> Sunni Response Refuting Shaykh Nuh Keller: Did Salaf Practice Ta'weel?

[salamfromrom]

Salam

The following is from The-Call-to-Monotheism:

For example, we believe that Allah has affirmed a hand for himself, but that in no way means that God has a body.


Al Imam al-Dhahabi says:

"Why do you say?: A hand in reality is this bodily limb'? Rather, a 'hand' is homonym, and it is in accordance with, and of the same category of what it is attributed to. Therefore, if the thing described therewith is an animal then the hand would be a bodily limb. If it were was statue made of brass and stone, the hand would also be of brass and stone. If it were an image drawn on the wall, the hand would be a drawing. If it were that of which neither there is a like, nor it is a body, the hand would also be that of which neither there is a like, nor it is a body"

He also says:

"If it is said: In its conventional usage, a hand only refers to the limb that we all know of' We would say in reply: Similarly, in conventional usage, knowledge, hearing and seeing are only accidents that subsist in bodies. Where, then, is the difference?" (Ithbat al-Yad lilLahi subhanah p. 42-44 by al-Imam al-Dhahabi, cited here)


Indeed, the same logic applies to the face and shin.
Allah's Face is not a part of Allah. Allah's Face, Hands, Shin, etc. are not different parts of Allah. They are not separate from Him. Thus to say that Allah's Face will not perish is just as good as saying that His Self will not perish either since God's Face is an eternal attribute that is not separate from God.

Ibn Kathir is basically saying that God is using the attribute of Face in order to refer to His Essence in this context. For even if God said that everything will perish except His Hand, it will convey the same meaning for Gods attributes are not separate from him.

Source: http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/re...m_dawagandist_

So if the above is correct (is it?) then the matters seems to be settled.

Salam

[salman]

:

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

So as best as I can understand, the Shin can refer to 2 things:

1 - The Shin of the people on the Day of Judgement
2 - The Shin of Allah(swt) when he appears in some form (so maybe He
will have a shin like us?)

akhee, your last point is bit misleading. What do you mean "He will have a Shin like us"? Do you mean His Shin is like (similar) our shin? Or do you mean He has Shin like we have shin.

Let me briefly repeat to myself to clarify the confusion or misunderstanding:

As I mentioned, the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah differ about whose's shin this ayah is talking about: Allah or people. Those who collaborated this with the hadith of the Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) said that this ayah is from the Attributes of Allah and shin here refers to Allah's Shin. On the other hand, the other group of scholars said that the shin here refers to people's shin and they reached this conclusion based on the language.

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

Brother, please enlighten me if you may, so does Allah(swt) have a shin or not? And how are we to interpret this?

let me quote you what Shaykh Haitham Hamdan said at Multaqa:

The attribute of the shin is a matter of dispute among the scholars of Ahlussunnah. For the following reasons:

1) The verse: “The Day that the Shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able”, does not attribute the shin to Allah SWT.

2) The Hadeeth that affirms the attribute to Allah SWT is of questionable authenticity, even though it was narrated in Bukhari.

So this issue is a matter of dispute among the scholars of Ahlussunnah. Some confirmed the attribute, others didn't.

Wallahu A’lam

Multaqa Ahl al-Hadeeth - View Single Post - Did the Sahabah Take the Shin Metaphorically?

Allahu A'lam (Allah knows best)

[salamfromrom]

Salam


I think I misunderstood the context and I made a mistake. I thought that if '' Allah will appear to the people in some form'' I thought it may be that Allah(swt) might come to them in a form which includes a shin or something like that, but now I see that's probably close to anthropomorphism (May Allah protect me from that!) and therefore blatantly wrong.

Thank you for the explanations, I also think the call-to-monotheism explanation was very well explained particularly the following:

Allah's Face is not a part of Allah. Allah's Face, Hands, Shin, etc. are not different parts of Allah. They are not separate from Him. Thus to say that Allah's Face will not perish is just as good as saying that His Self will not perish either since God's Face is an eternal attribute that is not separate from God.

Salam bro

[salman]

^akhee, believing that Allah Ta'ala has two Hands, two Eyes, Face, Shin, etc., befitting Him is not anthropomorphism. Anthropomorphism is comparing Allah's Attributes to His creation; for example, saying that His Hands are like my hands, His Eyes are like my eyes, etc. The former is aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah, and the latar one is kufr.

yes, it is true that brother Bassam's points were very good.

Allahu A'lam

[salamfromrom]

salam

I officially suck at expressing my thoughts :P . What I meant to say (lol) was that from the context , I imagined that it would be possible for Allah(swt) to appear in some sort of a material form which could include a shin like ours or (when all humanity has been gathered in the akhira). That's what I meant when I said that I was wrong, because that would be antropomorphism. Right? :P . I am going to try to abstain from these types of discussions about the nature of Allah(swt) because they're out of my league.

Salam

[salman]

wa'alaykum as-salam

yeh, you're correct, it is anthropomorphism and belief of kufr. Allah Ta'ala will appear to us on akhira in a form that befits Him.

akhee, it is not advised or encouraged that lay people dwell into these kinds of discussions, unless you want to pursue higher Islamic studies, because they are already upon their fitrah and correct 'aqeedah, allhamdulillah.