> Question About Jesus's Death on the Cross

[Parture]

Is there any evidence for Jesus not dying on the cross?

[salman]

I've moved the topic in the appropriate section. As far concerning the question, I'll get back to you later.

[Parture]

Thanks. Look forward to your reply.

[Assad]

Hi Parture ,

As we know to confirm any thing in history we need to look for reliable evidence . In the christanity history its a fact that bible was written by unknown authors at unknown time periods and at many different places and much longer after Jesus death.

Jesus did not die for our sin on cross.

The Almighty confirmed this fact in His Noble Qur'an revealed to Prophet Muhammad PBUH :

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."

- [ Noble Qur'an ]


The bible also testifies this act at places but also contains myth . Here is a small comparison which shows that according to Psalm 91 Jesus didnt got curcified:

Let us look at the following Noble Verse from the Noble Qur'an (The Muslims Holy Scripture):

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Qur'an, 4:156-159)"

Now compare the Noble Verses to Isaiah 52:13 "...he will be raised and lifted up....". Notice that Isaiah 52:13 did not say "....he will be RESURRECTED and lifted up...." Not even once, did the Old Testament predict for the foretold Servant (Jesus) to be raised to GOD Almighty after death. There absolutely no mention of any sort of resurrection in the Bible's Old Testament what so ever.
Here are few more translations of Isaiah 52:13:
"Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. (From the King James Version Bible, Isaiah 52:13)"

"Lo, My servant doth act wisely, He is high, and hath been lifted up, And hath been very high. (From Young's Literal Translation Bible, Isaiah 52:13)"

"Behold, my servant shall act wisely; he shall be high and lifted up, and shall be exalted. (From the English Standard Version Bible, Isaiah 52:13)"

"Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and be lifted up, and be very high. (From Darby Translation Bible, Isaiah 52:13)"

The text in all of the translations above clearly suggests that Jesus will be honored and lifted up from crucifixion. He will not be humiliated and crucified.

Also, "...he will be raised and lifted up...." seems to suggest that Jesus will be picked up right from the cross, or saved right from the cross by Allah Almighty. "raised and lifted" clearly suggests that Jesus will not die, nor get crucified, but rather be raised and lifted by GOD Almighty to Heavens.

It just seems odd to see both words "raised" and "lifted", and not just one of them, in Isaiah 52:13, and yet think that they agree with the fabricated crucifixion story about Jesus in the NT.

Why did GOD Almighty choose to say "raised" and "lifted" in Isaiah 52:13?

[Parture]

Originally Posted by Acid

Hi Parture ,

As we know to confirm any thing in history we need to look for reliable evidence . In the christanity history its a fact that bible was written by unknown authors at unknown time periods and at many different places and much longer after Jesus death.

As I understand most scholars, even skeptical scholars, believe Matthew wrote Matthew, Paul wrote his Epistles, James wrote James, Peter wrote his epistles, Jude wrote Jude, John wrote John and his epistles and Revelation, Mark wrote Mark, Luke wrote Luke and Acts, and Paul wrote his epistles and most if not all of Hebrews. All of these were completed in the first century. In fact, the records of the church fathers quote the Bible enough times to almost completely recreate it, so this proves the Bible was written before the 2nd century. Furthermore, most skeptical scholars accept Paul wrote Gal. 1 & 2, 1 Cor. 15, completed within 20 years after Jesus' death in which he said he met with the Apostles James, Peter and John on more than one occasion and testified with them they saw Jesus resurrected alive after his death on the cross. I am not sure how you explain this away or even if you try to.

They said they saw Him, touched Him, walked with Him, ate with Him, and talked with Him. Modern psychology says group hallucinations are impossible, so how do you explain this away? People can hallucinate things individually, but never as a group the same thing.

Not only this they went to their deaths as martyrs for their eyewitness testimonies of Jesus' death and resurrection. That is different than blowing yourself for Allah of the Koran for a belief in what one guy wrote in a cave all by himself and you are suppose to trust.

