> Science reasons on pork.

[TheBoxer]

Well, this "scum" believes that chickens are just as filthy as pigs because they carry many deadly diseases, and they also have cannibalistic tendencies and eat and sleep in their own feces. (Anyone who has raised chickens knows this!)

Abdul-Fattah,

Please Google cannibalism in chickens. You may be surprised with the amount of information that pops up on this.

The reason that all food-related diseases are more prevalent in developing and under-developed countries compared to developed ones has to do with education and oversight. In the United States, for example, citizens are educated about hand-washing, proper food handling, and meat temperature requirements. Also, farms that raise animals for human consumption are subject to inspections by the U.S. government.

Cannibalism of one's young occurs in many mammalian species. In pigs, this is also considered an "abnormality" and has been described as a social disease that manifests in some confined pigs.

Diseases from birds vs. pigs:

Salmonellosis: Every year, approx. 40,000 cases are reported in the United States, but because many milder cases are not diagnosed or reported, the actual number of infections may be thirty or more times greater. It is estimated that approximately 400 persons die each year with acute salmonellosis.

Take the time to research some of these other diseases:

Avian influenza: H5N1 and H7N7 viruses
Arizonosis
Histoplasmosis
Cryptococcosis
Cryptosporidiosis
Chlamydiosis
Eastern equine encephalitis
Avian tuberculosis
Colibacillosis

Vs.

Trichinellosis: Between 1997-2001 there were an average of 12 cases per year in the United States. Cases are less commonly associated with pork products and more often associated with eating raw or undercooked wild game meats.
　
Cysticerosis (from taenia solium): In the United States this mainly affects immigrants from Latin America where the disease is endemic. Between 1990-2002 a total of 221 cysticercosis deaths were identified. In the U.S., laws governing feeding practices and inspection of domestic food animals have largely eliminated the problem of tapeworm. By the way, humans can get tapeworms from beef (Taenia saginata), fish (Diphyllobothrium), and rodents (Hymenolepis nana or diminuta).

Brucellosis: Can be spread by cattle, goats, and camels as well as pigs. There are about 100 - 200 cases per year in the United States.

A ten minute Google search is all that is necessary to find out this information.

[Assad]

Swine Flu Genes From Pigs Only, Not Humans or Birds

Swine Flu Genes From Pigs Only, Not Humans or Birds | Wired Science | Wired.com

[Abdul-Fattah]

The reason that all food-related diseases are more prevalent in developing and under-developed countries compared to developed ones has to do with education and oversight. In the United States, for example, citizens are educated about hand-washing, proper food handling, and meat temperature requirements. Also, farms that raise animals for human consumption are subject to inspections by the U.S. government.

I know "why". That's beside the point. My point is that your argument makes no sense for many practical reasons. The why doesn't change that.

Salmonellosis: Every year, approx. 40,000 cases are reported in the United States, but because many milder cases are not diagnosed or reported, the actual number of infections may be thirty or more times greater. It is estimated that approximately 400 persons die each year with acute salmonellosis.

1. Salmonella does not exist exclusively in chickens you can get it from pigs just as easily. so the number of cases does not represent the danger of eating poultry specificly.
2. Also as I said in the previous post, bacteria can only be transmitted by undercooked meat! Blood is also haram, and muslims are supposed to cook their meat well. So given that rule one cannot claim that it is illogical for islam not to allow pork, but to allow poultry.

Take the time to research some of these other diseases:

I could suggest that you do your own research a bit more thourogly:

Avian influenza: H5N1 and H7N7 viruses

Under normal circumstances people cannot contract this virus directly from birds. In the cases where they actually discovered the source of the epidemic, there was a pig which served as intermediate. As I explained in my previous post humans can generally not get virusses from other animals except pigs. something to do with cell-intrusion.

Arizonosis

This is actually the salmonella again, just a specific variation. Are you trying to make the list look longer or did you just copy some list without actually knowing what the names stand for?

Histoplasmosis, Cryptococcosis

Both are fungus infections. Granted, both fungi are often carried by birds. And yes, humans can become infected from inhaling the spores released by bird-droppings. I've never heard of a case of getting it from eating bird-meat directly though.

