Ponderings of a Dhimmi

This is a discussion on Ponderings of a Dhimmi within the Christianity and Judaism forums, part of the iDawah Refutations Discussion category; I'd like to summarize the things I have learned from this forum and from other Islamic websites. Please correct me if there is anything I ...


As-Salamu 'Alaykum (Peace be upon you)! Welcome to the Islamic-Life Forums

Islamic-Life Forums is a Muslim community dedicated to Islamic discussions, Islamic Dawah, Islamic articles, Islamic responses/refutations to Islamic misconceptions and Islamic-Life Forums presents correct understanding of Islamic way of life to both Muslims and Non-Muslims. You can also download free Islamic books, Islamic video and audio lectures, Islamic nasheeds. To gain full access to Islamic-Life Forums you must register for a free account. As a register member you will be able to:
  • Participate in discussions, start new topics and vote in polls
  • communicate privately with other members (PM)
  • upload books, nasheeds, pictures, videos etc. and help Islamic-Life staff with their Islamic projects
All this and much more is available to you absolutely for free when you register for an account, so join our community today! If you are unfamiliar with forums' features or a new visitor then find answers to your questions in our FAQ. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Islamic-Life Arcade Downloads Glorious Qur'an
Host Image
Go Back   Islamic-Life Forums  > iDawah Refutations Discussion  > Christianity and Judaism
Register Forum Rules FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Tags
dhimmi pondering

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-12-2009, 02:34 AM   #1
Full Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 126
Gender: Female
Way of life: Christian
Thanks: 7
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default Ponderings of a Dhimmi

I'd like to summarize the things I have learned from this forum and from other Islamic websites. Please correct me if there is anything I have misconstrued.


Allah created human beings to worship him, and he tests them in a variety of ways. These tests are not for his benefit but ours. On the day of judgment, our “test results” will be presented to us in order to show why most people are going to hell and why a select few are ascending to heaven. For those of us who have failed the test (like me who follows the corrupted word of Allah rather than the new-and-improved one), we will be punished for our failure. However, the purpose of this punishment is not correction but torture. I will not be given a chance to learn my lesson and correct my mistakes. I must endure horrific physical torment for all eternity because I believed in the trustworthiness of one version of Allah's word over another...and I believed in the wrong one.


Allah sent his word down to certain humans in the form of books. These books were revealed by Allah through “direct revelation,” which involves Allah giving Gabriel a message who then conveys the message to a chosen human being, and “indirect revelation,” which involves Allah personally speaking to someone “behind a veil” or inspiring someone in the form of a dream or vision. Although Allah is not in this world and remains separate from humans, he is able to inspire them. How he does this is unknown.


Allah provides eternal guidance through these books spoken by his prophets even if those words were revealed at a particular time for a particular situation. In order to apply the historical, situational guidance from Allah to the modern world, one relies upon the understanding of the prophet's closest companions (who lived contemporaneously to the time of revelation) and the interpretations of the scholars who have studied the understandings of the prophet and his companions.


When Allah's final prophet, the living Word of Allah, began to recite his revelations, his message was one that called people to the one, true God. He proclaimed that his God was the same God of the Jews and Christians, and that his followers (Muslims) as well as the People of the Book would be rewarded by God and never fear or grieve.[1][2] He even stated that the nearest in love to Muslims are the Christians.[3] He informed his followers that his message confirmed the scriptures that the Jews and Christians still had with them,[4] and that he was prophesied in those scriptures.[5]


When the neighboring Jews confronted the new prophet with their scriptures, they were accused of erasing the words that had prophesied about him.[6] According to Muslims, centuries before their prophet was born, the scriptures were corrupted by the very people who believed in those scriptures and their divine origin. The Jews removed the prophecies about Muhammad, and the Christians corrupted the gospel into a message about salvation through the Messiah.


However, on multiple occasions Muhammad confirmed the legitimacy of the previous scriptures[7][8][9] and even sentenced people to death based on those scriptures.[10][11] It was only later in his prophethood that Muhammad condemned the beliefs of Christians despite the fact that those beliefs were based on 1st century AD scriptures written by Christians.


