> Proposed Refutation !

[Aayah]

Originally Posted by salman

^akhee, come on, don't do that

sister, don't worry about him...he is not important and neither you need to know about him or visit his website - all you need to know is that he is an ex-Muslim and Islamic hater. you can check out my two rebuttals to his articles in Faithfreedom and Wikiislam to find out his batil aqeedah.

I wonder what made you do that brother, I already looked at the site brother Qatada posted before you removed it
Sorry about this, but do you think that his stupid corrupted website will change something on me???

Even though, How I am supposed to do Dawah without knowing about such people? I cant only watch good muslims, I have to know about people like Ali Sin'a who doesn't deserve to carry the title "muslim" in one stage of their lives

[salman]

^smile, sister, we don't allow randomly posting links of kufaar websites. secondly, not everyone has strong foundation of Islam and it would only create suspicions in the hearts of weak Muslims. Thirdly, you don't have to visit his website to know about him and what garbage he has written. Fourthly, by visiting his website, you're only increasing their popularity as one more person hits the link of their website.

I had good reasons to remove it and Allah knows best.

[Assad]

How are we going to start with this project? This is important rather than adding/visiting/removing websites containing baatil beliefs :)

Let bro Qatada,al Habeshi or Salman/Abdul Fattah decide a team, assign objectives and guidelines and start with this

[Qatada]

asalaam alaikum


since bro abdul muhsin wanted the project to start, and he has alot of experience with ali sina's arguments, i think it should go like this;


bro abdul muhsin posts the argument against islam by ali sina, then we all respond with our opinions refuting it.

then we do the same for the next argument, and next and next.. this way we can all share our opinions and bring some good, straightforward and powerful points - because we all combined together to give our views.


Allahu a'lam.

[Abd al-Muhsin al Hindy]

AsSalaamu alaykum wa Rahmatullhi wa Barkatuhu,

Well , thank you brother's and especially brother Qatadah and Acid. So Let's Start with the
Refuatation ; as bro Qatadah said I shall post from the Book "Understanding Muhammad" and we all shall try and refute it with allour Opinions!
I think this ebook of Sina is available online on Scribd.com so I'll be posting from the ebook.
So I think I must start from the PREFACE!!!
Here the Preface of his Book :
************************************************** ****************
Preface
By Ibn Warraq

Dr. Ali Sina was born into a Muslim family in Iran. Some of his relatives were Ayatollahs. Like most educated Iranians he believed that Islam was a humanistic religion that espected human rights. But Dr. Sina was also blessed with an enquiring mind, a rationalistic spirit that questioned, probed, and looked at the evidence unflinchingly. What he slowly discovered about the real Islam shook him morally and intellectually, and what is more, made him realize, long before September 11, 2001, that unless someone spoke the truth about the faith he was born into, the world would be faced with a system of thought and belief that would destroy not just the West, but civilization as a whole. Since his epiphanous moment when he discovered the inhuman nature of this religion, Dr Sina has dedicated his life to discussing, criticizing, exposing the unacceptable aspects of Islam on his widely quoted website Faith Freedom International.

The West can make use of defectors, like Dr. Sina, from Islam
(apostates) in the way the West used defectors from communism.
As I wrote in Leaving Islam(1), there are very useful analogies to be drawn between Communism and Islam, such as the ones Maxime Rodinson(2) and Bertrand Russell have pointed out between the mindset of the communists of the 1930s and the Islamists of the 1990s and 21st century. As Russell said, “Among religions, Bolshevism [Communism] is to be reckoned with Mohammedanism rather than with Christianity and Buddhism. Christianity and Buddhism are primarily personal religions, with mystical doctrines and a love of contemplation.

__________________________________
1
Ibn Warraq. Leaving Islam. Apostates Speak Out. Amherst: Prometheus Books. p.136
2
Maxime Rodinson: Islam et communisme, une ressemblance frappante, in Le Figaro [Paris, daily newspaper], 28 Sep. 2001

************************************************** ****************

Mohammedanism and Bolshevism are practical, social, unspiritual, concerned to win the empire of this world.”(3) Hence the interest in the present situation and its haunting parallels with the communism of the western intellectuals in the 1930s. As Koestler said, “You hate our Cassandra cries and resent us as allies, but when all is said, we ex-Communists are the only people on your side who know what it’s all about.”(4)
As Crossman wrote in his introduction, “Silone [an ex-Communist] was joking when he said to Togliatti that the final battle would be between the Communists and ex-Communists. But no one who has not wrestled with Communism as a philosophy and Communists as political opponents can really understand the values of Western Democracy. The Devil once lived in Heaven, and those who have not met him are unlikely to recognize an angel when they see one.”(5)

Communism has been defeated, at least for the moment, Islamism has
not, and unless a reformed, tolerant, liberal kind of Islam emerges soon, perhaps
the final battle will be between Islam and Western Democracy. And these ex-
Muslims, to echo Koestler’s words, on the side of Western Democracy, are the
only ones who know what it’s all about, and we would do well to listen to their
Cassandra cries.

