non-muslim on some non muslim forums but there I have some muslim friends who are still arguing and debating on topics but the problem is this never ends !!!

I was telling them to stop but the answer I get is "WE ARE DEFENDING ISLAM Y CAN'T U DEFEND ??? ITS OUR RELIGION !!!" like but its crystal clear that they are arguing with some fools and its like a pig story "when you wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it. "

so what I ask form IL members is what is the islamic ruling on debating ??? I mean I know some scholars in islam spoked abt arguing if you can please provide them I can send an email to my friends Insha allah!!!

Tema · 02-14-2010, 10:45 PM

Assalamu Alaikum

I hope this is any relavent.

[QUOTE]

Question:
Is da’wah (calling) to Allâh obligatory upon every Muslim man and woman, or is it to be left for the Scholars and the students of knowledge only? Is it permissible for the lay person to do da’wah to Allâh?

Answer:
“When a person has knowledge and insight into that which he is calling to, then there is no difference between the one who has a great amount of knowledge, or a student of knowledge who has recently started in pursuit of knowledge or a lay person - as long as he has certain knowledge of the issue at hand. The Prophet sallallâhu ’alayhi wa sallam said: “Convey from me, even if it is one verse.” [al-Bukhaaree] So it is not a condition upon the dâ’î (the one calling) to attain a great amount of knowledge, but the condition is that one must have knowledge of what one is calling to. If this calling is established upon ignorance and built upon emotion and passion, then it is not permissible.

Thus, we see that some of the brothers who call to Allâh, they do not have except a little knowledge. We see them, due to their strong emotions, prohibiting that which Allâh has not prohibited, whilst making obligatory that which Allâh has not made obligatory upon His worshippers. This is a very dangerous matter, since permitting what Allâh has made harâm (unlawful) is like prohibiting what Allâh has made halâl (lawful). So when they begin prohibiting people for making a particular matter then others will rebuke them for making it harâm. Allâh - the Most High - says: “And do not say, concerning that which your tongues falsely put forward, ‘This is lawful and this is forbidden,’ so as to invent lies against Allâh. Indeed, those who invent lies against Allâh will never prosper.” [an-Nahl 16:116-117] As for the lay person, then he must not call to Allâh if he does not have knowledge. Rather, it is essential to have knowledge in accordance with the saying of Allâh - the Most High -: “Say: This is my path. I call to Allâh upon sure knowledge.” [Yoosuf 12:108] So it is a must to call to Allâh upon knowledge. However, if a matter is clearly known to be evil or good, then one can command it - if it is good, or forbid it - if it is evil.

So the callers to Allâh must start with knowledge. Whosoever calls to Allâh without knowledge, then such a person will cause greater harm than good - as is evident. So it is obligatory for a person to first acquire knowledge, then to do da’wah. As for the clear evils and that which is clearly good, then the good is enjoined and the evil prohibited.”[/QUOTE]

Shaykh Muhammad bin Saalih al-`Uthaymeen
As-Sahwatul-Islâmiyyah (pp.75-76) of Shaykh lbn al-’Uthaymîn.

salman · 02-15-2010, 09:03 PM

As-Salam 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

I don't think I need to add much; the Shaykh's (rahimahullah) answer is very clear.

Akhee, you and I know that the da'wah you are speaking about comes with knowledge. Hence, it is not an obligation upon every single person; it is not our job to make sure that every nut job out there is refuted. Our job is convey the message and if they have questions then we answer them; it is as simple as that. The situation becomes even worse when someone is involved in these endless arguments and he speaks about Islam without knowledge because that only hurts Islam. Secondly, when we look at the hertiage of the Salaf, we learn that whenever a stubborn person came to them to argue and debate they said we know our deen.

So this how you should advise the brothers:

1) it is not an obligation upon everyone because not everyone has the knowledge to deal their suspicious arguments
2) we know from the Qur'an that some people will never accept haqq regardless of what we bring forth. So, we need to leave these kinds of people alone
3) let us not busy ourselves with endless arguments because they do not bring much benefit at the end. Let us spend that time on other things like reciting the Qur'an and learning Arabic, seeking knowledge etc.

binnasoordeen · 02-16-2010, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salman

I don't think I need to add much; the Shaykh's (rahimahullah) answer is very clear.

