> Differences in approach to Islam between Optimist and Sunni Muslims

[salman]

Originally Posted by Haqekka'

Optimist-do you reject sahih hadeeths?If you do:may Allah SUT guide you!

yes, he does reject sahih ahadith. He did reject one in this very thread.

[quote=optimist;12943]

Wa alaikumussalam,

Originally Posted by optimist

I never called for rejection of all hadiths.

yes, you only reject those which don't work with your intellect. Thus, your asl remains rejecting all ahadith - because if all ahadith wouldn't make sense to you then you would reject all of them.

Originally Posted by optimist

do you believe in Quran or in this hadith because it is labeled as sahih?

as we have told you on numerous occasions before - rejecting ahadith because they contradict with Qur'an cannot be taken as face value fact and applied to every single hadith by every single person. Many times there appears to be a contradiction but in reality there is not any and those who have knowledge are able to identify it unlike people like you who relay on their intellect. Care to tell us which ayah of the Qur'an contradicts with the hadith of Adam (alayhi as-salam) being tall?

Originally Posted by optimist

@ brother salman, you are misunderstanding me and my intention. I will answer you later.

no, I am not misunderstanding you and you don't need to reply me. You have spent quite a few months here and your aqeedah and manhaj is very clear to us. You are glad that you are still here despite you making mockery of Sunnah of the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam) on more than one occassion. I thought you would learn few things and were kind to you but you are simply another blind follower of those who follow their intellect. You never showed any signs of sincerity despite the fact that your serious errors and ramifications of your statements were pointed out on many occasions.

Originally Posted by optimist

I agree some translators have translated the word أَيَّامٍ mentioned in the Quran as "periods".

stick to you math-hab and don't saway around and relay on straws to prove your position. So what if translators have translated as days? The linguistic meaning is clear and we know that linguistically ayaam could mean any amount of period. What happened to sticking to original linguistic meaning instead of relaying on translations? Aren't these humans as well who are not free from mistakes? Or does this criteria only apply when it comes to ahadith when you forget that the Qur'an also come through same people and they used exact similar science and ways to preserve the Qur'an?

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

For Allah's love, this is deen al-Islam we are talking about and not a fairy tale for which we can say whatever we want.

Salam,

You are unnecessarily using harsh words. I am was talking in a polite way with supporting verses from quran.

YES our deen is not a fairy tale. It will be a fairy tale if the height of Adam could be subject matter of discussion in Deen. You will read about 90 feet men only in fairy tales. I challege you to show me any verse in the Quran which describes such unimportant details. Did you not notice, how quran, while discussing the people of the cave, not even informing us how many people were there and how long they stayed in the cave. Have you ever thought why Quran did not inform us such details? Naturally our first curiosity will be how many years they slept and how many people were there. But why Allah prohibited us from getting involved in such discussions?

“Enter not therefore into controversies concerning them except on a matter that is clear nor consult any of them about (the affair of) the Sleepers”. (18:22)

Just think why did Quran give this direction. THINK.

Just in case you didn't know many scholars explained that 90 ft tall could refer to their height in jannah.

Well, still only a possibility!!!! Right? Those who explain the hadith in this way are not fully certain what does the hadith actually mean!! Right? Is this what is supposed to be the teaching of Islam? Wherein in the hadith it is mentioned so? It is just a convenient way of explaining something we do not know. If so, what is the relevance of this hadith? Just to create confusion without giving us a clear understanding?

Wassalam

[optimist]

stick to you math-hab and don't saway around and relay on straws to prove your position. So what if translators have translated as days? The linguistic meaning is clear and we know that linguistically ayaam could mean any amount of period. What happened to sticking to original linguistic meaning instead of relaying on translations?

Brother salman, actually you did not get the point. Sister told me "Six days means six periods of time". It was in reponse to this comment I said that, though some translators have translated as "sex periods", based on the majority of translators and also based on Imam Muslim Hadith no.6707 it can not be said to be "periods", but it must be referring to Days. You did not get the point.

wassalam

[Abdul-Fattah]

Originally Posted by Haqekka'

I still remember ARAMCO scandal:
Giant human skeleton found in Saudi Arabia

Selam aleykum
Sorry to inform you, you've fallen victem to a hoax:


Solving the mystery of the Giant Skeleton

[optimist]

************

[Aayah]

These are very dangerous statements about rejecting the Hadeeth of the Sunnah.