We who live in the free West and enjoy freedom of expression and
scientific inquiry should encourage a rational look at Islam, should encourage
Quranic criticism. Only Quranic criticism can help Muslims to look at their
Holy Scripture in a more rational and objective way, and prevent young
Muslims from being fanaticized by the Quran’s less tolerant verses. It is the
civic duty of all individuals living in the West to inform themselves about Islam.
But if they only consult the works available in the megastores, they will find
apologists of Islam. It is only by going through the meticulously documented
and impeccably argued website of Dr. Sina and his team of writers that we
would be able to obtain a more just appraisal of Islam. Now, of course, we have
Dr. Sina's book which I urge all responsible citizens whose critical faculties
have not been lulled into confusion and befuddlement by oft-repeated slogans
about Islam being a religion of peace to read carefully. Thanks to the courageous
efforts of independent scholars like Dr. Ali Sina, there can no longer be any
excuse for remaining ignorant about a religion that may annihilate all that you
cherish and hold worth defending.

Ibn Warraq is the author of Leaving Islam, What the Koran Really
Says, The Quest for the Historical Muhammad, The Origins of the Koran and Why I Am Not a Muslim, the book that inspired many Muslims to awake and question their cherished faith.

____________________________________________
3
B.Russell, Theory and Practice of Bolshevism, London, 1921 pp .5, 29, 114
4
A.Koestler, et al, The God That Failed, Hamish Hamilton, London, 1950, p.7
5
Ibid. p16

iv


************************************************** ****************


Well , this is the Preface to his book by Ibn Warraq the Indian Murtadd!!!!!!! He too is quite Unscholarly in his writing , I have read dew parts of his book why I am not a Muslim, and it seems he was Upset with the Islamic Conquest of India ......and and has used weak historical sources to proove his points.
So we are Gonna Refute Sina so start from his Preface I believe word to word Refutation
will be better.Let me Start first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

__________________________________________________ _______________________

THE BIG ONE: This is one of the Biggest lie Sina Has been telling around.

"Dr. Ali Sina was born into a Muslim family in Iran"

Sina never was a MUSLIM he was a KAAFIR and is a KAAFIR ! How come? Because he was a Shia and Shia aren't Muslims and all the Ulama agree! This argument is quite strong , because this argument debunks his claims of being a EX-MUSLIM, and he cannot refute this argument because to do so he will have to refute all the Great Schloars of ISLAM;which he is incapable.I call this THE BIG LIE !

"Some of his relatives were Ayatollahs. Like most educated Iranians he believed that Islam was a humanistic religion that respected human rights."

Well , Sina says so ! Can he proove that his realtive were AYATOLLAHS even if they were;they too are Shia!!!Firstly just because Sina Says X= 1; we won't accept it! This again is one of his pranks to show that he comes from the Family of Scholars and he too is one !!!!! But the Ayatullahs we quite unschlolarly eg: Khomayni;and see their Ahadith Books without Sanads.....
So Proove that you come from the Family of Ayatullahs!!!!!!!!
Secondly Ibn Waraq writes "Like most educated Iranians" I say even an illliterate muslim belives that ISLAM is the ONLY Humanistic Religion !!!!. People need not be educated(Literate) to see the Humanistic Values in Islam. Islam is an Open religion ! Unlike Shia Taqiya! And the Christian Sweet-Sword!Or Does Ibn Warraqa Think that Only Literate are Intelligent !!!!

"But Dr. Sina was also blessed with an enquiring mind, a rationalistic spirit that questioned, probed, and looked at the evidence unflinchingly."

