> Refuting Misguided Muslims (Quran Miracles)

[salamfromrom]

Salam

We often go and refute false claims made by non-muslims on islam, but we are often ignorant of our own brothers' false interpretations of the ayats. The effect of this is far reaching, weakening some people's iman and strengthening the disbelievers' resolve.

I have to say, many of the popular interpretations which spawned from the ''Quranic Miracles'' trend are blatantly false. And totally provably so.

Case in Point:

Their Interpretation asserts that the Mountains act as pegs/stabilisers thereby preventing earthquakes and other seismic activity.

From a scientific viewpoint, this reasoning is wrong, because these earthquakes rather take place in mountainous areas, the effect of mountains is actually the opposite of what the Miracles people claim. They claim this even though all the scientific proofs in Plate Tectonics clearly prove them wrong. There is not one peer-reviewed scientific paper which claims that mountains provide any type of stability for the earth, in fact , the opposite is claimed. (I have researched this issue in depth)

What i'm asking you brothers is somewhat complicated. Because I do not know any arabic, it is impossible for me to interpret the texts directly. I have read the english tafsir of Ibn kathir and many others which seem to explain that mountains keep the earth firm but this view is not correct. Therefore the Qur'an cannot contain error thus by implication the commonly accepted tafsirs are incorrect on this issue. This is really a daunting task, but if any of you might kindly provide me with the possible alternative interpretations of the relevant words from the original arabic which do not contradict scientific discoveries please do so. We must weed out the erroneous interpretations and clarify things for people of weak iman (me included) so that they dont fall into error and kufr and mislead others.


The ayats in question are the following:


21:31
16:15
31:10

Are they meant to be taken literally ?

Salam

[Assad]

Brother you need to do a bit more of research on this area. This may help:

Function of the Mountains

Think of the Earth like an onion, made up of many different layers (1). The outer layer is called the crust (2) and the crust is much thinner than any of the other layers.(3). It float on the mantle below the earth's crust. (4)

Thus Allah has fixed mountains on earth crust to prevent its fast movement. Hence, If there were no mountains then the thin earth's crust float fastly & we would having earthquake in every minute of our life. Thus:

“The mountains play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth". (5)

This information is also mention in the following verses:

"He created the heavens [sky] without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs."
[Al-Quran 31:10]

And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: That they may receive guidance."

[Al-Quran 21:31]

Allah is showing proves again and again so that man will believe that the Noble Quran is the pure word of Allah.


(1)http://www.scienceweb.org/burgess/geology/origin.html
(2)http://www.edu.pe.ca/southernkings/intro.htm
(3) Earth's Interior
(4) http://www.edu.pe.ca/southernkings/plate3.htm
(5)Geological Concept of Mountains pp. 44-45

-----
Source: Mountains prevent the earth from shaking - The Noble Quran claimed it and Science confirmed it!
http://www.geocities.com/thetruebook/FunctionoftheMountains.htm

[Al Habeshi]

Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem,

as-Salaamu 'Alaykum.

I noticed above people are using the word earthquake. Is there a difference in meanining between the arabic word used Tamīda in 31.10 translated as shake for example and Zilzaalah normally translated as earthquake?

Br.al-Habeshi

[Qatada]

asalaam alaikum


bro habeshi;

تميد = to sway

That's what it says on;
Text and Web - Google Translate


Whereas Zalzala i think means 'a heavy shaking' or 'convulse' [To violently shake or agitate].

[salamfromrom]

Salam

I have already researched Dr Zaghlool's theory and it has no basis at all. Just check his sources/links. Even the ones that are still online make no mention of his claims. There is not one peer reviewed scientific paper which claims this. In fact, plate tectonics says exactly the opposite. The mountains are the source of much of the earthquakes, that is why most earthquakes are in areas with mountains. mountain belts occur where plates are pressing against one another.

