> The mythology of Crucifixion

[Assad]

The Crucifixion myth.

The Romans crucified a lot of people, and also other religious myths of the time, that predated Jesus, also contained the idea of a son of a god being crucified, and symbols like the cross were already used by pagan religions. Even if people did actually say they saw Jesus after he died, for example the writers of the Gospels, I don't see much merit in taking their word for it any more than avid fans of Elvis who claimed en masse that Elvis was back! These ultra-fans are the ones who I trust least when it comes to such matters!
The benefits of the crucifixion

"The crucifixion story is mythical. The crucifixion did not empower God as God is omnipotent. It did not aid his understanding of Humanity, as God is omniscient. God did not need to become Human to experience Human suffering: God already knew. God is able to judge us perfectly, because God is perfect, just and all-knowing. The crucifixion of Jesus did not improve God's judgement of us, as God was perfect both before and after the crucifixion. The crucifixion did not aid us, as knowing of Jesus was not the point of the crucifixion: If people such as Moses can know Jesus, and this is good, then God should be able to grant everyone the knowledge of Jesus. Note that Moses lived before Jesus was born. For anyone to know of Jesus before Jesus was born means that the crucifixion was unnecessary in order for people to know Jesus.

The historicity of elements of the crucifixion

"Matthew contributed some very unlikely events to the Biblical account of the crucifixion and resurrection. For example, the Guards on the Tomb, the empty Tomb, the Angel, the Earthquake and the 3 hours darkness at Jesus' death are all very likely to be wrong. These side-stories, although not essential to the idea of the resurrection, reinforce the feeling that Matthew was writing anything he could to make Jesus out to have existed, whether such things were true or not."

"In the Hellenistic world the title 'Son of God' is used to refer to a particularily holy person. It is probably this idea that was referred to by the centurion at the death of Jesus.(Mk 15:39)"

"Truly the religion with Allah is Islam"

[Jew 4 Jesus]

As it you falsely claim, the Crucifixtion is not a myth. Lets examine it on a Christian based view. According to the gospel accounts, Jesus went through six different trials before He was condemned to die on a cross. Three of the trials were before Gentiles and three were before the Jews. He was repeatedly put before people to be tried and the whole time He was under heavy guard. They knew who Jesus was. So, this excludes the possibility of mistaken identity. Furthermore, it is highly unlikely that the Romans would have crucified a man by mistake. Remember, Jesus had been performing many miracles and was quite well known in the area. Since the Roman soldiers had Him in their possession during the trials, during the beatings, and finally on the way to the cross, the most logical conclusion is that they did not make a mistake and crucified someone else instead of Jesus. Therefore, we can logically conclude that Jesus really did die on a cross.

And besides, the crucifixtion of Jesus was a prophesy of the Old Testament, fullfilled when Jesus came. It was clearly predicted in Psalms 22:1 and and all the way from Psalms 22:11-18.