Akhee, you and I know that the da'wah you are speaking about comes with knowledge. Hence, it is not an obligation upon every single person; it is not our job to make sure that every nut job out there is refuted. Our job is convey the message and if they have questions then we answer them; it is as simple as that. The situation becomes even worse when someone is involved in these endless arguments and he speaks about Islam without knowledge because that only hurts Islam. Secondly, when we look at the hertiage of the Salaf, we learn that whenever a stubborn person came to them to argue and debate they said we know our deen.

So this how you should advise the brothers:

1) it is not an obligation upon everyone because not everyone has the knowledge to deal their suspicious arguments
2) we know from the Qur'an that some people will never accept haqq regardless of what we bring forth. So, we need to leave these kinds of people alone
3) let us not busy ourselves with endless arguments because they do not bring much benefit at the end. Let us spend that time on other things like reciting the Qur'an and learning Arabic, seeking knowledge etc.

jazaakallah kyr akee salman and Unknown very usefull posts

Sampharo · 02-16-2010, 05:51 AM

Actually Farshad has a point slightly different than the direction taken.

All the Sheikh's words are meant for da'wah, spreading Islam. It does not refer to getting into their endless philosphical manipulations, which I believe Farshad was referring to.

General muslims da'waa would be up to their level of knowledge, so a person should correct his brother's behaviour or salat if he errs, and would be good to invite muslims to prayer if he sees them on a cafe ignoring an athan, and to invite and speak of good moral behaviour to anyone commiting sins, and to call to God with the best of their knowledge and not get involved in something outside their knowledge. But more importantly you should know what is a productive debate, and what is a deteriorated disruptive argument that you should avoid.

The prophet's -Salla Allahu Alaihi Wasallam - sessions with kuffar in such debates were of utmost respect and decency and used to be separate from the general muslims. As soon as the kuffar's attitude became sarcastic or stupid, it was required of the muslims to simply leave the place "If they turn to laghw (useless and idle talk) then say "peace" and leave them". The prophet biggest way of da'waa was simply ask the people to join Islam. He visited the sick jew and after asking how he was, simply said "Aslem" meaning "join Islam", to which the jew said no, and the prophet left. Another time a boy was dying in his jewish father's arms and the prophet -s.a.a.w.- asked him if he has read about him (the prophet) in his books, to which the father shook his head in negation, but the boy cried out saying yes he did. The prophet -s.a.a.w.- asked the boy to pronounce the shahada and told the companions to take him away from the jewish man for he is now their brother. Umar Ibn Al-Khattab -Radeya Allahu Anh- advised his christian servent several times that he should join Islam, and when the man says no, Umar would recite the Quranic verse "No compulsion in religion". No debate, arguments, or heated convincing.

Sheikhs making lessons and when faced with a challenging question, they would answer it, if it turns to an argument they would look away and be quiet. Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal used to refuse any and ALL invitations to debate, especially with Mutazala. He used to say that Quran is clear and Sunnah is clear, if they have anything else to argue with it is not of their concern. Ahmed Deedat only debated with priests and antagonistic characters but always kept excellent protocol and aptitude, and showed to the World that he had complete knowledge about the subjects he discussed, and never subjected himself or Islam to becoming a victim of unmoderated arguments that would just be a loud exchange of self-opinions.

Today's forum arguments are more and more maniuplations and agenda driven attacks on Islam rather than genuine questions. It involves misinformation and falsification of truth. There is little sincerity in what they bring, and many of the arguments are tired and old, but they aim to cast doubt in most unknowledgable muslims reading.

Because of the involvement in such "defense", it becomes a fight and like Farshad described (rolling around in the mud with pigs). You can't impart knowledge in a pigsty, and no one would dare come near angry dirty bloodied fighters and ask about the path to God or enlightenment. You impart knowledge in classrooms and in quiet masjid corners and respectable seminars, and if discipline and order is not supported no one would learn, and many would be even confused by the barage of doubt thrown in by non-muslims (especially the philosophical tricks of the athiests).

If you face a post or thread that is asking a question about Islam, even an outrageous one, answer it if you know (and you KNOW you know based on evidence from Quran and Sunna and learned it from knowledgable sheikhs or reliable sources, not concluded in your mind or guessed or told by someone else). Copy a scholar's answer as well (except in needs to be relevent and applicable) if you wish confirmation. Go into conversations with people who are actually inquiring, not those who are outright bashing. If there is a fight, you're not doing much to convince the person by fighting and arguing back because... the person is not really frustrated by not understanding your point, they are arguing to win their point. It is a responsibility of Islamic forum moderators not to allow the forums to be hijacked by such rampant arguments.