12 Historical Facts (Most Critical Scholars Believe These 12 items)

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
2. He was buried.
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
8. They preached the message of Jesus' resurrection in Jerusalem.
9. The Church was born and grew.
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

In the Case for Faith and the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel, we hear from scholars who say there is not enough time for legend to have developed either, for nothing in antiquity is more well documented with their earliest sources are so close to events at hand as is the case for Christianity. Compare that to the time lag for the Koran and the Iliad. The Iliad's first document is over a thousand years later. And Jesus is more well documented than any person in antiquity. In fact, the Emperor who died 10 years after Jesus died is documented only 1/10th the amount Jesus is documented within the first 150 years of their lives.

We have 45 early sources, 17 of which are non-Christian (see The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, 2004, or Ancient Evidence for the Life of Jesus or The Historical Jesus, by Gary R. Habermas). Even of just those 17 non-Christian documents, 12 of them speak of Jesus having died or died on the cross. And there are 129 facts of Jesus. I am not sure how you explain this way or if you even try, but suffice it to say, the burden of the proof is on you to show otherwise, because you can't come along six centuries later and take the word of one man in a cave all by himself and trust him who said it never happened. That would presuming too much don't you think? You don't want a religion like that. Why not pray to God to ask Him if He is real, would He be so unverifiable?

The Bible has 40 authors in agreement over 1500 years. Then there is the Koran, the book of Mormon, etc. and many other false prophets. So my question remains: Is there any evidence for Jesus NOT dying on the cross?

Since all the Bible authors agree Jesus died for our sins, especially those who said they saw Jesus resurrected and spent 3 years in His ministry, don't they have authority and are the most relevant data points? Otherwise you call them liars and Jesus too in his words.

Jesus did not die for our sin on cross.

The Almighty confirmed this fact in His Noble Qur'an revealed to Prophet Muhammad PBUH :

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."

- [ Noble Qur'an ]

Given the evidence above, the Koran sounds like it is ignoble. Jesus was a witnessed when he was testified in His resurrection by eyewitness accounts and the Apostles remembered what He said, He would be raised on the third day. The Romans put Jesus to death at the request of the Jews, who rejected their Messiah. You are in full of doubts, because you have conjecture do you not, but what about the evidence given of the 45 sources and what most skeptical scholars agree that Paul was being genuine, that is, he truly believed it? Even the Jews in their Talmud admit they put Jesus to death.

There is Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Ignatius, Dionysius of Corinth in Eusebius, Tertullian, Origen and the early non-Christian writings about Christ, e.g. Josephus (Jewish), Tacitus (Roman), Lucian (satirist), Mara Bar-Serapion (highly regarded in the British Museum), Talmud (an important Jewish document). We have 129 facts of Jesus in 45 ancient sources, 17 of which are non-Christian.

Pray to God if Jesus will witness against you and deny you before His father in heaven, for surely a man scourged, stabbed in his heart and poured out water from hist chest cavity and no longer supported his legs on the cross could possibly continue to live, so as prophesied his legs did not need to be broken like those of the two thiefs who died with Him. The tomb was empty on the third day in agreement with His eyewitness accounts.

Read the Bible to see if it is so. Ask God if Allah of the Koran is Satan. Try praying to God of the Bible to see if Allah of the Koran is telling you the truth or if he has any evidence, any whatsoever at all! Come with an honest heart to determine if there is evidence, and if there is none be open to God to move in the right direction, that He can move you.

The bible also testifies this act at places but also contains myth . Here is a small comparison which shows that according to Psalm 91 Jesus didnt got curcified:

Let us look at the following Noble Verse from the Noble Qur'an (The Muslims Holy Scripture):

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Qur'an, 4:156-159)"

Psalm 91 was recorded in the Septuagint centuries before Christ.

1
Those who live in the shelter of the Most High
will find rest in the shadow of the Almighty.
2
This I declare of the Lord:
He alone is my refuge, my place of safety;
he is my God, and I am trusting him.
3
For he will rescue you from every trap
and protect you from the fatal plague.
4
He will shield you with his wings.
He will shelter you with his feathers.
His faithful promises are your armor and protection.
5
Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night,
nor fear the dangers of the day,
6
nor dread the plague that stalks in darkness,
nor the disaster that strikes at midday.
7
Though a thousand fall at your side,
though ten thousand are dying around you,
these evils will not touch you.
8
But you will see it with your eyes;
you will see how the wicked are punished.
9
If you make the Lord your refuge,
if you make the Most High your shelter,
10
no evil will conquer you;
no plague will come near your dwelling.
11
For he orders his angels
to protect you wherever you go.
12
They will hold you with their hands
to keep you from striking your foot on a stone.
13
You will trample down lions and poisonous snakes;
you will crush fierce lions and serpents under your feet!
14
The Lord says, "I will rescue those who love me.
I will protect those who trust in my name.
15
When they call on me, I will answer;
I will be with them in trouble.
I will rescue them and honor them.
16
I will satisfy them with a long life
and give them my salvation."