Even if those scriptures had been corrupted long before the 7th century Christians were born, they were condemned for following them. Muslims claim that prior to Islam the Christians and Jews who followed their scriptures, albeit corrupted, will not be judged for doing so in their ignorance. Instead, it is the Christians and Jews who have been informed about Islam that will be held accountable for continuing in their disbelief by following the corrupted scriptures. The Quran, however, states that it has always existed and that all the prophets including Moses and Jesus were Muslims. In other words, Judaism and Christianity are heretical off-shoots of Islam and not true religions of Allah at all.


But thanks to ignorance, Christians and Jews from the pre-Islamic period can still go to heaven despite their adherence to heresy. The question remains, however, of what the reward or punishment is for post-Christ Jews. It seems that Jews became “apostates” upon rejecting the prophet 'Isa. Likewise, Christians became “apostates” upon rejecting prophet Muhammad. This leaves one wondering if these prophets were truly blessings or curses. Ignorance becomes a “saving grace” for pre-Islamic Christians and pre-Christ Jews.


Aside from these theological conundrums, the Christian is informed that everything she has believed is a lie. The joy, love, peace, and comfort she experienced after believing in Jesus as her savior and confessing with her mouth that he is Lord was not the Holy Spirit but a djinn. She is told that her faith in God is not enough to save her because she commits the unforgivable sin of shirk—believing that God sent His Son Jesus to save her from eternal destruction. She is told that eating pork is a sin, but eating crab or rat or shark is not. She is told that listening to music is a sin, but sleeping with married (female) captives is not. She is told that dancing in public is immoral, but owning slaves is not. She is told that Satan urinates in her ear when she oversleeps, and angels curse her until morning when she tells her husband she's not in the mood for sex. Her faith in Christ Jesus is condemned as polytheism, but kissing a sacred stone and participating in practices that pagans had also followed are purely monotheistic.


Although she knows that logic has boundaries, she does not understand why she must have faith in what is plainly illogical to her mind. She is told that she is sinning by not believing in these things, and Allah curses her as the worst of beasts for it. Her love for and faith in God is deemed “not enough.” Allah hates her despite the fact that she loves Him.


~TheBoxer



Sources:

  1. Quran 2:62
  2. Quran 5:69
  3. Quran 5:82
  4. Quran 7:157
  5. Quran 10:94-95
  6. Quran 2:79
  7. Quran 5:43, 5:46-48
  8. Quran 2:40-41
  9. Quran 2:89
  10. Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 809
  11. Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 825
TheBoxer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 10:14 AM   #2
salafist
 
al-boriqee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 950
Gender: Male
Way of life: Muslim
Thanks: 5
Thanked 227 Times in 172 Posts
Default Re: Ponderings of a Dhimmi

what I will do inshallah, is to recycle the rhetoric above, in a more accurate and proper light.
al-boriqee is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to al-boriqee For This Useful Post:
Old 10-12-2009, 11:49 AM   #3
Full Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 126
Gender: Female
Way of life: Christian
Thanks: 7
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default Re: Ponderings of a Dhimmi

Quote:
Originally Posted by al-boriqee View Post
what I will do inshallah, is to recycle the rhetoric above, in a more accurate and proper light.
What's "rhetoric" about it? I didn't lie, and I certainly wasn't trying to persuade anyone about anything. Please point out the parts I have misunderstood and misrepresented and explain them correctly.
TheBoxer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 02:25 PM   #4
Co-Administrator
 
Abdul-Fattah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Belgium, Gent
Posts: 659
Gender: Male
Way of life: Muslim
Thanks: 17
Thanked 173 Times in 123 Posts
Default Re: Ponderings of a Dhimmi

Quote:
Allah created human beings to worship him, and he tests them in a variety of ways.
True
Quote:
These tests are not for his benefit but ours.
I wouldn't say its for our benefit since obviously this will not benefit everybody. The test, is for the sake of justice, so that no person can claim that he hasn't been given a chance. And Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.
Quote:
On the day of judgment, our “test results” will be presented to us in order to show why most people are going to hell and why a select few are ascending to heaven.
True
Quote:
For those of us who have failed the test (like me who follows the corrupted word of Allah rather than the new-and-improved one), we will be punished for our failure.
With the exception of a few people which have been mentioned in the hadeeth or Qur'an. We can never with certainty know if a person will go to heaven or hell.