And other proof of his Crucifixion from the Torah are as follows:
PROPHECY: Around 1,000 B.C., King David prophesied: "Dogs have surrounded Me: A band of wicked men have encircled Me: They PIERCED My HANDS and My FEET. I can count all My bones. People stare and gloat over Me. They DIVIDE MY GARMENTS among them, and CAST LOTS upon My CLOTHING."--Psalm 22:16-18. (Prophecy given around 1,000 B.C.) (See also Zechariah 12:10;13:6.)
FULFILLMENT: That was written by King David, who died a natural death (recorded in 1Kings Chapter 1), so he wasn't talking about himself. But being a Prophet, he predicted the type of death that CHRIST would die! As it says in the New Testament, "then the soldiers, when they had CRUCIFIED Jesus (pierced hands AND feet), took His GARMENTS, and divided them into four parts, a part to every soldier; His undergarment remained. Now this garment was without seam, woven in one piece from top to bottom. They said therefore to one another, Let us not tear it, but let us cast LOTS for it, to see whose it shall be."--John 19:23,24.
Crucifixion, incidentally, was not practiced by the Jews of David's time. (They killed criminals by STONING!)--But David PREDICTED this type of death for the MESSIAH--a method of execution that was to become one of the principal means of execution by the Roman Empire ten centuries later!
PROPHECY: Here is another prophecy by David regarding "The Righteous", or the Messiah: "Many are the afflictions of The Righteous, but...He (God) keeps ALL His BONES: Not one of them is broken."--Psalm 34:19-20. (Prophecy given about 1,000 B.C.)
FULFILLMENT: MANY of God's righteous servants have had their bones broken, especially in their martyrdom--But Jesus was "THE righteous", "My righteous Servant", as God called Him, Who through His death would "justify many" or make them righteous.--Isaiah 53:11-12. And to PROVE that He was "THE Righteous" Who would "justify many", God didn't let ANY of His bones be broken!
Jesus was crucified on the eve of the feastday of the Passover. To ensure that the bodies of the two thieves and Jesus wouldn't be hanging there on the cross during the Jews' holy day (death by crucifixion sometimes took days), they BROKE the LEGS of the thieves, causing their bodies to sag, cutting off their respiration and bringing a quick death. "But when they came to Jesus, and saw that He was dead already, they did NOT break His legs."--John 19:31-33.
Jesus was "the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the World" (John 1:29), and was crucified at the time of the Jewish Passover, a religious festival when all the Jewish households killed a lamb as a sacrificial sin offering. Right at that SAME time, Jesus, "THE Lamb of God", died for the sins of Mankind. The Lord had commanded that NONE of the Passover lamb's BONES were to be BROKEN (Exodus 12:46), and Jesus' death fulfilled this specific point also!

Read here, for further readings and research: Did Jesus Die on a Cross?

[Assad]

Hi

I wouldnt go into detail considering our already ongoing debate , however this is not a debate
but just a reply to the post. I'll refute some of the non-sense as you claim here.

Originally Posted by Jews4Jesus

PROPHECY: Here is another prophecy by David regarding "The Righteous", or the Messiah: "Many are the afflictions of The Righteous, but...He (God) keeps ALL His BONES: Not one of them is broken."--Psalm 34:19-20. (Prophecy given about 1,000 B.C.)
FULFILLMENT: MANY of God's righteous servants have had their bones broken, especially in their martyrdom--But Jesus was "THE righteous", "My righteous Servant", as God called Him, Who through His death would "justify many" or make them righteous.--Isaiah 53:11-12. And to PROVE that He was "THE Righteous" Who would "justify many", God didn't let ANY of His bones be broken!

Starting with Psalm :

"A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all; he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 34:19-20)"


Here the Psalm is talking about just any righteous man and not specifically about anyone and also contradict the New Testament. John 19:36 falsely referenced to Psalm 34:19-20 as we shall see.


If we were to take the Bible literally, then we will see clear contradictions in the crucifixion story. Let us look at what the Bible says about piercing Jesus:



John 19:30-40:
30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.

32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.

33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.

36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," (see how the OT in this one indisputably confirms the Noble Qur'an's claims, below)

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them.

(The Noble Qur'an, 4:156-159)"

The Verses that reference the Bones:

"A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all; he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 34:19-20)"


As these verses don't even seem to be talking about the Messiah or any crucifixion, but assuming that they did, notice how Psalm 34:20 says that GOD Almighty will protect "all his bones". So, not even an inch from his bones will be damaged according to the Scriptures - again assuming that the verses are even talking about the Messiah!! This is exactly what the Noble Qur'an and Isaiah 52:13 say!
Also, notice how Psalm 34:19 says that the LORD delivers him from "ALL OF THE troubles, which clearly goes against the crucifixion lie. But anyway despite the John 19:36 verse, I still proved, by Allah Almighty's Mercy, Grace and Will, that the Psalm verses actually further proved the Noble Qur'an's claims



In light of these verses It is clear that Psalm doesnt make any prophecy regarding the Messiah and even If we assume it does , it doesnt support the NT. Because according to NT Jesus was crucified but according to Psalm God will remove all the troubles of the Righteous Servant! And Jesus was supposedly according to NT crucified and that means his feet and hands nailed and hammered!! That certainly means that the bones were pierced therefore God failing his promise by NOT delivering all his troubles!

