> Muslim Response Refuting Trinity: Analogies and Textual Evidence

[salman]

:

Muslim response, a refutation, and logical analysis of Trinity: textual evidence and analogies used by Christians (Trinitrains) to explain their uncomprehending, illogical, polytheist belief in triune God. They believe that the Father (Lord) is God, the Son (Jesus - Peace be upon him) is God and a man and the Holy ghost is God; they're all separate 3 different personalities and entities yet they are one God. In order to explain this illogical and contradictory concept, they come up with silly analogies and poor textual arguments.

A whole series of articles by brother Bassam Zawadi refuting the trinity in both the old and new testament could be found at Refuting Trinity

Refutation to Common Analogies

1 - Computer Game Analogy of Trinity
2 - The Orange Analogy of Trinity and here
3 - Boolean Algebra Analogy of Trinity
4 - Time Analogy of Trinity

[salman]

2 - The Orange Analogy of Trinity

Brother Acid's Response:

One way in which the Christians try to explain their belief system of Trinity , which was never taught by any prophet neither Jesus Christ (peace be upon them) in the bible , is by an orange. So these people have to explain the concept of "their one god" via an example of orange while people of pure monotheistic faith just have to say "There is no God but One God" and that sums up the true belief in One Creator.

Let's see what "Orange in Trinity" tries to teach us.

Christians say that orange is made up of :

1. Seed
2. Fruit.
3. Orange peel

Now all these 3 things makes up an orange i.e. seed , the pulp and peel makes up a single orange. Now there is nothing to object here , after all thats how an orange is made up.

Now they compare these things which makes up an orange makes up One God. Therefore God is compared as :

1. Seed - Father
2. Fruit - Holy Ghost
3. Peel - Son

That sums up the doctrine of Trinity. Can we say that this ONE GOD just like ONE ORANGE? No .. It doesnt , Let's see..

According to the above analogy Christians say :

1. Seed - is itself an ORANGE
2. Fruit - is itself an ORANGE
3. Peel - is itself an ORANGE

That gives us 3 oranges , now lets see their comparative analogy:

1. Seed -The Father is GOD
2. Fruit -The Holy Ghost is GOD
3. Peel - The Son is GOD

That gives us 3 GODS and not 1 GOD.

Now trinitarians Christian polytheists will make up different stupid examples to support this view whos aim will be to make us believe that 3 gods are 1 gods , would any one be as stupid as this to believe in this? I doubt even a kid would believe in that!


The trinity is a myth which wasnt even known to the followers of Christ and was made up way after Jesus death , borrowed from pagan philosphy which today the christians worldwide accept blindly.


"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- "

( Surah , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157) - Noble Qur'an

The best guidance is from Allah , I invite all Christians to the True Religion of The Almighty God.


"Truly the Religion with Allah is Islam"

[salman]

2 - The Orange Analogy of Trinity

With the Name Of Allah, Ar-Rahman (The Bestower Of Mercy), Ar-Raheem (The Most Merciful), I start writing; Seeking His Help and His Blessings.

Brother Acid has already covered this nicely but let me post my quick response on this analogy. They claim that the orange has three parts (the seed, the peal and the skin) but it isn't three oranges but one orange. So similarly, the God consist of three different entities but they aren't three different gods but one God.

First, are you telling me that the Jesus (peace be upon him) and the holy ghost are the parts of God? Second, your orange analogy doesn't completely follow the trinity theory. This is what trinity means, more or less:

There are three distinct persons, the father and the son and the holy ghost, but they are all divine so they are one. The son is not only divine but he is also human which is itself contradictory. A person cannot be created and uncreated at the same time.

So now if apply the orange analogy, it is a complete failure. Yes, it is clear that the three part of an orange makes an orange but each part itself isn't an orange, here each part being divine fails; remember the definition of trinity. If you say that skin is part of an orange then it isn't distinct but if you say that it is distinct then skin isn't an orange. Also, remember that the son holds an attribute which is not part of an orange or orange itself. The attribute isn't even define within the limits of an orange since it's completely the opposite of it. So however, you look at it, the analogy fails.

