This is a discussion on Ponderings of a Dhimmi within the Christianity and Judaism forums, part of the iDawah Refutations Discussion category; I'd like to summarize the things I have learned from this forum and from other Islamic websites. Please correct me if there is anything I ...
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| I'd like to summarize the things I have learned from this forum and from other Islamic websites. Please correct me if there is anything I have misconstrued. Allah created human beings to worship him, and he tests them in a variety of ways. These tests are not for his benefit but ours. On the day of judgment, our “test results” will be presented to us in order to show why most people are going to hell and why a select few are ascending to heaven. For those of us who have failed the test (like me who follows the corrupted word of Allah rather than the new-and-improved one), we will be punished for our failure. However, the purpose of this punishment is not correction but torture. I will not be given a chance to learn my lesson and correct my mistakes. I must endure horrific physical torment for all eternity because I believed in the trustworthiness of one version of Allah's word over another...and I believed in the wrong one. Allah sent his word down to certain humans in the form of books. These books were revealed by Allah through “direct revelation,” which involves Allah giving Gabriel a message who then conveys the message to a chosen human being, and “indirect revelation,” which involves Allah personally speaking to someone “behind a veil” or inspiring someone in the form of a dream or vision. Although Allah is not in this world and remains separate from humans, he is able to inspire them. How he does this is unknown. Allah provides eternal guidance through these books spoken by his prophets even if those words were revealed at a particular time for a particular situation. In order to apply the historical, situational guidance from Allah to the modern world, one relies upon the understanding of the prophet's closest companions (who lived contemporaneously to the time of revelation) and the interpretations of the scholars who have studied the understandings of the prophet and his companions. When Allah's final prophet, the living Word of Allah, began to recite his revelations, his message was one that called people to the one, true God. He proclaimed that his God was the same God of the Jews and Christians, and that his followers (Muslims) as well as the People of the Book would be rewarded by God and never fear or grieve.[1][2] He even stated that the nearest in love to Muslims are the Christians.[3] He informed his followers that his message confirmed the scriptures that the Jews and Christians still had with them,[4] and that he was prophesied in those scriptures.[5] When the neighboring Jews confronted the new prophet with their scriptures, they were accused of erasing the words that had prophesied about him.[6] According to Muslims, centuries before their prophet was born, the scriptures were corrupted by the very people who believed in those scriptures and their divine origin. The Jews removed the prophecies about Muhammad, and the Christians corrupted the gospel into a message about salvation through the Messiah. However, on multiple occasions Muhammad confirmed the legitimacy of the previous scriptures[7][8][9] and even sentenced people to death based on those scriptures.[10][11] It was only later in his prophethood that Muhammad condemned the beliefs of Christians despite the fact that those beliefs were based on 1st century AD scriptures written by Christians. Even if those scriptures had been corrupted long before the 7th century Christians were born, they were condemned for following them. Muslims claim that prior to Islam the Christians and Jews who followed their scriptures, albeit corrupted, will not be judged for doing so in their ignorance. Instead, it is the Christians and Jews who have been informed about Islam that will be held accountable for continuing in their disbelief by following the corrupted scriptures. The Quran, however, states that it has always existed and that all the prophets including Moses and Jesus were Muslims. In other words, Judaism and Christianity are heretical off-shoots of Islam and not true religions of Allah at all. But thanks to ignorance, Christians and Jews from the pre-Islamic period can still go to heaven despite their adherence to heresy. The question remains, however, of what the reward or punishment is for post-Christ Jews. It seems that Jews became “apostates” upon rejecting the prophet 'Isa. Likewise, Christians became “apostates” upon rejecting prophet Muhammad. This leaves one wondering if these prophets were truly blessings or curses. Ignorance becomes a “saving grace” for pre-Islamic Christians and pre-Christ Jews. Aside from these theological conundrums, the Christian is informed that everything she has believed is a lie. The joy, love, peace, and comfort she experienced after believing in Jesus as her savior and confessing with her mouth that he is Lord was not the Holy Spirit but a djinn. She is told that her faith in God is not enough to save her because she commits the unforgivable sin of shirk—believing that God sent His Son Jesus to save her from eternal destruction. She is told that eating pork is a sin, but eating crab or rat or shark is not. She is told that listening to music is a sin, but sleeping with married (female) captives is not. She is told that dancing in public is immoral, but owning slaves is not. She is told that Satan urinates in her ear when she oversleeps, and angels curse her until morning when she tells her husband she's not in the mood for sex. Her faith in Christ Jesus is condemned as polytheism, but kissing a sacred stone and participating in practices that pagans had also followed are purely monotheistic. Although she knows that logic has boundaries, she does not understand why she must have faith in what is plainly illogical to her mind. She is told that she is sinning by not believing in these things, and Allah curses her as the worst of beasts for it. Her love for and faith in God is deemed “not enough.” Allah hates her despite the fact that she loves Him. ~TheBoxer Sources:
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| what I will do inshallah, is to recycle the rhetoric above, in a more accurate and proper light. |
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| What's "rhetoric" about it? I didn't lie, and I certainly wasn't trying to persuade anyone about anything. Please point out the parts I have misunderstood and misrepresented and explain them correctly. |
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*) For taking Jesus, as son of God, which is a form of shirk (=sin, meaning ascribing partners to God). *) Feeling safe against God's plan (believeing one is saved, immune simply from asserting faith, without being judged for ones actions) which is also a form of shirk. *) Worshiping the scolars. “They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah)…” (At-Tawbah, 9:31) After this verse had been revealed, Uday bin Haatim, who was a Christian at the time, said to the Messenger of Allah, “They (Christians and Jews) do not worship them (their priests and rabbis).” To which, the Prophet (SAW) replied, “They certainly did! Verily, they (the rabbis and priests) used to forbid what was halaal for them (their followers), and permit what was haraam for them, and they used to obey them. That is how they (the Jews and Christians) used to worship them.” ... Quote:
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see: Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir Quote:
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[4] Quran 7:157 => "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." Eitherway, in the many verses where Allah subhana wa ta'ala speaks of confirming that which was sent before (the thorah and injeel). Then this refers to the origenal version, and not the ones writen down by mankind. Those writen by man were already corrupted in the time of the prophet muhammed (peace be upon him). Quote:
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Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 2:62 So next to being christian/jew/sabian it is also required they "believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness" If they believed in trinity for example, it is not certain that they can be seen as believeing in tawheed (=monotheism). And I'm not sure, and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best. Quote:
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| Thank you for the explanations, Abdul-Fattah. Since Islam is the truly logical religion, can you please provide me with logical explanations for the following? 1. How does an invisible creature made of smokeless fire urinate, and why would he do so in someone's ear just because they overslept? Also, is Iblis omnipresent that he is able to urinate in multiple ears at once? 2. Why does Allah forbid the eating of carnivores with fangs but not omnivorous rodents (who do not have fangs) who feed on dead flesh and sharks who are carnivorous and have mouths full of fangs? Why does Allah forbid the eating of pigs but does not forbid the eating of crabs who feed off the dead remains of other sea creatures and even land creatures that happen to die on the seashore? 3. Why did Muhammad kiss the black stone when the Torah specifically forbade setting up a sacred stone and pagan notoriously involved stones (known as baetyls) in their worship of various gods and goddesses? Why did Muhammad circumambulate the Ka'aba while it contained 360 idols when no Jews, Christians, or Zoroastrains ever did but the pagans did? 4. Why did Allah forbid dancing in public and music when the Tanakh records that Mariam and David led dancing and King David wrote the Psalms? Is all public dancing and music associated with sexual immorality or the shaytaan? 5. Why does Allah permit Muslim men to have sex with captives who are currently married without those women needing to obtain a divorce from their husbands or at least notify them that they desire their marriage to be over? Why does Allah permit Muslim men to have sex with slave girls but not require that they marry them or keep them in their households with the rights of wives? Why does Allah permit Muslim men to sleep with their captives and then ransom them back to their husbands or sell them to other men? 6. Why would angels curse me for not desiring sex one night if I am simply incapable of being sexual aroused that day? I would also like to examine some of the Quran verses I cited. (And no, 7:157 was not a typo. I'll show you why.) Quran 7:157 was recited in the 7th century AD and was revealed for the people of the Book who followed Muhammad. It states: “...whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),-in the law and the Gospel...” Notice what it does not say. It does not say “...whom they find mentioned in the original Scriptures...” It does not say “...whom they do not find mentioned in their own (scriptures) but rather the previous, uncorrupted ones...” It simply says that Muhammad is mentioned IN THEIR OWN scriptures. Why else would Muhammad specifically accuse a group of Medina Jews of erasing his prophecies from their scriptures? Referring to Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas: “...