One of the reasons I reduced my presence in some forums was precisely this: that I found myself increasingly in a place where loud debates are deteriorating into sarcastic argumentative exchanges that aim to deliver no knowledge, but where we were constantly on the defensive trying to expose the lies and twists of information that were being thrown, but in the process end up being loud instruments that adds to the seeds of doubt many of them were aiming to sow in the first place.

Good point to raise Farshad.

Aayah · 02-16-2010, 12:11 PM

I have been active in some non-Muslims forums for some time. I got many to learn from that experience. You can tell immediately who is welling to debate in a good manner and who is just there to mock Islam. The second type method is coming with new attack in every single post. Even if your post was asking them about something in their own posts they switched to another attack and come to you from another corner. Those people have so much free time in their hands and you will be wasting your time with them so its better to value your time over wasting it with such folk.

There are levels in Dawah according to the knowledge that someone have
I think this will help inshaAllah:

YouTube - The best investment a Muslim can make with guest Kemal El Mekki on TheDeenShow

binnasoordeen · 03-03-2010, 01:33 PM

akee another argument is that we can search for answers when kuffars ask question like answers are all over internet like.. and also some say tht by doing this they can gain more knowledge

salman · 03-03-2010, 03:08 PM

^akhee, that is not the proper to way learn knowledge. What if you cannot find an answer online? You and I both know what will happen if a person cannot find an answer? Secondly, how do you know that the answer you found is from trustworthy knowledgeable people? Plus, this sort of da'wah is not cut for everyone. Not everyone has to do this. Because of this cyberage everyone has busied themselves with this sort of da'wah while forgeting other more important things.

We first learn basics of Islam and then educate ourselves about topics which are often questioned by kufaar. By educating I mean, we should learn about their line of argument and learn our responses and how to respond in such situations. So, we should prepare ourselves before hand and then jump into discussions etc.

Wallahu A'lam

binnasoordeen · 03-04-2010, 02:45 AM

^ masha allah that point is also cleared
what else many muslims present regarding non muslim dawa.... ?

Also there is another category of people who are muslims but not knowledged in islam but when they learn pure islam they feel we shall do some thing to deen and become zakir naik full time drzakir naik videos and other scholar videos on arguing with non muslims this type of brothers and sisters often use the #1 argument

binnasoordeen · 03-31-2010, 10:51 AM

I hope this word file is good for sharing so I created one please review

02-14-2010, 10:45 PM	#2
Tema Banned Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida, US Posts: 458 Gender: Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 91 Thanked 34 Times in 29 Posts	Re: Arguing with non muslims Assalamu Alaikum I hope this is any relavent. [QUOTE] Question: Is da’wah (calling) to Allâh obligatory upon every Muslim man and woman, or is it to be left for the Scholars and the students of knowledge only? Is it permissible for the lay person to do da’wah to Allâh? Answer: “When a person has knowledge and insight into that which he is calling to, then there is no difference between the one who has a great amount of knowledge, or a student of knowledge who has recently started in pursuit of knowledge or a lay person - as long as he has certain knowledge of the issue at hand. The Prophet sallallâhu ’alayhi wa sallam said: “Convey from me, even if it is one verse.” [al-Bukhaaree] So it is not a condition upon the dâ’î (the one calling) to attain a great amount of knowledge, but the condition is that one must have knowledge of what one is calling to. If this calling is established upon ignorance and built upon emotion and passion, then it is not permissible. Thus, we see that some of the brothers who call to Allâh, they do not have except a little knowledge. We see them, due to their strong emotions, prohibiting that which Allâh has not prohibited, whilst making obligatory that which Allâh has not made obligatory upon His worshippers. This is a very dangerous matter, since permitting what Allâh has made harâm (unlawful) is like prohibiting what Allâh has made halâl (lawful). So when they begin prohibiting people for making a particular matter then others will rebuke them for making it harâm. Allâh - the Most High - says: “And do not say, concerning that which your tongues falsely put forward, ‘This is lawful and this is forbidden,’ so as to invent lies against Allâh. Indeed, those who invent lies against Allâh will never prosper.” [an-Nahl 16:116-117] As for the lay person, then he must not call to Allâh if he does not have knowledge. Rather, it is essential to have knowledge in accordance with the saying of Allâh - the Most High -: “Say: This is my path. I call to Allâh upon sure knowledge.” [Yoosuf 12:108] So it is a must to call to Allâh upon knowledge. However, if a matter is clearly known to be evil or good, then one can command it - if it is good, or forbid it - if it is evil. So the callers to Allâh must start with knowledge. Whosoever calls to Allâh without knowledge, then such a person will cause greater harm than good - as is evident. So it is obligatory for a person to first acquire knowledge, then to do da’wah. As for the clear evils and that which is clearly good, then the good is enjoined and the evil prohibited.”[/QUOTE] Shaykh Muhammad bin Saalih al-`Uthaymeen As-Sahwatul-Islâmiyyah (pp.75-76) of Shaykh lbn al-’Uthaymîn.