Quote:
However, the purpose of this punishment is not correction but torture. I will not be given a chance to learn my lesson and correct my mistakes. I must endure horrific physical torment for all eternity ...
True, as it is in christianity and catholisism as well.

Quote:
...because I believed in the trustworthiness of one version of Allah's word over another...and I believed in the wrong one.
That's not really the reason. The reason a Christian for example might be punished are however plentyfull.
*) For taking Jesus, as son of God, which is a form of shirk (=sin, meaning ascribing partners to God).
*) Feeling safe against God's plan (believeing one is saved, immune simply from asserting faith, without being judged for ones actions) which is also a form of shirk.
*) Worshiping the scolars.
“They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah)…” (At-Tawbah, 9:31)
After this verse had been revealed, Uday bin Haatim, who was a Christian at the time, said to the Messenger of Allah, “They (Christians and Jews) do not worship them (their priests and rabbis).” To which, the Prophet (SAW) replied, “They certainly did! Verily, they (the rabbis and priests) used to forbid what was halaal for them (their followers), and permit what was haraam for them, and they used to obey them. That is how they (the Jews and Christians) used to worship them.”
...

Quote:
Allah sent his word down to certain humans in the form of books. These books were revealed by Allah through “direct revelation,” which involves Allah giving Gabriel a message who then conveys the message to a chosen human being, and “indirect revelation,” which involves Allah personally speaking to someone “behind a veil” or inspiring someone in the form of a dream or vision. Although Allah is not in this world and remains separate from humans, he is able to inspire them. How he does this is unknown.
true

Quote:
Allah provides eternal guidance through these books spoken by his prophets even if those words were revealed at a particular time for a particular situation. In order to apply the historical, situational guidance from Allah to the modern world, one relies upon the understanding of the prophet's closest companions (who lived contemporaneously to the time of revelation) and the interpretations of the scholars who have studied the understandings of the prophet and his companions.
We don't rely rely on them literarly, since we don't follow their personal opinion. These scolars and close campanion always gave their evidence when explaining the verses, and didn't explain out of their own opinion.

Quote:
When Allah's final prophet, the living Word of Allah
Muhammed, peace be upon him, is not seen as "the word". He is not the message, only the messenger.

Quote:
, began to recite his revelations, his message was one that called people to the one, true God. He proclaimed that his God was the same God of the Jews and Christians, and that his followers (Muslims) as well as the People of the Book would be rewarded by God and never fear or grieve.[1][2]
tThis refered to those who lived before the time of prophet Muhammed. Since they passed away, the "never fear or grieve" refers to the hereafter.
see: Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Quote:
He even stated that the nearest in love to Muslims are the Christians.[3]
Not closest to, in terms of simularity. Rather but closest to being loving towards muslims.

Quote:
He informed his followers that his message confirmed the scriptures that the Jews and Christians still had with them,[4]
I think you might have had a typo in referance?
[4] Quran 7:157 => "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."
Eitherway, in the many verses where Allah subhana wa ta'ala speaks of confirming that which was sent before (the thorah and injeel). Then this refers to the origenal version, and not the ones writen down by mankind. Those writen by man were already corrupted in the time of the prophet muhammed (peace be upon him).
Quote:
and that he was prophesied in those scriptures.[5]
True

Quote:
When the neighboring Jews confronted the new prophet with their scriptures, they were accused of erasing the words that had prophesied about him.[6] According to Muslims, centuries before their prophet was born, the scriptures were corrupted by the very people who believed in those scriptures and their divine origin.
Obviously wheter those who corrupted it genuinly believed is debatable.

Quote:
The Jews removed the prophecies about Muhammad, and the Christians corrupted the gospel into a message about salvation through the Messiah.
True, although especially in the bible, many indications can still be found.

