> Differences in approach to Islam between Optimist and Sunni Muslims

[optimist]

Salam,

We would be better off just sticking to what the Qur'an says and all these ancillary details like the height of Adam 90 feel in actuality have no bearing on Islam. Allah says in the Quran that He created human being unique and in the best form [لَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الإِنسَـنَ فِى أَحْسَنِ تَقْوِيمٍ ] and no where it is mentioned that the decendants of Adam slowly lost their height. So also, “The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.” [3:059]. It is the only difference. What's fascinating, however, is that both Adam and Jesus have the same occurrences in the Noble Quran. Both were mentioned exactly 25 times each. No where it is mentioned that Jesus had just average height of a modern man and Adam was having 90 feet (imagine the height of a 10 storied building!). If a man is 90 feet high, his survival itself will be in danger due to lack of proper shelter and all. Allah has created human being in the best form and in Allah's creation everything will be in perfect harmony with each other. Allah describes the uniqueness of His artistry in creation in the Qur'an as follows:

"He Who created the seven heavens in layers. You will not find any flaw in the creation of the All-Merciful. Look again-do you see any gaps? Then look again and again. Your sight will return to you dazzled and exhausted!" (Surat al-Mulk: 3-4)

If the decendants of Adam slowly lost their height over a period of time, it will be said to be 'imperfect creation'. It is an admitted fact in the history of early Islam the existence of professional story tellers who entertained people. These Qussas related their stories to the common people, who had a liking for amusing stories. Thus, their main object was to please the public who handsomely rewarded them. To this end, they invented many amusing anecdotes that appealed to the masses and in the process fabricated many Hadiths. It is likely that this is how the story of 90 feet Adam and Eve came into being.

Assuming prophet himself said such an information at any point he would not permit them to preserve this as hadith because it is prohibited in Quran to get involved in unimportant issues. This is stated while discussing the story of the ‘people of the cave’ in the Quran. The importance “people of the cave”, according to the Qur'an, is, ‘“Thus did We make their case known to the people that they might know that the promise of Allah is true and that there can be no doubt about the Hour of Judgment.” (18:21). But the people who came after them started quarrelling on petty issues.

“Behold they dispute among themselves as to their affair. (Some) said "Construct a building over them": their Lord knows best about them: those who prevailed over their affair said "Let us surely build a place of worship over them."(18:21)

Some people started disputing about the total number of the youths. “Some say they were three the dog being the fourth among them; (others) say they were five the dog being the sixth doubtfully guessing at the unknown; (yet others) say they were seven the dog being the eighth. Say (oh Muhammad): "My Lord knoweth best their number; it is but few that know their real case."(18:22)

Some people started disputing about the number of years the youth slept: “So they stayed in their Cave three hundred years and (some) add nine (more).” Say: "Allah knows best how long they stayed: with Him is (the knowledge of) the secrets of the heavens and the earth (18:25)

It is important to note even when discussing these interesting controversies, the Qur'an does not reveal to us the exact number of youth or the number of years they slept in the cave. (Using the same logic we can say for sure that the prophet would not say the height of Adam is so and so). The reason is that such details are unimportant for our guidance. The Qur'an finally gives a clear warning to the Prophet and the Muslims:

“Enter not therefore into controversies concerning them except on a matter that is clear nor consult any of them about (the affair of) the Sleepers”. (18:22)

There is a discourse in the Qur'an about the Jews being asked by Allah to make a sacrifice and the Jews, in turn, asking the prophet Moses all types of questions, about the size, age and colour of the cow to be sacrificed. The Qur'an strongly condemned asking such questions.

“O you who believe, do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Qur'an is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith” - (5:101-102).

The last part of the above verse: ‘some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith’, is a reminder for us.

Wassalam

[salman]

optimist, we are getting tired of your typical responses, at least I am. Please keep your heretical views to yourself and spare us from committing kufr against Allah by rejecting part of His deen for which we have no proof.

Originally Posted by optimist

We would be better off just sticking to what the Qur'an says

yet you don't; the Qur'an says that follow the Messenger of Allah and the same Qur'an says that if you don't know then ask those who know. So are you sticking to the Qur'an or do you just like to hit other people with your typical ranting stick of "let's just stick to the Qur'an" which is heresy in and of itself. And you want us to leave good amount of our religion? Why can't you just come out and say this blatantly instead of acting like a coward and hiding behind typical heretical statements?

Originally Posted by optimist

It is an admitted fact in the history of early Islam the existence of professional story tellers who entertained people. These Qussas related their stories to the common people, who had a liking for amusing stories. Thus, their main object was to please the public who handsomely rewarded them. To this end, they invented many amusing anecdotes that appealed to the masses

The kuffaar make the exact same argument about the stories in the Qur'an and other things therein. Look, how low you have fallen that you have to take arguments from the kuffaar and change them a bit to prove your heretical ideas. So well done!

Story telling in this fashion was part of pre-jahilya culture and also found in many other cultures. In order to prove that this had any affect on sahih ahadith, one need to prove case by case and not relay something which is well known.