02-15-2010, 09:03 PM	#3
salman Proud Islamist Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Islamic-Life.com Posts: 2,168 Gender: Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 73 Thanked 295 Times in 213 Posts	Re: Arguing with non muslims I don't think I need to add much; the Shaykh's (rahimahullah) answer is very clear. Akhee, you and I know that the da'wah you are speaking about comes with knowledge. Hence, it is not an obligation upon every single person; it is not our job to make sure that every nut job out there is refuted. Our job is convey the message and if they have questions then we answer them; it is as simple as that. The situation becomes even worse when someone is involved in these endless arguments and he speaks about Islam without knowledge because that only hurts Islam. Secondly, when we look at the hertiage of the Salaf, we learn that whenever a stubborn person came to them to argue and debate they said we know our deen. So this how you should advise the brothers: 1) it is not an obligation upon everyone because not everyone has the knowledge to deal their suspicious arguments 2) we know from the Qur'an that some people will never accept haqq regardless of what we bring forth. So, we need to leave these kinds of people alone 3) let us not busy ourselves with endless arguments because they do not bring much benefit at the end. Let us spend that time on other things like reciting the Qur'an and learning Arabic, seeking knowledge etc. __________________ Fi Amanillah Wa As-Salamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu The Prophet sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam said: "The Muslim is a unique Ummah among the whole of mankind: Their Land is ONE, their War is ONE, their Peace is ONE, Their Honour is ONE and their Trust is ONE." [Relayed by Imam of Ahlus Sunnah - Ahmad ibn Hanbal - rahimahullah]

02-16-2010, 05:51 AM	#5
Sampharo On the path of Ilm Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Departure Gate to Afterlife Posts: 23 Gender: Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 2 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Arguing with non muslims Actually Farshad has a point slightly different than the direction taken. All the Sheikh's words are meant for da'wah, spreading Islam. It does not refer to getting into their endless philosphical manipulations, which I believe Farshad was referring to. General muslims da'waa would be up to their level of knowledge, so a person should correct his brother's behaviour or salat if he errs, and would be good to invite muslims to prayer if he sees them on a cafe ignoring an athan, and to invite and speak of good moral behaviour to anyone commiting sins, and to call to God with the best of their knowledge and not get involved in something outside their knowledge. But more importantly you should know what is a productive debate, and what is a deteriorated disruptive argument that you should avoid. The prophet's -Salla Allahu Alaihi Wasallam - sessions with kuffar in such debates were of utmost respect and decency and used to be separate from the general muslims. As soon as the kuffar's attitude became sarcastic or stupid, it was required of the muslims to simply leave the place "If they turn to laghw (useless and idle talk) then say "peace" and leave them". The prophet biggest way of da'waa was simply ask the people to join Islam. He visited the sick jew and after asking how he was, simply said "Aslem" meaning "join Islam", to which the jew said no, and the prophet left. Another time a boy was dying in his jewish father's arms and the prophet -s.a.a.w.- asked him if he has read about him (the prophet) in his books, to which the father shook his head in negation, but the boy cried out saying yes he did. The prophet -s.a.a.w.- asked the boy to pronounce the shahada and told the companions to take him away from the jewish man for he is now their brother. Umar Ibn Al-Khattab -Radeya Allahu Anh- advised his christian servent several times that he should join Islam, and when the man says no, Umar would recite the Quranic verse "No compulsion in religion". No debate, arguments, or heated convincing. Sheikhs making lessons and when faced with a challenging question, they would answer it, if it turns to an argument they would look away and be quiet. Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal used to refuse any and ALL invitations to debate, especially with Mutazala. He used to say that Quran is clear and Sunnah is clear, if they have anything else to argue with it is not of their concern. Ahmed Deedat only debated with priests and antagonistic characters but always kept excellent protocol and aptitude, and showed to the World that he had complete knowledge about the subjects he discussed, and never subjected himself or Islam to becoming a victim of unmoderated arguments that would just be a loud exchange of self-opinions. Today's forum arguments are more and more maniuplations and agenda driven attacks on Islam rather than genuine questions. It involves misinformation and falsification of truth. There is little sincerity in what they bring, and many of the arguments are tired and old, but they aim to cast doubt in most unknowledgable muslims reading. Because of the involvement in such "defense", it becomes a fight and like Farshad described (rolling around in the mud with pigs). You can't impart knowledge in a pigsty, and no one would dare come near angry dirty bloodied fighters and ask about the path to God or enlightenment. You impart knowledge in classrooms and in quiet masjid corners and respectable seminars, and if discipline and order is not supported no one would learn, and many would be even confused by the barage of doubt thrown in by non-muslims (especially the philosophical tricks of the athiests). If you face a post or thread that is asking a question about Islam, even an outrageous one, answer it if you know (and you KNOW you know based on evidence from Quran and Sunna and learned it from knowledgable sheikhs or reliable sources, not concluded in your mind or guessed or told by someone else). Copy a scholar's answer as well (except in needs to be relevent and applicable) if you wish confirmation. Go into conversations with people who are actually inquiring, not those who are outright bashing. If there is a fight, you're not doing much to convince the person by fighting and arguing back because... the person is not really frustrated by not understanding your point, they are arguing to win their point. It is a responsibility of Islamic forum moderators not to allow the forums to be hijacked by such rampant arguments. One of the reasons I reduced my presence in some forums was precisely this: that I found myself increasingly in a place where loud debates are deteriorating into sarcastic argumentative exchanges that aim to deliver no knowledge, but where we were constantly on the defensive trying to expose the lies and twists of information that were being thrown, but in the process end up being loud instruments that adds to the seeds of doubt many of them were aiming to sow in the first place. Good point to raise Farshad.