I am sure you already know about these verses:

يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓاْ أَطِيعُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِى ٱلۡأَمۡرِ مِنكُمۡ*ۖ فَإِن تَنَـٰزَعۡتُمۡ فِى شَىۡءٍ۬ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى ٱللَّهِ وَٱلرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمۡ تُؤۡمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلۡيَوۡمِ ٱلۡأَخِرِ*ۚ ذَٲلِكَ خَيۡرٌ۬ وَأَحۡسَنُ تَأۡوِيلاً (٥٩)
O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end. (59)

[An-Nisa]




مَّن يُطِعِ ٱلرَّسُولَ فَقَدۡ أَطَاعَ ٱللَّهَ*ۖ وَمَن تَوَلَّىٰ فَمَآ أَرۡسَلۡنَـٰكَ عَلَيۡهِمۡ حَفِيظً۬ا (٨٠)
Whoso obeyeth the messenger hath obeyed Allah, and whoso turneth away: We have not sent thee as a warder over them. (80)

[An-Nisa]

[al-boriqee]

Since Salman dedicated this thread with such a label and I believe that the purpose here is to help or administer some kind of theological detox program for brother optimist, i believe it is befitting to mention some of the pitfalls in this thread of optimist that Salman has labelled as nonsense.


Nonsense #1:

Originally Posted by optimist

Wa alaikumussalam,

I never called for rejection of all hadiths.

Sister, when a hadith tells you The Earth and Adam were created in SEVEN Days (Muslim Hadith No. 6707) and at the same time when you read in the Quran the entire Universe was created in SIX Days (Qur'an 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 32:4), do you believe in Quran or in this hadith

In the hadeeth he quoted, the phrase" the earth and adam" can be understood as the rest of creation (samawaat wal ard) and Adam. In the Quranic ayaah, the phrase "universe" implies the same (samawaat wal ard).

What the Qur'an is signifying is the creation of everything in our known existence in 6 days. In the hadeeth, it is signifying the creation of everything in our known existence in 6 days and then adding to that, Adam as the last one to be created on the 7th.

98 percent of hi nonsensical conclusion are a result of simple ignorance whether it be of arabic, history, or hadeeth sciences, or its explanations, or the Quran itself and its principles of understanding. If it is not rooted in the ignorance of these factors, then it is rooted in warped intellectualism that eminates from the kuffar in general (meaning the logic that they use, which is really illogic, is the same logic he employs)

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by optimist

Wassalam,

I agree some translators have translated the word أَيَّامٍ mentioned in the Quran as "periods". But majority of translators have translated it as "days" I quote below the relevant verses from the Quran;

خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ
(7:54)

إِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ
(10:3)

وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ
(11:7)

اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ
(32:4)


Well, how do you explain the following hadith if it is just "periods"?

"Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday;the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i. e. between afternoon and night." (Muslim 6707)

PS: Jews & Christians also believe Adam was created on Friday

wassalam

the same is applied. the days mentioned by Abu Hurayrah can be days applied to Allah. What is the issue here, the mere mentioning of days. It could be that these days were different epochs in contrast to Allah wherewith Allah labels them into these names and later on became the names of our days. SO what.

p.s. jews in christians also believe that Adam was created with Allah's hands.

Islamic theology is not suppose to be EVERYTHING DISCONNECTED from their beliefs, rather Islamci theology is to ensure that what was authentic from them remains and what is baatil is clarified and destroyed and the true version revealed.

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by Aayah

These are very dangerous statements about rejecting the Hadeeth of the Sunnah.