Quote:
However, on multiple occasions Muhammad confirmed the legitimacy of the previous scriptures[7][8][9] and even sentenced people to death based on those scriptures.
He only sentenced the people of those books. For example, if a jew commited a crime, in some occasions, rather then sentencing trough the Quran, he would be sentenced according to the law of the thorah (which in those specific cases was actually the same). This however doesn't eman that the total book is validated.

Quote:
[10][11] It was only later in his prophethood that Muhammad condemned the beliefs of Christians despite the fact that those beliefs were based on 1st century AD scriptures written by Christians.
The beliefs (like belief in trinity for example) had been condemned from the very beginning, and not later on.

Quote:
Even if those scriptures had been corrupted long before the 7th century Christians were born, they were condemned for following them.
Yes, but each person for his/her own actions, and not for each others. For example, a person who altered the scripture was condemned for altering it, and a person who followed it, knowing that it was altered was condemnded for taking the scolars as partners to God.

Quote:
Muslims claim that prior to Islam the Christians and Jews who followed their scriptures, albeit corrupted, will not be judged for doing so in their ignorance. Instead, it is the Christians and Jews who have been informed about Islam that will be held accountable for continuing in their disbelief by following the corrupted scriptures.
Not prior to "Islam" but instead prior to muhammed's (peace be upon him) prophecy.
Quote:
The Quran, however, states that it has always existed and that all the prophets including Moses and Jesus were Muslims. In other words, Judaism and Christianity are heretical off-shoots of Islam and not true religions of Allah at all.
True

Quote:
But thanks to ignorance, Christians and Jews from the pre-Islamic period can still go to heaven despite their adherence to heresy.
No, not when they commit heresy. The verse has a few clausules:
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 2:62
So next to being christian/jew/sabian it is also required they "believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness" If they believed in trinity for example, it is not certain that they can be seen as believeing in tawheed (=monotheism). And I'm not sure, and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.

Quote:
The question remains, however, of what the reward or punishment is for post-Christ Jews. It seems that Jews became “apostates” upon rejecting the prophet 'Isa. Likewise, Christians became “apostates” upon rejecting prophet Muhammad. This leaves one wondering if these prophets were truly blessings or curses. Ignorance becomes a “saving grace” for pre-Islamic Christians and pre-Christ Jews.
those that reject a prophet, after clear signs have come to them, are obviously not among those mentioned in that verse, again the clausules make sure of that.

Quote:
Aside from these theological conundrums
I take it they are solved by my reply?

Quote:
, the Christian is informed that everything she has believed is a lie.
Some of it
Quote:
The joy, love, peace, and comfort she experienced after believing in Jesus as her savior
Yes, this is deception from the shaytaans. They much rather would have you at ease, since it's easier then to misguide you.
Quote:
and confessing with her mouth that he is Lord was not the Holy Spirit but a djinn.
Euhm, I'm confused wasn't that you?
Quote:
She is told that her faith in God is not enough to save her because she commits the unforgivable sin of shirk—believing that God sent His Son Jesus to save her from eternal destruction.
Yes shirk is a major sin. In a way one could consider it, taking or apointing to others what rightfully belongs to God.
Quote:
She is told that eating pork is a sin,
True
Quote:
but eating crab or rat or shark is not.
I think there might be disagreement among the scolars. But if I'm not mistaken they are not allowed either.

Quote:
She is told that listening to music is a sin, but sleeping with married (female) captives is not. She is told that dancing in public is immoral, but owning slaves is not. She is told that Satan urinates in her ear when she oversleeps, and angels curse her until morning when she tells her husband she's not in the mood for sex.
Taking things comlpetely out of context here, by putting up one thing against another making them seem unfair. If you actually study the reasons behind these things, they do make sense.

Quote:
Her faith in Christ Jesus is condemned as polytheism, but kissing a sacred stone and participating in practices that pagans had also followed are purely monotheistic.
Yes because it is done with a monotheistic intention. Like kising the stone only because we are commanded to, not because we worship the stone itself.