Wallahu A'lam (and Allah knows best)

[salman]

3 - Boolean Algebra Analogy of Trinity

When we ask Christians (trinitarians) how does 1 + 1 + 1 = 1? They say that use the Boolean Algebra on this equation and you'll get the correct answer. Basically they're saying that in Boolean Algebra, this equation means the father or the son or the holy ghost = one god. Too bad for these believers of nonsense creed, they can only fool those who don't know anything about Boolean Algebra. These guys need to re-learn their University/College Math if they ever taken.

Let's learn the basics of Boolean Algebra together:

In Boolean Algebra the "plus (+)" sign equals/means "OR" and the "dot (.)" equals/means "AND". The digit "1" equals/means something is "TRUE" and digit "0" equals/means something is "FALSE"

We've already seen in the previous two analogies that the Christians (Trinitarians) violated the definition of the trinity while using those analogies. Having said that I don't think the readers will be surprised to learn that they did it YET AGAIN!

The learner needs to be reminded that when we apply the Boolean Algebra on trinity, it is an "AND" function not "OR" function as it says "The father AND the Son AND the Holy ghost". It doesn't say "The father OR the Son Or the holy ghost"; this is problem # 1 but not the last one. So in Boolean Algebra the equation should be written as: 1 . 1 . 1 = 1. In addition, as we mentioned before the digit "1" means something is true. Hence, in simple words this equations means: something A is True AND something B is True AND something C is True; therefore, the whole thing is true - mind you here A=B=C. How does this say that the father is first "1" AND the son is the 2nd "1" AND holy ghost is the third "1"; therefore, they are all one not three?

When we use Boolean Algebra on different variables we apply some statement to it and check if it is true or not and thus get the final result. For sake of argument and simplicity, let's apply the basic trinitarian doctrine: "Are the three members of trinity divine?" So we ask these three questions
1 - Is the father divine? Yes (according to them); so, in B.A (Boolean Algebra) = TRUE
2 - Is the son divine? Yes and No (according to them); so, in B.A = TRUE and FALSE
3 - Is the holy ghost divine? Yes (according to them); so, in B.A (Boolean Algebra) = TRUE

Let's put together in B.A equation:
1 . 0 . 1 = 0
The final answer according to this equation is "The father and the son and the holy ghost are not divine". Will the Christians say that their Biblical God is 0, meaning doesn't exist - implying their original argument? Now, why the 2nd column equals 0 even though we accepted that the son is divine. The answer is simple when we say "Is A and B true?", the both variables have to be true but in case of the son, he is TRUE and FALSE = False.

Even for the sake of argument we go with:
1 . 1 . 1 = 1
This only proves that all three are divine, but it doesn't prove that all three are ONE. Using the same example above try the statement "Is father = the son = the holy ghost?" as your homework and you'll get:
0 . 0 . 0 = 0.

In conclusion, again their analogy is a complete failure and flawed illogical statement, which neither follow the laws of Boolean Algebra nor the definition of trinity.

Wallahu A'lam (and Allah knows best)

[SilverLJ]

I have never heard any of these used as an analogy for the idea of the trinity and it seem an absurdity to me to refute an analogy as by its very nature it is not some kind of proof. Its a way to try to illustrate or throw some light on the idea - analogies are not proofs so there is nothing to refute, they may be good analogies or bad ones but that is all; they neither confirm or deny the trinity.

If we are to find the doctrine of te trinitry we find it in the Bible not by any analogy no matter how powerful its seems

Here is one such analogy I heard recently: there are three candles lighting this room but but there is only one light.

[salman]

First, I apologize for lost of all the posts. I was trying to move few off-topic posts and merge similar discussions but for some odd reasons the thread was lost. But I was able to pull only these posts from an old backup. If you have saved your responses on your computer or somewhere, then please do re-post them or you can start the discussion all over again. again, my humble apology!

Now you can also discuss textual arguments here because I do not want many thread on this topic. However, if the discussion gets too long then I may have to split between refutations and discussion: one thread dedicated to Muslim refutations and one dedicated to discussion & responses by Christians.

[amar_labedi]

Peace Mercy and blessing of Almighty God be on all of you

There is no compuslion in Religion.