The following should clear things up quite nicely:
Source: Geology: property of mountains, earthquake shocks, plate tectonics theory

Answered by Dr T. Bell

Expertise: I can answer questions regarding surface earth processes and the chemical transformations that sediments and rocks undergo with burial. I can also answer questions regarding deep time, the evolution of the elements, and the last 4.5 billion years of earth history. I specialize in metallic ore forming processes, the major geologic time periods when they were produced and what they tell us about the evolution of our planet. Learn more about my professional interests at Stratamodel.com.

Experience in the area
I am a professional consulting geologist with a background in the petroleum, mining, environmental, and geotechnical industries with over 25 years of experience.

Education/Credentials
Ph.D., Geology, University of California at Berkeley, 1984 M.A., Geology, University of California at Berkeley, 1980 B.S., Geology, San Jose State University, 1978
*****************************

Question
QUESTION: Dear Dr.Thomas Bell,


I have some knowledge on plate tectonics theory, but the following statement about the property of mountains that a friend of mine told me confused me:


"Since mountains (from continental collisions) have extensions on the surface (reliefs) and under the ground (crustal roots), they clench different plates of the earth
together like a peg. The Earth's crust
consists of plates that are in constant
motion. This clenching property of
mountains prevents shocks to a great
extent, by fixing the earth's crust,
which has a very movable structure."


So, could you tell me if that statement is right or wrong (with explanations please) ?




Sincerely


ANSWER: Anissa,

I have never heard such an hypothesis proposed before. I am not sure what your friend means by "shocks". If he or she is referring to earthquake shocks, young mountain chains are among the most seismically active places on the planet.

The crust is extremely thin even where thickened into mountain ranges compared to the areal extent of the oceanic and continental plates. The additional strength that crustal thickening might add to a plate is relatively small relative to the underlying forces in the mantle that are driving plate motion. Mountain ranges can be the very site of continental rifting and their fragments can ultimately be spread across more than one continent.

A well known example of rifted mountain ranges is the ancient Calodenides. This ancient mountain range, now spread across northeast North America, Scotland, and Scandinavia, has a major ocean basin separating its pieces. So much for the idea that mountain ranges 'clench' a continental plate together.

Without completely understanding your friend's thesis, I can't completely confirm or refute it but if I get his general idea, it seems unlikely.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Dear Dr.Thomas Bell,



Thank you for answering to my question.

I asked my friend for more precisions. So, here are the precisions:



==============

He thinks that mountains ranges (from continental collisions) act exactly like pegs; that's to say, according to him, they really and litteraly clench continents together to fix them both together (just like a peg clenching two woodden plates together in order that the latters can be fixed together).

For instance: Continent "A" collides with continent "B" , forming a mountains range "C" between them both.
So, thanks to the underlying 'root' of the range called "C",
continents "A" and "B" are clenched together(ie, pegged to each other).



And thanks to that alleged fixing effect of these mountains,
the Earth's crust is prevented from sliding over the magma stratum or among its plates. According to him, this fixing effect of mountains is described by isostasy.

regarding "shocks", he meant earhquakes.

============



Thus, since you can now understand my friend's thesis, could you completely refute or confirm it, please?

Answer
Anissa,

As I said in my first post, earthquakes tend to be common in mountain ranges particularly relatively young ones like the Hindu Kush and Himalayas. So this part of his hypothesis is contradicted by the facts.

The thickness of continental crust is probably irrelevant to 'pegging' plates together at least in terms of preventing them from being separated again. The increased shear or tensile strength of thickened crust is probably inconsequential when compared to the stress induced by convecting mantle material acting on the base of the crust at the continental scale.

The scientific method is being turned on its head here. If someone proposes an hypothesis to explain some phenomenon, it is incumbent upon them to find evidence of its validity or at least do some order of magnitude calculations to suggest the hypothesis is reasonable. Perhaps your friend has more than just an opinion for the validity of this hypothesis. Evidence would be far more persuasive.

This is the consensous of all the geologists. There is no serious alternative view at all.