Quote:
Although she knows that logic has boundaries, she does not understand why she must have faith in what is plainly illogical to her mind.
I wholehartedly, strongly disagree. Islam is the only logical religion, which doesn't hide behind mysticism, and where every question has an answer, adn every rule an explenation. If it seems illogical to you, then that is because you have a biased understanding of it. It seems you are learning allot about it, but it also seems that whenever you learn something new about Islam, you judge it from your christian perspective, rather then at face value. That is why things "seem" illogical.

Quote:
She is told that she is sinning by not believing in these things, and Allah curses her as the worst of beasts for it. Her love for and faith in God is deemed “not enough.” Allah hates her despite the fact that she loves Him.
If you truly love him, and not the trinity, or some other falsehood, then godwilling you'll find the way sooner or later.
__________________
Abdul-Fattah is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Abdul-Fattah For This Useful Post:
Old 10-12-2009, 04:58 PM   #5
Full Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 126
Gender: Female
Way of life: Christian
Thanks: 7
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default Re: Ponderings of a Dhimmi

Thank you for the explanations, Abdul-Fattah.


Since Islam is the truly logical religion, can you please provide me with logical explanations for the following?


1. How does an invisible creature made of smokeless fire urinate, and why would he do so in someone's ear just because they overslept? Also, is Iblis omnipresent that he is able to urinate in multiple ears at once?


2. Why does Allah forbid the eating of carnivores with fangs but not omnivorous rodents (who do not have fangs) who feed on dead flesh and sharks who are carnivorous and have mouths full of fangs? Why does Allah forbid the eating of pigs but does not forbid the eating of crabs who feed off the dead remains of other sea creatures and even land creatures that happen to die on the seashore?


3. Why did Muhammad kiss the black stone when the Torah specifically forbade setting up a sacred stone and pagan notoriously involved stones (known as baetyls) in their worship of various gods and goddesses? Why did Muhammad circumambulate the Ka'aba while it contained 360 idols when no Jews, Christians, or Zoroastrains ever did but the pagans did?


4. Why did Allah forbid dancing in public and music when the Tanakh records that Mariam and David led dancing and King David wrote the Psalms? Is all public dancing and music associated with sexual immorality or the shaytaan?


5. Why does Allah permit Muslim men to have sex with captives who are currently married without those women needing to obtain a divorce from their husbands or at least notify them that they desire their marriage to be over? Why does Allah permit Muslim men to have sex with slave girls but not require that they marry them or keep them in their households with the rights of wives? Why does Allah permit Muslim men to sleep with their captives and then ransom them back to their husbands or sell them to other men?


6. Why would angels curse me for not desiring sex one night if I am simply incapable of being sexual aroused that day?


I would also like to examine some of the Quran verses I cited. (And no, 7:157 was not a typo. I'll show you why.)


Quran 7:157 was recited in the 7th century AD and was revealed for the people of the Book who followed Muhammad. It states: “...whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),-in the law and the Gospel...”


Notice what it does not say. It does not say “...whom they find mentioned in the original Scriptures...” It does not say “...whom they do not find mentioned in their own (scriptures) but rather the previous, uncorrupted ones...”


It simply says that Muhammad is mentioned IN THEIR OWN scriptures. Why else would Muhammad specifically accuse a group of Medina Jews of erasing his prophecies from their scriptures?


Referring to Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas: “...(whom they will find) with his traits and description (described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them...)”


And when we read 10:94-- “(And if thou) O Muhammad (art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee) concerning that which We sent Gabriel, i.e. the Qur'an, (then question those who read the Scripture) i.e. the Torah ((that was) before you)...”



If the Torah was corrupt, why would Allah tell Muhammad to overcome his doubts about the Quran by questioning people who read the Scriptures?


2:79 was revealed regarding a particular group of Jews who Muhammad accused of changing the Scriptures. If it referred to the Jews of the past, then why would Allah later reveal 5:43 which states that the Jews have the Torah? It says nothing of them having a “corrupted Torah” or the “not-original Torah.”