This chapter doesn't talk about Crucifixion as do other verses. However, we do know Jesus entered into His creation and became the suffering servant (Is. 53). He rescues us by His atonement on the cross. This is God's salvation for us. Many other verses show this explicitly.

Now compare the Noble Verses to Isaiah 52:13 "...he will be raised and lifted up....". Notice that Isaiah 52:13 did not say "....he will be RESURRECTED and lifted up...." Not even once, did the Old Testament predict for the foretold Servant (Jesus) to be raised to GOD Almighty after death. There absolutely no mention of any sort of resurrection in the Bible's Old Testament what so ever.

The Jews believed in resurrection (ask any Jew), and though the Bible predicts they would reject their Messiah in Is. 53 and other verses, realize the true Jew does not reject the atoning sacrifice of their Messiah. Just as Jesus was resurrected so shall we be. The Jews never thought they would cease to exist, but they believed in resurrection. What does Is. 52 say?

10 The Lord will demonstrate his holy power before the eyes of all the nations. The ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.

How does He do this? Through their coming Messiah who came almost 2000 years ago.

11 You are the Lord's holy people. Purify yourselves, you who carry home the vessels of the Lord. 12 The God of Israel will protect you.

Why does Islam want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and silence the God of Israel, of all Creation, if Israel was the Lord's holy people? What is the vessel of the Lord? Is it not the Ark of the Covenant pointing to Jesus Christ their Messiah?

The Lord's Suffering Servant

13 See, my servant will prosper; he will be highly exalted. 14 Many were amazed when they saw him-beaten and bloodied, so disfigured one would scarcely know he was a person. 15 And he will again startle many nations. Kings will stand speechless in his presence. For they will see what they had not previously been told about; they will understand what they had not heard about.

Does not Jesus who was beaten and bloodied startle many nations, including 23 Islamic nations? Was not Pilate speechless to Jesus for he said he held nothing against Him? The nations are told about Jesus like never before. They understand but are they willing today? Which is why Jesus will return.

To be so disfigured as Jesus was when He was scourged before being put to death, He was surely brought to His death as Is. 53 testifies He would be.

He was humiliated. His resurrection on the third day was not right from the moment of His death on the cross but on the third day. Very plain.

Is. 52.17 reads "exalted and extolled". To be exalted is to be placed above all men and put before the right hand of the Father. To be lifted up is to be raised up, because he was put down by his death on the cross. Now you contend that His lifting up does not necessitate He had to die, but Is. 52 & 53 say He was scourged and died for us, so this is how you know His lifting up was as the consequence of His being brought down. Amen.

Jesus conquered death and so shat those who accept Him as their Lord and Savior. It's interesting to note Islam says Jesus will judge you, because even Islam is convicted by Jesus but they purport a false Jesus who does not die for your sins. But remember, Is. 53,

Who has believed our message?

To whom will the Lord reveal his saving power? 2 My servant grew up in the Lord's presence like a tender green shoot, sprouting from a root in dry and sterile ground. There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance, nothing to attract us to him. 3 He was despised and rejected-a man of sorrows, acquainted with bitterest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way when he went by. He was despised, and we did not care.

4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows (ATONEMENT) that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God for his own sins! 5 But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! 6 All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him the guilt and sins of us all (PERFECT SACRIFICE).

7 He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter (DIED ON THE CROSS). And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. 8 From prison and trial they led him away to his death. But who among the people realized that he was dying for their sins (ATONEMENT)-that he was suffering their punishment? 9 He had done no wrong, and he never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal (PUT IN THE TOMB, NOT RAISED UP IMMEDIATELY); he was put in a rich man's grave.

10 But it was the Lord's good plan to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs (CHRISTIANS). He will enjoy a long life, and the Lord's plan will prosper in his hands. 11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of what he has experienced, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins (ATONEMENT). 12 I will give him the honors of one who is mighty and great, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners (ATONEMENT).