Further more there are many righteous slaves of God who die without having their bones broken , that doesnt makes them God!


Moving on:

John 19 verse 35 confirms Qur'an claim that None of Jesus bone was broken that means he wasnt crucified.

John 19 verse 33 only talks about breaking Jesus LEG and that doesnt refer to broken Bones! It was custom of Romans to break the leg as you say and it doesnt say to break the bone! Jesus was crucified and its obvious his bone was broken!

John 19 verse 34 talks about the roman peircing Jesus with a speak , CLEARY AGAINST PSLAM PROPHECY that GOD WILL DELIVER HIM THROUGH ALL TROUBLES!!

Pslam 91 verse 12 confirms this fact:

"12 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. (If Jesus died on the cross and got buried, then his feet would've struck the ground and the stones on it from bringing him down, throwing him on the floor and burying him).


This clearly debunkes the lie that according to OT Jesus was curcified. I will respond to your other so called prophecies later when get time.

Good luck

[Assad]

Hello


Coming to our next so called prophecy:

Originally Posted by Jews4Jesus

PROPHECY: Around 1,000 B.C., King David prophesied: "Dogs have surrounded Me: A band of wicked men have encircled Me: They PIERCED My HANDS and My FEET. I can count all My bones. People stare and gloat over Me. They DIVIDE MY GARMENTS among them, and CAST LOTS upon My CLOTHING."--Psalm 22:16-18. (Prophecy given around 1,000 B.C.) (See also Zechariah 12:10;13:6.)
FULFILLMENT: That was written by King David, who died a natural death (recorded in 1Kings Chapter 1), so he wasn't talking about himself. But being a Prophet, he predicted the type of death that CHRIST would die! As it says in the New Testament, "then the soldiers, when they had CRUCIFIED Jesus (pierced hands AND feet), took His GARMENTS, and divided them into four parts, a part to every soldier; His undergarment remained. Now this garment was without seam, woven in one piece from top to bottom. They said therefore to one another, Let us not tear it, but let us cast LOTS for it, to see whose it shall be."--John 19:23,24

Having said that, let us now look at Psalm 22 and 88:


Psalm 22 (Young's Literal Translation)




1 To the Overseer, on `The Hind of the Morning.' -- A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?

2 My God, I call by day, and Thou answerest not, And by night, and there is no silence to me.

3 And Thou [art] holy, Sitting -- the Praise of Israel.

4 In Thee did our fathers trust -- they trusted, And Thou dost deliver them.

5 Unto Thee they cried, and were delivered, In Thee they trusted, and were not ashamed.

6 And I [am] a worm, and no man, A reproach of man, and despised of the people.

7 All beholding me do mock at me, They make free with the lip -- shake the head,

8 `Roll unto Jehovah, He doth deliver him, He doth deliver him, for he delighted in him.'

9 For thou [art] He bringing me forth from the womb, Causing me to trust, On the breasts of my mother.

10 On Thee I have been cast from the womb, From the belly of my mother Thou [art] my God.

11 Be not far from me, For adversity is near, for there is no helper.

12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me,

13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring.

14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws.

16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.

17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me,

18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

19 And Thou, O Jehovah, be not far off, O my strength, to help me haste.

20 Deliver from the sword my soul, From the paw of a dog mine only one.

21 Save me from the mouth of a lion: -- And -- from the horns of the high places Thou hast answered me!

22 I declare Thy name to my brethren, In the midst of the assembly I praise Thee.

23 Ye who fear Jehovah, praise ye Him, All the seed of Jacob, honour ye Him, And be afraid of Him, all ye seed of Israel.