Why would Allah reveal 5:47 which states that “people of the gospel should judge by the gospel” if the gospel was corrupted? In fact, that particular ayah states that if they do not judge by what is in the gospel then they are evil-doers. So how can Allah command such a thing if the gospel the Christians had was not really the true gospel?


I understand why YOU believe Allah was referring to the ancient, “original” Scriptures but I do not see how you can logically derive such an exegesis from the Islamic scriptures themselves.
TheBoxer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 05:41 PM   #6
Proud Islamist
 
salman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Islamic-Life.com
Posts: 2,168
Gender: Male
Way of life: Muslim
Thanks: 73
Thanked 295 Times in 213 Posts
Default Re: Ponderings of a Dhimmi

if not all then most of your points have been already addressed so use the search feature

the black stone argument was recently addressed by akhee boriqee. if you are not satisfied or do not agree with our answers and responses then that is fine; however, you cannot ask same questions again and again when they are already addressed.
__________________
Fi Amanillah
Wa As-Salamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

The Prophet sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam said: "The Muslim is a unique Ummah among the whole of mankind: Their Land is ONE, their War is ONE, their Peace is ONE, Their Honour is ONE and their Trust is ONE." [Relayed by Imam of Ahlus Sunnah - Ahmad ibn Hanbal - rahimahullah]
salman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 06:35 PM   #7
Full Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 126
Gender: Female
Way of life: Christian
Thanks: 7
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default Re: Ponderings of a Dhimmi

Quote:
Originally Posted by salman View Post
if not all then most of your points have been already addressed so use the search feature

the black stone argument was recently addressed by akhee boriqee. if you are not satisfied or do not agree with our answers and responses then that is fine; however, you cannot ask same questions again and again when they are already addressed.
Before you get trigger-happy with the delete button (as you are so apt to do), why don't you re-read my questions. I'm not asking why Muslims think kissing a stone is not a polytheistic practice. I'm asking for the logic behind Muhammad's kissing of it in the first place.

This is about LOGICAL explanations since Islam is a religion of logic.
TheBoxer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 06:49 PM   #8
Proud Islamist
 
salman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Islamic-Life.com
Posts: 2,168
Gender: Male
Way of life: Muslim
Thanks: 73
Thanked 295 Times in 213 Posts
Default Re: Ponderings of a Dhimmi

^huh? *smack* *smack* - please read your questions again and then your reply

first, you need to define what kind of logical answers you are looking for? Secondly, who is going to define that logic? Thirdly, to be objective, one needs to understand Islamic rulings based on Islamic principles and standards and not your own.

so keep this in mind
__________________
Fi Amanillah
Wa As-Salamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

The Prophet sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam said: "The Muslim is a unique Ummah among the whole of mankind: Their Land is ONE, their War is ONE, their Peace is ONE, Their Honour is ONE and their Trust is ONE." [Relayed by Imam of Ahlus Sunnah - Ahmad ibn Hanbal - rahimahullah]
salman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 07:10 PM   #9
Full Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 126
Gender: Female
Way of life: Christian
Thanks: 7
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default Re: Ponderings of a Dhimmi

Quote:
Originally Posted by salman View Post
^huh? *smack* *smack* - please read your questions again and then your reply

first, you need to define what kind of logical answers you are looking for? Secondly, who is going to define that logic? Thirdly, to be objective, one needs to understand Islamic rulings based on Islamic principles and standards and not your own.

so keep this in mind
Okay, I'm going to dumb it down for you.

Why did Muhammad kiss the black stone?
TheBoxer is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to TheBoxer For This Useful Post:
Old 10-12-2009, 07:14 PM   #10
Co-Administrator
 
Abdul-Fattah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Belgium, Gent
Posts: 659
Gender: Male
Way of life: Muslim
Thanks: 17
Thanked 173 Times in 123 Posts
Default Re: Ponderings of a Dhimmi

Hi
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoxer View Post
Since Islam is the truly logical religion, can you please provide me with logical explanations for the following?
I'll give it a try.