· Deuteronomy 6:4 Or The Lord our God is one Lord; or The Lord our God, the Lord is one; or The Lord is our God, the Lord is one.

“Say: O people of the book (Christians and Jews) come to common terms as between us and you: that we all worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lord and patrons in His place. If then they turn their backs, say ye: bear witness that we (at last) are Muslims (totally submitting to the will of Allah)” (3; 64)

[amar_labedi]

Assalamalaikum wa rahamatullahi wa baraktuhu

one thread dedicated to Muslim refutations and one dedicated to discussion & responses by Christians. __________________

Brother can you please refer me the thread which is dedicated to Muslim refutation...
Jazakallah

[salman]

^

good suggestion brother, I have moved the discussion posts to new thread to keep this clean and dedicated to our responses and refutations. You can access discussion thread at Discussion on Trinity

[armandawahchannelislam]

Assalaamualaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh Brother Salman.

Hope you and your family are keeping well insha'ALLAAH.

I am currently on a message board with some christians who are inventing the idea of trinity as 1x1x1=1 rather than 1+1+1=1 (incorrect) to justify their notion of trinity. I have checked other websites regarding refuting this and have assimilated what I could and I clearly understand that this idea of multiplying the 3 separate entities does not apply because the Nicean creed is that there are 3 separate personalities, so if we add them together it makes 3 and not 1, but the christians are using this logic of multiplying the unit of 1 to justify this. Now in terms of refutation from the muslim websites, I haven't seen anything on this, so perhaps insha'ALLAAH you could include the refutation of 1x1x1=1 on your website insha'ALLAAH?

Here is a sample of the dialogue "CHRISTIAN" (Chris) and "ME" (nickname 'jesus_a_man_of_god), we've been having..

Hope to hear from you insha'ALLAAH soon, WasSalaamualaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh, Brother Arman:-



CHRISTIAN:

Cave *cough* Angelic vision *cough* New religious book and faith *cough* I beleive the phrase most appropriate here is pot and kettle

Paul is indeed the considered the second founder of Christianity. However, he worked with the Apostles such as James and Peter, he did not work in isolation, he preached to Christians who had already received the word of God from others, so he did not "invent" the whole religion of Christianity

And I'd be careful about trying to denigrate Christianity on that score when one considers how Mo created Islam, based on visions and a book he dictated to others to be writen down.


ME:

The Proof of the pudding is in 'The Message' my dear brother. Prophet Muhammad pbuh's Message is the same and compatible as all the previous Prophets and Messengers of GOD pbut. As opposed to Mr Saul Paul's message which contradicts their message, hence as many learned individuals have said, and you do not even need to be learned, Paul was the corrupter of the way of Jesus pbuh, Islam: submitting your will to GOD.

Abraham: 1 GOD w/o partner 1
Ishmael/Isaac: 1 GOD w/o partner 1
Moses: 1 GOD w/o partner 1
Jesus: 1 GOD w/o partner 1
Mohammed: 1 GOD w/o partner 1


saul paul: 1 God WITH partners 1 = 1+1+1 ??
3 CORRECT

Whatever mr paul tells us, we are bound to listen to Jesus pbuh! Jesus pbuh overrules mr paul and there cannot be any dispute on this point....EXCEPT from people who reject Jesus pbuh. Do we follow men? Or do we follow Jesus pbuh?

The problem is not and cannot be, that Jesus pbuh is not listening closely enough to mr paul. The Problem must therefore be - that mr saul is not listening closely enough to Jesus pbuh!


CHRISTIAN:

Hi jesus_a_man_of_god,

Why can't you people tell the WHOLE story and just stop posting half-truths?

"The Proof of the pudding is in 'The Message' my dear brother Richie."

We agree with you!

"Prophet Muhammad pbuh's Message is the same and compatible as all the previous Prophets and Messengers of GOD pbut."

No, Muhammad's message is simliar in many regards but contradictory in others. He attempts to override the teachings of the prophets regarding a man who would come to die for Israel (Jesus, the Messiah, the suffering servant.)