03-03-2010, 01:33 PM	#7
binnasoordeen MR.P Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 137 Gender: Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 38 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Arguing with non muslims akee another argument is that we can search for answers when kuffars ask question like answers are all over internet like.. and also some say tht by doing this they can gain more knowledge

03-03-2010, 03:08 PM	#8
salman Proud Islamist Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Islamic-Life.com Posts: 2,168 Gender: Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 73 Thanked 295 Times in 213 Posts	Re: Arguing with non muslims ^akhee, that is not the proper to way learn knowledge. What if you cannot find an answer online? You and I both know what will happen if a person cannot find an answer? Secondly, how do you know that the answer you found is from trustworthy knowledgeable people? Plus, this sort of da'wah is not cut for everyone. Not everyone has to do this. Because of this cyberage everyone has busied themselves with this sort of da'wah while forgeting other more important things. We first learn basics of Islam and then educate ourselves about topics which are often questioned by kufaar. By educating I mean, we should learn about their line of argument and learn our responses and how to respond in such situations. So, we should prepare ourselves before hand and then jump into discussions etc. Wallahu A'lam __________________ Fi Amanillah Wa As-Salamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu The Prophet sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam said: "The Muslim is a unique Ummah among the whole of mankind: Their Land is ONE, their War is ONE, their Peace is ONE, Their Honour is ONE and their Trust is ONE." [Relayed by Imam of Ahlus Sunnah - Ahmad ibn Hanbal - rahimahullah]

02-14-2010, 09:58 AM	#1
binnasoordeen MR.P Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 137 Gender: Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 38 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Arguing with non muslims Ive stopped arguing with non-muslim on some non muslim forums but there I have some muslim friends who are still arguing and debating on topics but the problem is this never ends !!! I was telling them to stop but the answer I get is "WE ARE DEFENDING ISLAM Y CAN'T U DEFEND ??? ITS OUR RELIGION !!!" like but its crystal clear that they are arguing with some fools and its like a pig story "when you wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it. " so what I ask form IL members is what is the islamic ruling on debating ??? I mean I know some scholars in islam spoked abt arguing if you can please provide them I can send an email to my friends Insha allah!!!

03-04-2010, 02:45 AM	#9
binnasoordeen MR.P Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 137 Gender: Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 38 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Arguing with non muslims ^ masha allah that point is also cleared what else many muslims present regarding non muslim dawa.... ? Also there is another category of people who are muslims but not knowledged in islam but when they learn pure islam they feel we shall do some thing to deen and become zakir naik full time drzakir naik videos and other scholar videos on arguing with non muslims this type of brothers and sisters often use the #1 argument

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