Quote:
1. How does an invisible creature made of smokeless fire urinate,
*) They are invisable to us, that doesn't mean they are bodyless. Sure as their body is entirely different from ours, so would their urine probably be. But why shouldn't it be able to have some sort of method of releasing its excess bodily fluids nevertheless?
*) Recent scientific theories actually suggest our universe has 11 dimensions, and even further theories suggest that a parallel universe could be right next to us in the form of a membrane. Think of two pieces of paper, each with a figure drawn on it. Each figure, limited to its 2D world would think, how can any figure be near me, when there's nothing under, above left or right from me? On top of him is a direction he is blisfully unaware of. I'm not saying this proves or validates the posibility of djinn or anything. We simply don't know if such is the case. However this does show us that there are certainly posibilities. Philosophically plausible ones even. And that it is thus perfectly logical. But I have no knowledge about the unseen and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.
Quote:
and why would he do so in someone's ear just because they overslept?
As for the "why?" Sloth is a sin (it is one of teh 7 "deadly sins" in Christianity as well is it not? As people sin, they become weaker to the djinns (by Allah's permission). Next to misguiding us, they seem to enjoy humiliating us as well. Perhaps it's revenge for when they fail their task, perhaps its to cheer each other up, or an odd sense of humor. I'm not gonna pretend to understand their motives, let alone understand their psychology. I'm just saying, it shouldn't be that hard to imagine they do have their motives, and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.
Quote:
Also, is Iblis omnipresent that he is able to urinate in multiple ears at once?
Iblies is the first djinn to be refered to as a shaytaan, but his fellow djinn, who followed him are also shaytaans.

Quote:
2. Why does Allah forbid the eating of carnivores with fangs but not omnivorous rodents (who do not have fangs) who feed on dead flesh
If a rodent feeds on dead flesh (not all of them do) then it is not allowed for consumption. In fact, say that a sheep is given meat (sometimes they process waste meat in industrial made animalfood, even for herbivores) then it is not permissable to eat that sheep.
Quote:
and sharks who are carnivorous and have mouths full of fangs?
As I said, I'm not sure about shark, it's a general rule that all carnivores with fangs are forbidden, and a general rule that all creatures of the sea are allowed for consumption. So in the case of a sea-predator, one would have to weigh which of the two rules is strongest. I don't know which does and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.

Quote:
Why does Allah forbid the eating of pigs but does not forbid the eating of crabs who feed off the dead remains of other sea creatures and even land creatures that happen to die on the seashore?
Crabs is an even thougher call then sharks. The rule of everything in the sea, is even less strong since Crabs are amphibious. Again, I don't know if they are allowed. Some madhabs say that they are, some say that they aren't. And allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.

Quote:
3. Why did Muhammad kiss the black stone when the Torah specifically forbade setting up a sacred stone
The black stone predates de thorah. All the way back to teh time of Adam and eve.
Quote:
and pagan notoriously involved stones (known as baetyls) in their worship of various gods and goddesses?
Yes, but that has nothing to do with the black stone.
Quote:
Why did Muhammad circumambulate the Ka'aba while it contained 360 idols when no Jews, Christians, or Zoroastrains ever did but the pagans did?
The Ka'aba was the house of Ibrahim. Even if at a certain time there were a bunch of idols in it, it was still a place of high importance.

Quote:
4. Why did Allah forbid dancing in public and music when the Tanakh records that Mariam and David led dancing and King David wrote the Psalms?
It is not uncommon For God to forbid more things along the line, as humans advanced. For example, Jews were allowed to drink alcohol as well, and at first muslims were allowed to, but then the ruling came about it, and we were no longer allowed. In this method, allah subhana wa ta'ala perfected his religion step by step. As an analogy, when you try to teach your kid table manners, you wouldn't start by saying not to put his elbows on teh table from the first day would you? One would start with the basics (like don't play with your food) and then as the child grows up add more rules to perfect his/her manners.

Quote:
Is all public dancing and music associated with sexual immorality or the shaytaan?
Yes, since public implies people of the opposite gender can see you.