"Abraham: 1 GOD w/o partner 1
Ishmael/Isaac: 1 GOD w/o partner 1
Moses: 1 GOD w/o partner 1
Jesus: 1 GOD w/o partner 1
Mohammed: 1 GOD w/o partner 1"

We completely agree there too.

"saul paul: 1 God WITH partners 1 = 1+1+1 ??
3CORRECT"

No, that is an incorrect understanding of Paul's teaching. I am not surprised to hear you repeat this nonsense, because Islam's teaching about what Christians believe is wrong.
Also, you have written the Trinity formula wrong. It is: 1= 1x1x1.
The Father is God AND the Son is God AND the Holy-Spirit is God. It is a Boolean AND-function, written with a multiplication sign.
(Not a Boolean OR-function, which would be written with an addition sign.)

"Whatever mr paul tells us, we are bound to listen to Jesus pbuh!"

Yes, that is the correct attitude!

"Jesus pbuh overrules mr paul and there cannot be any dispute on this point"

Yes, you would be right again to say that, but Jesus does not override Paul because Paul got his teaching from Jesus. (And please don't give me the "Paul never met Jesus," argument.)

Chris.


ME:

Prophet Muhammad pbuh's Message is the same Message as Jesus pbuh and all the Prophets and Messengers' Message from GOD, peace be upon them, the essence being The Oneness of GOD WITHOUT a partner, not one jot or tittle shall be amended to the Law, many false prophets shall come (Saul, mr paul), and he did not come to change the Law or the Prophets but to fulfill it matt 5.17. Prophet Muhammad pbuh therefore did not override the teachings of Jesus pbuh and the Prophets, it is called Confirming it, restoring it, unlike saul who reformed and changed it - he's the one who you said contradicted Jesus pbuh and all the other Prophets pbut's teaching, submission to the Will of GOD: matt 7.22 the will of GOD, matt 19.16-17, matt 5.19: To go to heaven, keep the commandments; whoever breaks this (i.e paul and his followers - christians of today), shall not enter heaven.

1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 also equals one
that's quite a few gods, could be innumerable!!!

God the father x God the son x God the ghost x God the a x God the b x God the c

The Nicean creed is that they're actually 3 distinct personalities: person + person + person = 1 person which it isn't hence they declare it a mystery...guess what, it's not a mystery - it's a fabrication not even present in ur bible, but it is in The Qur'aan: Don't say Trinity - desist it's better for you - GLORY BE TO GOD! He has no Son, He is Incomparable, Independent of all needs, but all depend on Him !


CHRISTIAN:

I promise that I am being serious here and not trying to wind anyone up. But I can't tell if you are teasing us or being deliberately stupid. Especially as I very carefully explained the position.

"Prophet Muhammad pbuh's Message is the same Message as Jesus pbuh and all the Prophets and Messengers' Message from GOD, peace be upon them,"

No it isn't. I only need to give one example to prove that:
Jesus said that on return to Jerusalem, he would be handed over to the priests and he would be killed. It happened just as Jesus said, so had he uttered a false prophecy?
(especially as the old Jewish prophets predicted that this would happen, Psalm 22 (Zabur), Isaiah 52/53, Daniel 9.)

"the essence being The Oneness of GOD WITHOUT a partner,"

Yes, we accept that. No Christian believes that God has a partner.

"not one jot or tittle shall be amended to the Law,"

That is not an accurate quote, but if you accept it then you have to accept that the New Testament is not corrupted!
The term Jot/Tittle (think of dotting i's and crossing t's) means that the text will remain EXACT.

"many false prophets shall come (Saul, mr paul), "

That is your interpretation (Eisegesis).

"and he did not come to change the Law or the Prophets but to fulfill it matt 5.17."

How did Jesus fulfill the law? (and why then do you Muslims still try to keep the law.)

"Prophet Muhammad pbuh therefore did not override the teachings of Jesus pbuh and the Prophets, it is called Confirming it, restoring it,"

Muhammad did override the teachings of Jesus. Bearing in mind that you accept the "Jot & Tittle" statement, just do a comparison between the Gospels and the Qur'an.