Clear Lie! Well Sina wasn't Blessed with an enquiring mind but an BIASED MIND!And if Ibn Warraqa call 's Sina a Rationalist then the Oxford's and all the Dictionary need to be edited and the Meaning of Rationalistic should be Changed.As Sina doesn't have any rationalism in him!And if Sina is Unflinching then why does he hide his face and details!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Huh ! he is a Coward Frightened of DEATH !How Foolish of Ibn Warrqa.

"What he slowly discovered about the real Islam shook him morally and intellectually, and what is more, made him realize, long before September 11, 2001, that unless someone spoke the truth about the faith he was born into, the world would be faced with a system of thought and belief that would destroy not just the West, but civilization as a whole. "

Well , Sina Slowly Discovered his Foolishness which Shook him and he was left with no Morale!! Which Led to his mental Instability; I Guess I am Going Right! Which Civilization !!! The American "CIVILIZATON" which kills innocent muslims!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think the Problem with all the MURTADD LIES IS A SHORT STORY WHICH I WAS TAUGHT IN My SCHOOL. THe Story of the Fox and Grapes!!
Sina/M.A Khan/Abul Kassem...etc all these Murtads are the the Fox who was hungry and found a Grape tree ...the grapes were very good fox's mouth started watering .....but the grapes were at a Height and the Foz Jumped and Jumpedbut could not get the grapes at last he thought "The Grapes must be SOur" and left. Same are the Murtadds when they don't understand ISLAM (i.e they never study Islam nor practice like Sina never prayed 5 times)they try and proove that ISLAM is BAD...etc .But Who's at Loss! What's the Moral of the Story!!
InShaALLAh I will Write more.............................................I hope the Friends here too
help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DON'T BE LIKE SINA THE FOX ! UNDERSTAND ISLAM EVEN IF IT TAKES YOUR WHOLE LIFE
OR YOU TOO WILL BE AT LOSS AS SINA THE FOX IS.

WELL AT LAST MY GREETING'S,
TO FOOLS AT FAITHFREEDOM INTERNATIONAL(FFFI).

[Qatada]

:


Okay, so alhamdulillah our introduction should be brief and mention the main points briefly;

Ali Sina was never Muslim according to the mainstream [Sunni] Islam from the start.

Ali Sina never rejected Islam due to rejection of the Sunnah (due to his lack of knowledge of it - since he was Shi'i), but rather because of emotional feelings. So he had rejected Islam before even knowing the true mainstream Islam.

Ali Sina was ignorant of Islam, and this is why he actually argued points which show a lack of understanding of different issues about the religion.

Shall we move onto the next parts? Anyone who wants to comment on previous parts can continue to do so.

[Al Habeshi]

Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem,

as-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullah.

I think it should be more general, even in the intro. You can inco-operate the points mentioned but still make it general. E.g.

In assessing the validity of the claims of Prophethood and objectively analysing the Character of any historical figure one has to try - as hard as it may be - to remove bias from oneself and be honest in his outlook.

Being born into a, supposed, Muslim family or coming from an all, supposed, Muslim country can be a positive or negative thing depending on the individual's own striving. Thus, regardless of who's nephew one is or which position one holds, the Muslim is required in certain matters to hold himself into account and ponder over various things.

Sometimes those born into culturally Muslim areas actually reject a cultural practice which is portraied by those around them to be Islam. Thus, in order to obtain a level of objectivity one would do well to keep in mind two steps in his quest.

I - The need to look at the evidence, the teachings stemming from the original sources and not pressuppositions or actions of individuals who are not authoratative.

II - The need to look at the context and understanding them before passing judgement and/or forming conclusions.

You will find that many of those who seek to propose understanding of historical figures1 will faulter on one or both of the above mentioned steps, thus rendering their work barren for those who are objectively inclined.

Footnotes:

1 - This is evident with many of those who seek to re-understand Prophet Muhammad, sallaAllahu alayhi wa salam, but is also evident- albeit easier to justify - within the circle of those who try to re-understand the person of Jesus. Scholars who when look at the evidence refuse to accept miracles or prophecies and thus refuse to accept them - without any other reason - out of the supposed true Jesus tradition.

Maybe it feels long, but in a book you have like at least a page to write a small introduction, if one uses half a page he might aswell use 1 whole - I think.

But would it not be better to read through the whole thing before writing?

Br.al-Habeshi

[amar_labedi]

Wa alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

YOu are blessed with a very good idea brother no doubt he talks rubbish but there are number of people getting detached so it is a much needed task please go on brother
May Allah guide you with knowledge and sources Ameen.

Jazakallah

amar