Quote:
5. Why does Allah permit Muslim men to have sex with captives who are currently married without those women needing to obtain a divorce from their husbands or at least notify them that they desire their marriage to be over? Why does Allah permit Muslim men to have sex with slave girls but not require that they marry them or keep them in their households with the rights of wives? Why does Allah permit Muslim men to sleep with their captives and then ransom them back to their husbands or sell them to other men?
First of all, I should point out that the only legal slave, can be a prisoner of war. If a nation is at war with the islamic state, and a combatant is captured. Then rather then keeping all POW in a prison, (which btw would have been a large economical strain on society back in teh days). These prisoners of war should be kept under the general population. If the war is over, the prisoners are to be released.
A second note to be mentioned, and which is often overlooked in debates. Is that while the rules state what is permisable for a man, this does not mean a man has the right to rape his slave. He needs her consent. And why would she give that? Well, there's a potential gain for her. If she bcomes pregnant, she autmatically becomes free.

Quote:
6. Why would angels curse me for not desiring sex one night if I am simply incapable of being sexual aroused that day?
First of all the hadeeth says "without a valid reason". What consists of a valid reason is of course a whole different debate. Furthermore, sexual urges can be very strong urges. Depriving your husband of his needs (or a husband depriving his wife of hers!) is not only a failure to meet the responsabilities of marriage, but also pushing your partner away from you, and in some cases even pushing towards the unlawffull.

Quote:
Notice what it does not say. It does not say “...whom they find mentioned in the original Scriptures...” It does not say “...whom they do not find mentioned in their own (scriptures) but rather the previous, uncorrupted ones...”
It is found in both the original as the corrupted ones (see: Proofs of Muhammad's Prophethood in the new and old testament )

Quote:
If the Torah was corrupt, why would Allah tell Muhammad to overcome his doubts about the Quran by questioning people who read the Scriptures?
The scriptures were corrupted, but not all scolars were. In fact we find in sahih bukhari, a narration of events shortly after the first revelations came to teh prophet (peace be upon him)
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."
Quote:
2:79 was revealed regarding a particular group of Jews who Muhammad accused of changing the Scriptures. If it referred to the Jews of the past, then why would Allah later reveal 5:43 which states that the Jews have the Torah? It says nothing of them having a “corrupted Torah” or the “not-original Torah.”
the verse in 5:43 neither denies nor confirms that the Thorah is corrupted. The verse is about the hypocrite attitude some of the jews had in medina ( Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir )

Quote:
Why would Allah reveal 5:47 which states that “people of the gospel should judge by the gospel” if the gospel was corrupted? In fact, that particular ayah states that if they do not judge by what is in the gospel then they are evil-doers. So how can Allah command such a thing if the gospel the Christians had was not really the true gospel?
(Let the people of the Injil judge by what Allah has revealed therein.) meaning, so that He judges the people of the Injil by it in their time. Or, the Ayah means, so that they believe in all that is in it and adhere to all its commands, including the good news about the coming of Muhammad and the command to believe in and follow him when he is sent. Allah said in other Ayat, Let the people of the Injil judge by what Allah has revealed therein.) meaning, so that He judges the people of the Injil by it in their time. Or, the Ayah means, so that they believe in all that is in it and adhere to all its commands, including the good news about the coming of Muhammad and the command to believe in and follow him when he is sent. Allah said in other Ayat,(Say "O People of the Scripture! You have nothing (guidance) until you act according to the Tawrah, the Injil, and what has been sent down to you from your Lord.'') and,
(Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write whom they find written with them in the Tawrah...) until,
(...successful.) Here, Allah said, (And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the rebellious.) meaning, the rebellious and disobedient of Allah who prefer falsehood and abandon truth. We mentioned before that this Ayah was revealed about the Christians, and this is evident from the context of the Ayah.
see: Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
__________________
Abdul-Fattah is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

« What does the word "Messiah" mean? | Christianity Answers the Problem With Islam »

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools


Similar Threads for: Ponderings of a Dhimmi
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Imam Anwar Al-Awlaki - Dhimmi in Caliphate land Qatada Islamic History and Biographies 1 04-25-2008 07:07 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.5.1 PL1
Template-Modifications by TMS