"unlike saul who reformed and changed it - he's the one who you said contradicted Jesus pbuh and all the other Prophets pbut's teaching,"

Urrm, do you even know who Paul was and what his qualification was to talk about scripture?
There was sufficient time between Jesus ascending to Heaven and Paul coming on the scene. If he had been teaching against Jesus, then thousands of people would have objected to him.
Do you know what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus?

"1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 also equals one
that's quite a few gods, could be innumerable!!!"

Yes, That is true. But we have only been told about 3 "persons" each of whom are God. BUT there is only 1 God.

"God the father x God the son x God the ghost x God the a x God the b x God the c"

No, it would be God the father x God the son x God the ghost = 1 God.
Try not to misrepresent our position, or someone might think that you are being dishonest!

"The Nicean creed is that they're actually 3 distinct personalities: person + person + person = 1 person which it isn't hence they declare it a mystery"

No it doesn't.
It says person + person + person = 1 God.
Don't repeat the nonsense that Ahmed Deedat said, because ultimately it cost him his life!
(Did you know that?)

Again, be careful not to misrepresent our position or someone will think you are being dishonest. This is twice I have said this in one posting!

Chris.


ME:

Mate, with all due respect, I think YOU are being stupid, not me. Prophet Muhammad pbuh did teach what Jesus pbuh taught..you think Ahmed Deedat died because of what?? Come again?!! Paul was an ex-Jew rabbi who had never met Jesus pbuh, and I WILL reiterate that..yet you still choose to follow him......what qualification does Saul have, you tell me chris...Where did you get this 1x1x1 business from? It's a complete fabrication! Matt Slick of carm.org came up with this flawed logic. You're saying that the trinity is possible because its maths aren't 1+1+1=3 but 1x1x1=1...This is ludicrous simply because each of the multiplied figures is the same figure being multiplied by itself. If this is the maths of God then God is 1 person not 3. And if God can’t do a basic sums, then He shouldn't be dictating to people that they must believe that he is 1 in 3. Let's propose if the Father multiplies himself to make the Son........... then how could you multiply that which is unlimited and infinite? the father is supposed to cause the Son and both cause the Holy Spirit?????.....Chris, The Nicene Creed says, “We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God light from Light, true God from true God begotten not made, of one being with the Father and through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from Heaven. He was conceived by the Holy Sprit and born of the Virgin Mary.”.....CHECK IT!!! This is not 1x1x1=1 but 1 causes another 1 which both cause a further 1. GOD is a spiritual being that has no composition, he has no parts. Multiplication and addition have only meaning for things that have composition. You can't multiply something abstract and God is like an abstract!!!!!!!! There can be no multiplication or addition within a spiritual nature. Think of it this way.....GOD is by definition the uncaused being. He is uncreated. But in God the Father begets the Son and both project the Holy Spirit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!So the Trinity has that which can't be caused causing the Son and causing the Holy Spirit. It’s all a contradiction. E.G, the creed pretends that begotten is not the same as being made!..........If you are begotten you are made. Your father begot you when he made you from his sperm. God the Father is thought to be unbegotten so you have an unbegotten person in God and a begotten one and then they tell you that God is one being!

P.S Don't call it the zabur, injeel etc to try and fit in with Muslims because it won't work, you can go ahead, but we already know that the bible is corrupted by the likes of saul. Whatever matches with The Qur'aan we accept, hence the monotheism in ur bible we accept, and reject anything which puts GOD to a level of His creation! He's not a son, or has a son, nor does He manifest Himself in His creation! Glory be to Him!

I'm speaking The Truth, read properly brother.


CHRISTIAN:

"Prophet Muhammad pbuh did teach what Jesus pbuh taught.."

No, Muhammad taught only some of what Jesus taught. Muhammad also taught error, which is not surprising because he had no certain knowledge.
I'm sure you can think of the verse in the Qur'an where he is accused of "repeating the fairytales of the ancients." He had made the mistake of including various Jewish fables (fairytales) which he assumed were scriptural but actually weren't. Have a look for the "targum of Esther."

"you think Ahmed Deedat died because of what?? Come again?!!"