This is what I meant when I said that the common interpretation (function of mountains is to stabilize earth) is wrong (as it is explained) because it is contradicted by the facts so we should not interpret the ayat as some sort of scientific statement, rather it probably is meant to inspire awe at the creative power of Allah(swt) who can create seemingly immovable and firm objects like mountains which are relatively stable even though they are so huge, so the mountain doesnt (normally) shake thus making it useful for people who travel through the mountain passes.

I don't think it's meant to be taken as a a scientific statement.

I'm sure you brothers are aware of the imagery employed in the Qur'an.? This is probably just another case of imagery where people have attempted to interpret it literally, thus destroying the meaning , therefore opening up the quran to misinterpretation and criticism.

Salam

[salamfromrom]

Salam

Here is a possible different interpretation of the mountains ayats.

Source: The Mountain Problem - The Century in Review

Almost everything on the Earth's surface is eroded, worn down by time and weather, turned to soil and sand. The rocks of mountains, too, are softened and crumbled into sediment, carried downhill by streams, slides, and glaciers, sifted into the oceans. Yet after billions of years, the mountains remain.(remember the ayat about FIRM MOUNTAINS) What keeps building mountains is not obvious.

I'll provide more of this view soon. :-)


P.S. It is as important to me to disproove the false quranic interpretations as it is for you more knowleadgeable brothers to disproove the false aqeedah of the deviants (asharis, etc). This is why I take these things so seriously. We should not spread falsehood.

Salam

[salman]

^as-salamau 'alaykum

akhee, I want you to be careful of what you say. You're not qualified to utter some of your comments. I don't agree with some of the views on scientific miracles, but I'm sure the description of mountains in the Qur'an is pretty clear and not metaphorical.

[salamfromrom]

A brother from another forum explained things in the following manner:

Whether the verse mean that or not but lets make it clear what is scientifically true or not.

One type of mountains (fold mountains) are formed by continental collision, for example Himalayas range. When these land masses collied they compresses the earth on pressure areas which makes the earth harder in those areas and folds and lifts the layers until they are strong enough to take the pressure from these colliding land masses.





You can do a simple experiment at home to understand better what is happening. You can take a normal carpet and push it as hard as you can against the wall, it will start to fold and it will reach it at a point that you can't push it any more further as those folds will start to absorb your pushing pressure more and more. If you remove those folds then you will be able to push it more with the same pressure.

Similar things are happening at the Himalayas, it absorbs the push by Indo-Australian plate. This doesn't mean that earthquakes won't happen or mountain range will become inactive seismically, because that depends on other number of factors like how much pressure Indo-Australian plate is exerting, but the whole land area becomes relatively stable since land at Himalayas can take more pressure now due to metamorphic activity than before.

Another type of mountains with very deep roots provide another kind of stability for example:
Quote:

Salam.

[salamfromrom]

Salam

Ok maybe I should explain myself better. The ''Quranic Miracles'' Crowd's interpretation which claims that the mountains prevent earthquakes (in the sense that they understand it) is wrong. The Ayats are not wrong. Their interpretation is.

The Mountains do not look like pegs. Some mountains (there are different types) may act like weights and pegs in certain circumstances, but they are not peg-shaped.

Their claim that mountainous areas suffer the least amount of earthquakes is wrong. The opposite is true.

Mountains are created by the impact of tectonic plates, as the brother above mentioned, just like if you pushed a carpet towards the wall, and it climbs up the wall, and that might act as a some sort of barrier and slows down the moving of the tectonic plates to some degree, but their claim that mountains are pegs that ''hold the earth together'' couldn't be farther from the truth.

Sorry if I sounded forceful in my previous post, but I hate it when people try to subordinate the Noble Qur'an to an everchanging science. Not only do these people (im sure with the best intentions, but that doesnt make it right) not check their facts before making up their theories and popularizing them, but they do not change their opinions even when the facts clearly contradict them. This could be called dellusion, which is anti-islamic.