(whom they will find) with his traits and description (described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them...)” And when we read 10:94-- “(And if thou) O Muhammad (art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee) concerning that which We sent Gabriel, i.e. the Qur'an, (then question those who read the Scripture) i.e. the Torah ((that was) before you)...” If the Torah was corrupt, why would Allah tell Muhammad to overcome his doubts about the Quran by questioning people who read the Scriptures? 2:79 was revealed regarding a particular group of Jews who Muhammad accused of changing the Scriptures. If it referred to the Jews of the past, then why would Allah later reveal 5:43 which states that the Jews have the Torah? It says nothing of them having a “corrupted Torah” or the “not-original Torah.” Why would Allah reveal 5:47 which states that “people of the gospel should judge by the gospel” if the gospel was corrupted? In fact, that particular ayah states that if they do not judge by what is in the gospel then they are evil-doers. So how can Allah command such a thing if the gospel the Christians had was not really the true gospel? I understand why YOU believe Allah was referring to the ancient, “original” Scriptures but I do not see how you can logically derive such an exegesis from the Islamic scriptures themselves. |
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| Proud Islamist Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Islamic-Life.com Posts: 2,168 Gender: ![]() Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 73
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| if not all then most of your points have been already addressed so use the search feature the black stone argument was recently addressed by akhee boriqee. if you are not satisfied or do not agree with our answers and responses then that is fine; however, you cannot ask same questions again and again when they are already addressed.
__________________ Fi Amanillah Wa As-Salamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu The Prophet sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam said: "The Muslim is a unique Ummah among the whole of mankind: Their Land is ONE, their War is ONE, their Peace is ONE, Their Honour is ONE and their Trust is ONE." [Relayed by Imam of Ahlus Sunnah - Ahmad ibn Hanbal - rahimahullah] |
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This is about LOGICAL explanations since Islam is a religion of logic. | |
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| ^huh? *smack* *smack* - please read your questions again and then your reply first, you need to define what kind of logical answers you are looking for? Secondly, who is going to define that logic? Thirdly, to be objective, one needs to understand Islamic rulings based on Islamic principles and standards and not your own. so keep this in mind
__________________ Fi Amanillah Wa As-Salamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu The Prophet sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam said: "The Muslim is a unique Ummah among the whole of mankind: Their Land is ONE, their War is ONE, their Peace is ONE, Their Honour is ONE and their Trust is ONE." [Relayed by Imam of Ahlus Sunnah - Ahmad ibn Hanbal - rahimahullah] |
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Why did Muhammad kiss the black stone? | |
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*) Recent scientific theories actually suggest our universe has 11 dimensions, and even further theories suggest that a parallel universe could be right next to us in the form of a membrane. Think of two pieces of paper, each with a figure drawn on it. Each figure, limited to its 2D world would think, how can any figure be near me, when there's nothing under, above left or right from me? On top of him is a direction he is blisfully unaware of. I'm not saying this proves or validates the posibility of djinn or anything. We simply don't know if such is the case. However this does show us that there are certainly posibilities. Philosophically plausible ones even. And that it is thus perfectly logical. But I have no knowledge about the unseen and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best. Quote:
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A second note to be mentioned, and which is often overlooked in debates. Is that while the rules state what is permisable for a man, this does not mean a man has the right to rape his slave. He needs her consent. And why would she give that? Well, there's a potential gain for her. If she bcomes pregnant, she autmatically becomes free. Quote:
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Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605: Narrated 'Aisha: Quote:
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(Let the people of the Injil judge by what Allah has revealed therein.) meaning, so that He judges the people of the Injil by it in their time. Or, the Ayah means, so that they believe in all that is in it and adhere to all its commands, including the good news about the coming of Muhammad and the command to believe in and follow him when he is sent. Allah said in other Ayat, Let the people of the Injil judge by what Allah has revealed therein.) meaning, so that He judges the people of the Injil by it in their time. Or, the Ayah means, so that they believe in all that is in it and adhere to all its commands, including the good news about the coming of Muhammad and the command to believe in and follow him when he is sent. Allah said in other Ayat,(Say "O People of the Scripture! You have nothing (guidance) until you act according to the Tawrah, the Injil, and what has been sent down to you from your Lord.'') and,see: Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
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