Oh, I'm so sorry. I forget that the Muslim world is either silent about this or genuinely doesn't know.
It looks to many of us that Ahmed Deedat was practically "struck dead" by God for his repeat vicious attacks against the Lord Jesus Christ. Please see this: www.answering-islam....
(Look at the bottom section: Background information on Deedat's stroke, paralysis and death)

"Paul was an ex-Jew rabbi who had never met Jesus pbuh, and I WILL reiterate that..yet you still choose to follow him......what qualification does Saul have, "

Not quite. Paul was a Jewish Pharisee. THIS was his qualification to talk on the Jewish scripture as he would have known it very well.
Paul DID meet Jesus on the road to Damascus, in a vision. "Saul, Saul, WHY are you persecuting me?" Remember?

"you tell me chris...Where did you get this 1x1x1 business from? It's a complete fabrication! Matt Slick of carm.org came up with this flawed logic."

You deliberately misrepresented the understanding of the Trinity. You are correctly quoting the Old Testament (and Jesus's repeting of it) "Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." Then you do the Father + Son + Holy-Spirit = three and then say three is not equal to one, therefore the Christians are wrong.
(Or you do person, person, person = 1 person WHICH WE DON'T BELIEVE.)

Let me say it again. There is only 1 God.
That one God has revealed himself to us as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We say that those identities are "persons."
This means that "The person of the Father" is God.
This means that "The person of the Son" is God.
This means that "The person of the Holy-Spirit" is God.

So, Father is God AND Son is God AND Holy-Spirit is God. In mathematics, this is a BOOLEAN statement. "AND" is written as multiply not add.
1x1x1=1 (not 1+1+1=1)

"You're saying that the trinity is possible because its maths aren't 1+1+1=3 but 1x1x1=1...This is ludicrous simply because each of the multiplied figures is the same figure being multiplied by itself. "

No, the persons are different. So your entire argument becomes false because it is a straw-man.

"Chris, The Nicene Creed says, “We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God light from Light, true God from true God begotten not made, of one being with the Father and through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from Heaven. He was conceived by the Holy Sprit and born of the Virgin Mary.”.....CHECK IT!!! This is not 1x1x1=1 but 1 causes another 1 which both cause a further 1.

Q) A further ONE-WHAT?
A) A person!

Your bit about begetting is another strawman. We use the word beget as it is the closest we have, to indicated the Jesus is the same "type" as his father. Ie. God.

"P.S Don't call it the zabur, injeel etc to try and fit in with Muslims because it won't work, you can go ahead, but we already know that the bible is corrupted by the likes of saul."

Q) HOW did Paul corrupt the teachings of Jesus?
Q) WHY did no-one notice?
Q) HOW did Paul alter the Jewish scripture when the Christians had been cut-off from the Jews? (You have no answer for this.)

"Whatever matches with The Qur'aan we accept, hence the monotheism in ur bible we accept, and reject anything which puts GOD to a level of His creation!"

In doing this, you violate the law of historical precedence. You must use what you already have (Bible) to authenticate something newer (Qur'an.) Therefore you use the bible to authenticate the Qur'an not the other way round.
If I claimed to be a prophet, you would not believe me, because you also follow the law of historical precedence. Don't use double-standards because it will make you a hypocrit!

Chris.
______________________________
DIALOGUE AS OF 16/11/09

I'm busy with work alhamdulillah at the moment. I know he's beating around the bush and trying to justify his statements and there is much to disprove this. It's not about winning an argument but presenting The Truth and leaving the person to decide, however, they are trying to confuse muslims and going on missionary missions to try and convert muslims worldwide with false info and producing rebuttals on websites which are easily accessible to the wide WWW audience such as: http://www.********************/rebuttals/deedat.html What would you suggest I write back now brother?

This is another one they use to justify 1x1x1=1.......‏

please see website, jazak'ALLAAHU Khayran:

http://www.artmanning.dragonflydays.net/paper2.html


ALLAAH SWT says to them: DO NOT SAY TRINITY (1 IN 3) N'AUDUBILLAH! STOP! IT'S BETTER FOR YOU!

Hence we need to tell them. It is SOOO Important as a form of Da'wah to refute this!

Please do e-mail me insha'ALLAAH: armandawahchannelislamtoday@live.co.uk

I'm also on msn with this e-mail to talk insha'ALLAAH,
Brother Arman.