Cryptosporidiosis

This parasite as most parasites, is not specific to any specie. You don't generally get this from eating meat either. In fact, you're much more likely to get it from swimming in a lake then from eating any animal for that matter. And as I said in my previous post, pigs in average have a much larger quantity of parasites in them.

Chlamydiosis, Avian tuberculosis

Both respiratory diseases, both bacteria. I don't really breath in my food. But even if I would, like I said about the salmonella bacteria, only undercooked meat can transmit bacteria.

Eastern equine encephalitis

Oh, I didn't know mosquito's qualified as "poultry". Again an odd choice to put on your little list here. I mean sure a chicken could get bitten by a mosquito just as well. But as it is it's already rare getting this virus from a mosquito directly, the chances of getting it from a chicken that was bitten by a mosquito is even smaller. And any other animal on your farm could just as easily get bitten by that same mosquito. Also, again there's the issue of cell intrusion. Once the virus enters a chicken, it would be unlikely for the chicken to pass it on to human due to their different cell-receptors.

A ten minute Google search is all that is necessary to find out this information.

Yes, apearently it can! And another 10 more minutes (along with some common sense) is enough to refute all of it all over again. Isn't google just swell ^_^

[salman]

@ummy sufiyan

sister, regardless of fact that we hate her due to her kufr, falsehood views she promotes and her views against Islam, it does not mean we can insult her. insha'Allah, like I told you before sabroun, her ban is not very far away.

on topic

bro salam hit the nail when he said it does not matter whether there are any scientific reasons or not. It is Allah Azz wa Jal who forbade it for us; thus, that is suffecient for us. Obviously not saying that we do not mention reasons or wisdom behind ruling if it is there. However, the main and foremost reason is that it is from our Creator and He knows what is best for us; this is our methodology and how we give da'wah. We hear and obey and if the believers of god-nongod-mangod idea do not want to follow their Lord then they are more than welcome to be among the losers and get what they deserve on the Last Day.

[TheBoxer]

My argument is that pork is no more unclean, unhealthy, or unsafe than any of the other meats humans commonly consume.


All of the diseases Muslims commonly point to as legitimate reasons for banning pork can be caused by other animals as well. There are far more diseases humans can contract from live chickens and turkeys as well as from poultry meat than they could contract from live pigs and pork. Chickens commonly live in very unhygienic environments and many times partake in cannibalism just like some pigs.


Many food-borne diseases, whether they be from cows, chickens, pigs, or fish can be easily prevented by following certain guidelines in animal care, hand-washing, food-handling, and cooking.


In the end, the only “legitimate” reason Muslims have for banning pork and not poultry is that the Quran forbids the consumption of swine-flesh. What I don't understand is why Muslims feel it is necessary to back up such a restriction with science when the very same science shows chickens and turkeys to be just as "bad."



~TheBoxer

[salman]

^can you actually prove that with some scientific back up or you are going to just rant?

[TheBoxer]

Originally Posted by salman

^can you actually prove that with some scientific back up or you are going to just rant?

The simple fact that there are FAR MORE diseases that humans can contract from chickens and turkeys versus what they can contract from pigs means that there is a higher likelihood of a person getting sick from handling those birds than if they were handling pigs.

Other than this new swine flu, the only way to contract diseases from pigs is through the fecal-oral route or eating unproperly cooked meats.

With chickens and turkeys, you can get a disease simply from breathing the air of their environment as well as the fecal-oral route. You can get diseases from eating unproperly cooked eggs as well as unproperly cooked meats. So, there are far greater opportunities for someone to get a disease from a chicken then there is for someone to get sick from a pig.

Simple common sense, salman.

~TheBoxer

[salman]

^common sense also tells me that you have already repeated this thrice yet you bring nothing to support it: no scientific data or stats or an authoritative people saying this. Niether you replied to bro Abdul Fatteh.

So after all this, common sense tells me that you are just ranting and thus this will be the last time it will be allowed.

Our methodology is not based on personal deficient intellect so to us it does not matter what science says or if there are any evidence in support of prohibition. In fact, it will be you secular liberalists who will be in trouble at the end of the day and not us. However, we do have problem with your corrupt analysis and throwing around as if it has any value in real world.