So to sum things up: The mountains truly are firm, but not in the sense they think of them as, the mountains could be thought of as limiting seismic activity, but not eliminating it at all, because most seismic activity occurs in mountaineous areas (but it could be argued that without mountains this seismic activity could be much worse because the tectonic plates would keep moving).

So the ayats have absolutely no error , but they interpret them in an erroneous way thus misguiding people who hold their view to be true.

akhee, I want you to be careful of what you say. You're not qualified to utter some of your comments.

I did not say ''this is exactly what the quran means'' I just said ''Here is a possible different interpretation of the mountains ayats.''

I do not know the original arabic, that's why I asked if someone could help in ellucidating the possible alternative meanings of the words in the mountain ayat.

For example, in reading the english interpretation, one would most likely think of the Mountains as protectors against earthquakes and the likes, but the word used is closer to ''Shaking/moving'' which might not necessarily refer to earthquakes at all. It's common knowledge that the tectonic plates are in constant motion, and when they hit eachother and produce mountains, the plates slow down because the mountains act like a break which slows down the moving.

Salam

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum

First off all, there are indeed allot of alleged miracles in the qur'an which are far fetched. We should refute those false miracles, because when people read these false miracles of the Qur'an and find their flaws, most of them will probably overlook the genuine miracles of the Qur'an.

However I do not consider this specific miracle to be false, as far as I know it goes hand in hand perfectly with what science says.

In fact, plate tectonics says exactly the opposite. The mountains are the source of much of the earthquakes, that is why most earthquakes are in areas with mountains.

That's inaccurate, mountains never "cause" earthquakes. Tectonic movement causes earthquakes, and mountains are a by-product of those same tectonic movements. So both the formation of the mountains, as well as the earthquakes are caused by tectonic movement. However, all the energy of the collision that is used to forming mountains will not be used to form earthquakes, so the formation and growth of mountains acts as a buffer to soften the collisions of tectonic plates.

Let my try and explain this in a simple way. If you put a piece of paper in front or you, and place your hand on one end, and push towards the other end, most likely you'll push the paper forward. If by pushing it it hits another piece of paper, it will cause a (small) shock. If you continue pushing, one of three things can happen.

1. You'll push both piece of paper in the same direction even further
2. One of the two pieces will go under the other
3. Both pieces will curve upwards and form a "mountain" upwards.

Now consider if in all three cases you pushed with the same force, in which of those three cases is the shock felt on the pieces of paper the hardest and on which is it the smallest? In cases 2 and 3 you should feel almost no shock at all, since there is no collision. And in those two cases there is formation of mountains. In case one there will be no mountain, but there will be a direct collision and the shock will be the hardest.

The article you linked to attempts to refute this claim with the following quote:

As I said in my first post, earthquakes tend to be common in mountain ranges particularly relatively young ones like the Hindu Kush and Himalayas. So this part of his hypothesis is contradicted by the facts.

However that argument has causality upside down! It is not the case that these areas have high seismic activity because of the newly formed mountains. Instead it is the other way around. This area has newly formed mountains because of it's high seismic activity. If these mountains would not have formed, then the seismic activity would have been even more intense.

(but it could be argued that without mountains this seismic activity could be much worse because the tectonic plates would keep moving).

I think you're selling them short. The reason young mountains still have a lot of seismic activity is because they are yet to small to function properly. As time progresses, and the mountains grow taller/heavier, the seismic activity will reduce. Since the more mass a mountain has, the more force the tectonic plates will have to provide in order to cause momentum.

The Mountains do not look like pegs. Some mountains (there are different types) may act like weights and pegs in certain circumstances, but they are not peg-shaped.
So to sum things up: The mountains truly are firm, but not in the sense they think of them as, the mountains could be thought of as limiting seismic activity

Actually they do, scientists call this the "root" of a mountain. You can find an in depth article about that here: http://www.geology.wisc.edu/courses/g112/mtn_roots.html

I don't know, and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.