Originally Posted by optimist

and in the process fabricated many Hadiths.

yeh, so what? We know what is authentic and what is not. Unlike you, we don't believe that our Qur'an is not authentic.

Originally Posted by optimist

It is likely that this is how the story of 90 feet (imagine the height of a 10 storied building) Adam and Eve came into being.

either prove it or seal your mouth and sealing your mouth is better for you then speculating about the deen of Allah. For Allah's love, this is deen al-Islam we are talking about and not a fairy tale for which we can say whatever we want. Just in case you didn't know many scholars explained that 90 ft tall could refer to their height in jannah.

Originally Posted by optimist

Assuming prophet himself said such an information at any point he would not permit them to preserve this as hadith because it is prohibited in Quran to get involved in unimportant issues.

are you for real? and who told you that it is not important issue?

[Haqekka']

Optimist-do you reject sahih hadeeths?If you do:may Allah SUT guide you!

[optimist]

Originally Posted by Haqekka'

Originally Posted by Haqekka'

Optimist-do you reject sahih hadeeths?If you do:may Allah SUT guide you!

Wa alaikumussalam,

I never called for rejection of all hadiths.

Sister, when a hadith tells you The Earth and Adam were created in SEVEN Days (Muslim Hadith No. 6707) and at the same time when you read in the Quran the entire Universe was created in SIX Days (Qur'an 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 32:4), do you believe in Quran or in this hadith because it is labeled as sahih? You have only one choice. we will be safe to conclude that this words attributed to the prophet is untrue and Iman Muslim made an error in his judgement to conclude that this is a sahih report, and the chain of narrators can not be trusted since they go against Quran (It is pertinent to note that all hadiths compilers rejected majority of hadiths that they come across as weak.)

But If you accept this hadith as true statement of the prophet (prophet would not make any statements contrary to Quran) it will be tantamount to rejecting the Quran which is a serious issue. When I reject this hadith I am not rejecting the prophet, but I am only saying that so and so statements can not be words of the prophet and the chain of narrators, though may be sincere people, somehow or other mislead to believe the prophet infact said so.

Iman Bukhari and Muslim used certain criteria for acceptance of hadith as sahih, but that does not give any infallibility for their method.

@ brother salman, you are misunderstanding me and my intention. I will answer you later.

Wassalam

[Haqekka']

Optimist-may be you can read about the types of sahih hadeeths-it will let you understand some important things,insha'Allah!

Six days means six periods of time.

Well,in Bible there are stories for giants and titans as well,as well as many legends all over the world.
I still remember ARAMCO scandal:
Giant human skeleton found in Saudi Arabia

[optimist]

Originally Posted by Haqekka'

Originally Posted by Haqekka'

Six days means six periods of time.

Wassalam,

I agree some translators have translated the word أَيَّامٍ mentioned in the Quran as "periods". But majority of translators have translated it as "days" I quote below the relevant verses from the Quran;

خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ
(7:54)

إِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ
(10:3)

وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ
(11:7)

اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ
(32:4)


Well, how do you explain the following hadith if it is just "periods"?

"Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday;the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i. e. between afternoon and night." (Muslim 6707)

PS: Jews & Christians also believe Adam was created on Friday

wassalam

[Haqekka']

Originally Posted by optimist

Wassalam,

I agree some translators have translated the word أَيَّامٍ mentioned in the Quran as "periods". But majority of translators have translated it as "days" I quote below the relevant verses from the Quran;

خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ
(7:54)

إِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ
(10:3)

وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ
(11:7)

اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ
(32:4)


Well, how do you explain the following hadith if it is just "periods"?

"Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday;the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i. e. between afternoon and night." (Muslim 6707)

PS: Jews & Christians also believe Adam was created on Friday

wassalam

Slm.Which book of hadeeths is that from?
For sure I don't have to explain it myself,I need just to read what scholars have said about it :)

[optimist]

Sahih Muslim Book 39. Giving Description Of The Day Judgement, Paradise and Hell. Hadith No. 6707

[Haqekka']

Indeed your Lord is Allâh, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days...(7:54)


Surely, your Lord is Allâh Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then ..(10:3)

And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His ..(11:7)

Allâh it is He Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them in six Days...(32:4)

Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday;the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i. e. between afternoon and night.

Allah Ta'aala is the Time.Only He SUT knows how long is ,,Suturday,, and ,,Friday ,,.I will read about it,insha'Allah!

[optimist]

Originally Posted by Haqekka'

Indeed your Lord is Allâh, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days...(7:54)


Surely, your Lord is Allâh Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then ..(10:3)

And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His ..(11:7)

Allâh it is He Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them in six Days...(32:4)

Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday;the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i. e. between afternoon and night.

Allah Ta'aala is the Time.Only He SUT knows how long is ,,Suturday,, and ,,Friday ,,.I will read about it,insha'Allah!

Insha Allah...but I hope you will not come up with a case that the prophet is referring to some other length of days. Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wed., Thur., and Friday are days in relation our counting of days.