I am sure you already know about these verses:

يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓاْ أَطِيعُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِى ٱلۡأَمۡرِ مِنكُمۡ*ۖ فَإِن تَنَـٰزَعۡتُمۡ فِى شَىۡءٍ۬ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى ٱللَّهِ وَٱلرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمۡ تُؤۡمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلۡيَوۡمِ ٱلۡأَخِرِ*ۚ ذَٲلِكَ خَيۡرٌ۬ وَأَحۡسَنُ تَأۡوِيلاً (٥٩)
O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end. (59)

[An-Nisa]




مَّن يُطِعِ ٱلرَّسُولَ فَقَدۡ أَطَاعَ ٱللَّهَ*ۖ وَمَن تَوَلَّىٰ فَمَآ أَرۡسَلۡنَـٰكَ عَلَيۡهِمۡ حَفِيظً۬ا (٨٠)
Whoso obeyeth the messenger hath obeyed Allah, and whoso turneth away: We have not sent thee as a warder over them. (80)

[An-Nisa]

these ayaah fall null and void to people like optmist because they are under the madhaab that the naql is subserviant to the aql and not vice versa. Its an entire dimension of thought that cannot be reasoned with nor can it be converted by merely quoting the Qur'an. It is a dangerous psychological illness that actually takes some intellectual combat to actually dissipate.

[optimist]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

Nonsense #1:
In the hadeeth he quoted, the phrase" the earth and adam" can be understood as the rest of creation (samawaat wal ard) and Adam. In the Quranic ayaah, the phrase "universe" implies the same (samawaat wal ard).

What the Qur'an is signifying is the creation of everything in our known existence in 6 days. In the hadeeth, it is signifying the creation of everything in our known existence in 6 days and then adding to that, Adam as the last one to be created on the 7th.

Salam,

Brother Al Boriqee, I like reading your intelligent posts, but you do not seem to be intelligent when you try to justify some hadiths. You are only guessing when you say "the phrase" the earth and adam" can be understood as the rest of creation (samawaat wal ard) and Adam".

1. Allah says in the Quran; "Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds." (41:9)

According to the hadith, Allah created the clay on Saturday, mountains on Sunday, trees on Monday, the things entailing labour on Tuesday, created light on Wednesday, caused the animals to spread on Thursday, and then created Adam after 'Asr on Friday.

Can you tell me how many days Allah took to complete the creation of Earth according to the above hadith? Is it just two or more?

2. Quran further says; "Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable."(41:12)

Why this important information regarding the creation is not mentioned in the Hadith? Can you tell me which two days in the hadith refers to this creation? No wonder the people who attribtuted this saying to the prophet had no knowledge about the universe other than just earth (note how the hadith limits the discussion to just 'the earth and adam'), and their knowledge about the Quran was; “And some of them are illiterate, they know not the book but their own false notions, and they do nothing but conjecture.” (2:78)

3. Many Islamic Scholars have interpreted the Six Days mentioned in the Quran to mean six periods based on some of the verses in the Quran, for example, Sura 32, verse 5:". . . in a period of time (yaum) whereof the measure is a thousand years of your reckoning." (It is to be noted that the Creation in six days is precisely what the verse preceding verse 5 refers to). But this hadith nullifies any such interpreation. Do you think many Islamic scholars knowingly or unknowingly reject this hadith?

Well, I agree with you "Islamic theology is not suppose to be EVERYTHING DISCONNECTED from their (jews and christians) beliefs". The message of Allah to all the prophets were the same. The Quran has shown to us where Jews and Chirstians have gone wrong. But it is an admitted fact in the history of Islam many Biblical false stories were injected into Islam in the form of Hadiths. I can tell you two such examples;

(a) The creation of Eve from the rib of Adam and
(b) The Creation of Adam in Allah's Image
Muslim :: Book 40 : Hadith 6809
Abu Huraira radiallahtalanhu reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created Adam in His own image...
Muslim :: Book 32 : Hadith 6325
This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abu Huraira radiallahtalanhu and in the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Hatim Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) is reported to have said: When any one of you fights with his brother, he should avoid his face for Allah created Adam in His own image.

Astahfirullah!!!

(In order not to contradict with Quran you will try to give interpreations for the above statements, because you assume yourself as a matter of faith every single hadith classified by Imam Muslim as 'reliable chain of narrators' (sahih) to be infallible, but please my brother, no matter how you try to justify these hadiths, these statements can not be the words of the prophet and these statements have been falsely attributed to our beloved prophet (I have tears in my eyes now)....and these are biblical flase stories tactfully injected into hadiths to spoil Islam)

Wassalam