[TheBoxer]

Originally Posted by salman

^common sense also tells me that you have already repeated this thrice yet you bring nothing to support it: no scientific data or stats or an authoritative people saying this. Niether you replied to bro Abdul Fatteh.

So after all this, common sense tells me that you are just ranting and thus this will be the last time it will be allowed.

Our methodology is not based on personal deficient intellect so to us it does not matter what science says or if there are any evidence in support of prohibition. In fact, it will be you secular liberalists who will be in trouble at the end of the day and not us. However, we do have problem with your corrupt analysis and throwing around as if it has any value in real world.

I wasn't in the mood to write a science paper since Muslims are never required to back up their claims with objective, neutral scientific evidence...however, here we go:

In the United States, there are an estimated 2 million cases each year of campylobacter jejuni. It's principal vehicles? Poultry and unpasteurized milk. That means CHICKENS, TURKEYS, and COWS.

There are an estimated 1.5 million cases each year of Salmonella sp. It's principal vehicles? Eggs, poultry, beef, pork, and produce. That means CHICKENS, TURKEYS, COWS, PIGS, and FRUIT & VEGETABLES (typically contaminated by animals or humans).

There are an estimated 60,000 cases each year of E.coli. It's principal vehicles? Cattle (handling) and beef, produce, water (recreational and drinking). Do you know what that means? COWS and FRUITS & VEGETABLES and WATER (probably contaminated by animals)

Oh, and Salmonella Enteritidis? It colonizes ovarian tissues of POULTRY and contaminates the internal contents of EGGS.

The prevalence of Campylobacter in manure: 89% prevalence of beef cattle at slaughter and 80 - 100% prevalence (depending on the flock) of chickens and turkeys at slaughter. Sheep also have a very high prevalence. (From a Pitt.edu presentation by Michael P. Doyle, Center for Food Safety - College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, of CDC reports and other official documentation regarding high incidence of food-borne illnesses.)

In the US, more cases of salmonellosis are linked to other foods (e.g, poultry, dairy products, beef) than pork probably because the fear of Trichinella encourages people to more thoroughly cook pork.(From "Salmonella as a Foodborne Pathogen in Pork" by W.E. Morgan Morrow, Dept of Animal Science North Car. State Uni. and Julie Funk, Dept. of Veterinary Preventative Medicine Ohio State Uni.)

If you thoroughly cook your meat (whether it is pork, beef, or poultry) and practice good food safety (hand-washing, proper storage, etc.) then you will greatly reduce your risk of contracting a disease no matter what it is contaminated with.

However, birds and cattle present numerous other diseases to humans that are spread through other methods other than just their meat. Eggs and milk also can spread disease if not properly cooked. Humans do not consume pig milk or pig ova. So, that is an additional avenue of contracting disease.

Birds carry numerous respiratory illnesses that are dangerous to humans. For example, chicken farmers and poultry processing workers are at risk of developing allergic alveolitis and contracting New Castles Disease. And so far, we know of only one prevalent disease that may spread via respiratory from pigs: the swine flu. Well, chickens can carry their own version of the flu: avian influenza, not to mention the other respiratory diseases birds can spread to humans.

And I'm not going to mention the disease spread through feces. Yes, pigs can spread diseases through feces but so can birds. Campylobacteriosis is just one of them.

Since Americans thoroughly cook their pork more often than they do their poultry, it is more likely that you are going to get salmonella from poultry than pork in the U.S. That's why there are so few cases of trich. in the U.S. and new tapeworm diagnosis are usually from Latin American immigrants and not Americans who have eaten American pork products.

Is that enough information for you, salman?

~TheBoxer

[Assad]

Every kind of meat or even vegetable contain diesease and bacterias!! Recent studies suggest the leafy vegetables contain many harmful bacterias which are cause of a number of common dieases and hence their consumption should be in moderation.

But pig exclusively contains many extremely harmful diesease and is raised in an unhygeine environment , being fed on dead pig kids. Now its all common sense but since TheBoxer is anti-common sense, she would find it hard to grasp all this.

I pray to Allah to guide her to sanity first before guiding her to Islam.