I'm still left with the same question unanswered by yourself, what evidence do you have for Jesus not dying on the cross, or for that matter Jesus not atoning for your sins, and how do you overturn all this evidence given?

[Parture]

I added my response here also Acid, and ask you to respond to this Islamic woman who turned from Islam and now believes in Jesus Christ (short video - second bottom on the right).

[salman]

As-Salamu 'Alaykum

I seek refuge in Allah Ta'ala from my nafs and the cursed Shatan. With the Name Of Allah, Ar-Rahman (The Bestower Of Mercy), Ar-Raheem (The Most Merciful), I start writing; Seeking His Help and His Blessings.

Respected questioner, Parture, the burden of proof lies upon the person who claims something. For example, if I say Islam is the true deen (way of life) of God, then I need to show that it is in fact the true deen of God, not other way around. Similarly, Christians' claim that Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross and was resurrected must be proved. It's not the job of non-Christians to disapprove it because you can't disapprove something unless it is supposedly approved.

Now, the source of Christians' claim is the Bible. So, the Bible said it and then Christians' say these many historians agree; therefore, historical evidence prove our claim, the Biblical traditions. Hence, when Muslims say that Jesus (peace be upon him) didn't die on the cross, we're wrong. However, there're few problems with this argument

1 - Biblical traditions regarding this issue are not consistent; as they time passes we see the evolution in the story mentioned by the Gospel writers.

2 - There're are no eye witnesses

3 - There's no evidence that Jesus (peace be upon him) did die on the cross. The claim that he would have died on the cross due to crucifixion methods etc isn't enough to prove it because there's a possibility that he survived.

4 - All of the historical evidences are based on Biblical traditions; hence, if the original traditions aren't trustworthy then what is the basis of historical evidences which are derived from them.

5 - Historians concluded that Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross because there's no way he could have been saved but both Muslims and Christians believe in miracles; so, why couldn't he been saved as we (Muslims) believe in what the Qur'an say.

So you see Christians can't prove their claim; thus as a result the opposite of the claim is true: Jesus (peace be upon him) didn't die on the cross.

[salman]

@Parture
it wouldn't be wise of you to use slandering language against the Qur'an or Allah Ta'ala because as a result you'll be breaking our rules and you could very well be banned. Please edit your post; we can discuss this in peaceful and respectable environment.

Originally Posted by Parture

I added my response here also Acid, and ask you to respond to this Islamic woman who turned from Islam and now believes in Jesus Christ (short video - second bottom on the right).

How would you respond to thousands of Christians embracing Islam? Logically and rationally speaking, people leaving/accepting a belief doesn't disapprove/approve that belief; this is well known logical fallacy: appealing to belief.

btw, how did you find out about our website?

[Assad]

Thank you for your interest in Islam,

Regarding your advice , I asked the God that If Allah is the True God , I asked the God of the Bible ( Bible which was a book given to Jesus by God ) and the answer came that Qur'an is the final Message of God! So I ask you to repent and believe in Allah , The Lord of the Universe.

I am already engaged in a debate so I could not entertain your response and just to tell that the video of the Muslim woman turning to Christianity is fake :) Yes it is.

Matthew wrote Matthew and all that okay if i accept this for the sake of discussion then this doesnt constitutes as any evidence! A jewish guy wrote a book that Jesus after curcifiction came to live , lived with him and taught him and then later went to India to do preaching there and is still burried there. In India people do actually have a Tomb Of Jesus ! And they all have evidence in the form of the book !

So you only have the truth of a lie which God Willing I have the time then I will reply it to you.

Best Regards & Stay in touch.

[Assad]

First of all, it is important to know that according to the New Testament itself, all of Jesus' Disciples fled for their lives on the night of crucifixion. None of them witnessed Jesus' crucifixion except for one, that is Saint Peter! He was the lone and only witness of the actual crucifixion event. Let us look at what the Bible's New Testament says:
Matthew 26:34-35, 55-57, 69-75
34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.
.......
55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.
69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.
70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.
71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.
73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.
74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Now as we clearly see, Peter did witness the so-called crucifixion event. He was present there. The only thing that saved him from death is his denial that he knew Jesus. Otherwise, he would've got crucified that night.