> Science reasons on pork.

[Abdul-Fattah]

What I've noticed you doing is making lots of unsubstantiated “scientific” claims. A chicken farm is a “normal condition.” I do not understand what you mean by “not under normal conditions.” A laboratory is not a normal condition. A chicken farm is a normal condition.

The normal condition, refers to the normal methodology for a virus to enter the cell. As I explained quite in detail, this virus is unable to enter our cells trough the mechanisms by which virusus normally enter our cells. the only way they can, is trough freak occurrences or other malfunctions.

According to WebMd, people who come in contact with sick chickens, ducks, or turkeys are more likely to get the virus. Bird flu virus can be pased through bird droppings and saliva. It can also live on surfaces such as cages, tractors, and other farm equipment.

Just because it gets in your body, doesn't mean it can enter your cells.

According to the World Health Organization, the vast majority of human cases of H5N1 have acquired their infection following direct contact with infected live or dead poultry...in a few instances, cases have been linked to consumption of dishes made of raw contaminated poultry blood.

No not at all. Let me quote their wording:

Most human cases of H5N1 virus infection are thought to have occurred as a result of direct contact with sick or dead infected poultry.

But in teh few cases where they have actually with certainty (rather then trough speculation) established the cause, a pig was intermediate.

Seriously, Abdul-Fattah, where are you getting your information to make the claim that birds don't spread avian influenza to humans under normal conditions? H5N1 is an avian flu. It is a different strain from H1N1 (swine flu).

As I explained over and over again, it's simple basic biology. Furthermore, this fact has been reported numerous times on the news.

H5N1 does not require pigs as an intermediary. It is spread directly from birds to humans via direct contact with their bodily fluids/secretions.

No, they do not, because in that state, even if you'd drink their fluids, it simply won't be able to enter your cells, at least not under normal circumstances.

And it is just as likely, if not more so, that CATS would be a bridge between birds and humans for H5N1.

This shows again that my arguments went completely over your head. Cat's wouldn't work as intermediate, cause they have different type of receptors as well. We can't get cat diseases either.

[TheBoxer]

Originally Posted by Assad

^ She (TheBoxer) is just talking about dead birds or those who have infections or the salvia or droppings of birds... She doesnt understand or chose to deliberately ignore that Muslims dont eat dead or infected birds or their droppings of salvia.

subhanAllah...how these people could pass limits of sanity just for the sake of ''winning'' the argument.

May Allah guide her to Truth.

Care to explain how one is supposed to know a bird is infected with H5N1 if it is not exhibiting symptoms? Do you honestly think that Muslim poultry farmers are not at risk for contracting this disease if their birds become infected?

[TheBoxer]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

The normal condition, refers to the normal methodology for a virus to enter the cell. As I explained quite in detail, this virus is unable to enter our cells trough the mechanisms by which virusus normally enter our cells. the only way they can, is trough freak occurrences or other malfunctions.

Care to explain what the "freak occurrences" or "other malfunctions" were that led to the infection of humans and cats after coming into contact with infected birds?

Just because it gets in your body, doesn't mean it can enter your cells.

People and cats have become ill and DIED from H5N1. Sure, if you have a kick-*** immune system, the virus might not be given a chance to infect cells, but that is a freak occurrence. H5N1 is an influenza virus and it does not require an intermediary like pigs.

No not at all. Let me quote their wording:

Most human cases of H5N1 virus infection are thought to have occurred as a result of direct contact with sick or dead infected poultry.

But in teh few cases where they have actually with certainty (rather then trough speculation) established the cause, a pig was intermediate.

What are you talking about?

Let me quote:

Extensive studies of the human cases [of H5N1] determined that direct contact with diseased poultry was the source of infection. (Source)

Avian influenza viruses do not normally infect humans. However, there have been instances of certain highly pathogenic strains causing severe respiratory disease in humans. In most cases, the people infected had been in close contact with infected poultry or with objects contaminated by their faeces. (Source)

As I explained over and over again, it's simple basic biology. Furthermore, this fact has been reported numerous times on the news.

Yes, very simple. H5N1, an avian influenza virus, can be transmitted from birds (wild and poultry) to humans and cats. This virus is HIGHLY PATHOGENIC. The only reason it hasn't become a pandemic is because the virus has trouble transmitting from human to human. In order to control outbreaks, poultry must be vaccinated and many times culled.

No, they do not, because in that state, even if you'd drink their fluids, it simply won't be able to enter your cells, at least not under normal circumstances.

Are you denying the SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH that proves body fluids spread the disease?

This shows again that my arguments went completely over your head. Cat's wouldn't work as intermediate, cause they have different type of receptors as well. We can't get cat diseases either.

Little do you know about veterinary medicine. First of all, humans can become infected with cryptosporidium, a parasite that frequently infects cats and dogs. There are plenty of bacterial diseases that cats can spread to humans via their saliva and feces (like pasteurella and salmonella), and fungal infections like ringworm that humans can easily get. How about leptospirosis? It is rare in cats, but this disease can infect them as well as humans and dogs.

If cats can get H5N1 from birds, and humans can get H5N1from birds, would it really be impossible for this virus to mutate into a form that can infect a human that has come into contact with an infected cat?

[Umm Sufyaan]

subhanAllah...how these people could pass limits of sanity just for the sake of ''winning'' the argument.

ditto...

May Allah guide her to Truth.

ameen :)

[TheBoxer]

Umm Sufyaan,

Seeing as how you are not going to contribute anything intelligent to this discussion except a reiteration of insults (which I don't think are very intelligent anyway), I'm assuming that you concede chickens can be just as filthy as pigs, and can spread diseases to humans as well.

That's been my entire point, and yet it's as if you guys cannot seem to accept the fact that there might be other animals out there (that you eat) which are just as 'dirty' and 'unclean' as pigs.

I'm not denying that the Quran says you shouldn't eat pork. I just don't understand why you are scrambling to find "science" to support such a dietary stipulation. The science you use to prove that pigs can spread infections to humans in their flesh (like helminths) and otherwise (like H1N1) is the very same science to prove that chickens can easily spread infections to humans in their flesh, eggs, and otherwise. Even cows can easily spread infections to humans in their flesh and milk.

It just comes down to proper food handling and cooking, as well as safe farming practices and preventative measures.

[Umm Sufyaan]

^blah, you are what you see in others...

[salamfromrom]

I'm not denying that the Quran says you shouldn't eat pork. I just don't understand why you are scrambling to find "science" to support such a dietary stipulation.

I find myself agreeing with you on this one.

Salam a leikum

[optimist]

Originally Posted by TheBoxer

I'm not denying that the Quran says you shouldn't eat pork. I just don't understand why you are scrambling to find "science" to support such a dietary stipulation.

It is not necessary there should be a science reason for prohibition. May be there could be a science reason we know already or not known to us and may be there will be no science reason at all. It is Allah's instruction to the believers to follow. It is simple. I wonder why for such a simple issue there are two threads on this forum running into many pages!

"Allah has made unlawful for you only that which dies of itself and blood and the flesh of swine and that on which the name of other than God has been invoked. But he who is driven by necessity to eat any of these things, being neither disobedient nor exceeding the limit, them, surely, God is Most Forgiving, Merciful. (16:115)

Under necessity even this is allowed. Please note: in the above verse and the following verse Allah says do not eat from that upon which the name of God has not been mentioned and also dedicated to gods other than Allah. Obviously no one can look for a science reason for this.

"Do not eat from that upon which the name of God has not been mentioned, for it is an abomination. The devils inspire their allies to argue with you; if you obey them, you will be idol worshipers." (6:121)