24 For He hath not despised, nor abominated, The affliction of the afflicted, Nor hath He hidden His face from him, And in his crying unto Him He heareth.

25 Of Thee my praise [is] in the great assembly. My vows I complete before His fearers.

26 The humble do eat and are satisfied, Praise Jehovah do those seeking Him, Your heart doth live for ever.

27 Remember and return unto Jehovah, Do all ends of the earth, And before Thee bow themselves, Do all families of the nations,

28 For to Jehovah [is] the kingdom, And He is ruling among nations.

29 And the fat ones of earth have eaten, And they bow themselves, Before Him bow do all going down to dust, And he [who] hath not revived his soul.

30 A seed doth serve Him, It is declared of the Lord to the generation.

31 They come and declare His righteousness, To a people that is borne, that He hath made!

There are few important points to notice here:

1- In the red-colored verses above, we see claims that, on the surface, seem to support the Christians' claims about Jesus Christ got crucified and died on the cross. However, this prayer of King David, peace be upon him, proves otherwise, since it was the Prayer of David, and David didn't die on any cross nor was he crucified! So these words, if they were to prove anything, they would prove that the Servant will not be crucified because David, who prayed those exact words for himself, never suffered through this experience, and never got killed from his enemies.
(See also point #4 below)

(a)-
Also, the words in Psalm 22:1 are very common in these types of prayers. Any desperate person who is enduring a heavy burden of punishment or suffering would naturally say or be inclined to say such words.

(b)-
If Jesus was indeed the Creator of the Universe, then why would he utter such stupid and blasphemous words upon himself?? These words, while they're words of desperation, nonetheless remain to be words of BLASPHEMY!






So if anything, these words take away from the perfection of GOD Almighty, going along with the trinitarians' blasphemies and lies about Jesus being our GOD.

2- The highlighted parts above - along with the ample other Old Testament verses that talked about GOD Almighty "lifting" and "raising" the Messiah from death - clearly state that GOD Almighty would deliver and did deliver and save him from the evil, pain and suffering.
3- As to the lie in Psalm 22:16, when one looks at the Arabic and few other English translations, he will clearly see that "death" isn't part of the original text. In Arabic for instance, it says إِلَى تُرَابِ الأَر�'ضِ تَضَعُنِي. which translates as to the soil of the earth you put me (i.e., physically wrestled down by the "dogs" who pierced his hands and feet). But even if we take the word "death" as the real translation, this still doesn't mean actual death for the following reasons:

(a)-
As I mentioned above, if the words in the verse were to prove anything, they would prove that the Servant will not be crucified because David, who prayed those exact words for himself, never suffered through this experience and never got killed from his enemies.

(b)-
Assuming that the text is referring to the coming Messiah, the text of the Psalm 22:16 verse doesn't explicitly say that the Messiah will actually die. It says that he will be laid on the soil of the ground with "dogs" piercing his hands and feet.

(c)-
The text doesn't give any indication that Christ will actually die.

(d)-
No where in the entire OT was the resurrection ever prophesied!

(e)-
The text of the verse seems to clearly be talking about Christ being physically brought/wrestled down by the "dogs".

(f)-
The original text seems to be speaking of poetical, metaphoric and symbolic style. Examples:
i- Christ is a "worm" and "not a man" in Psalm 22:6.
ii- The enemies are "dogs" in Psalm 22:16,20.
We can not use this text to support the lies of the crucifixion and the resurrection, especially when there are ample OT verses that clearly state that the crucifixion never happened!

4- And even if we were to assume that Psalm 22 did indeed prophecy about the crucifixion of the Messiah (no resurrection mentioned here nor throughout the entire Old Testament, and the corrupt New Testament lied about it ), then still given the fact that GOD Almighty in the Old and New Testaments did abrogate and nullify His Divine Promises and Predictions that He even took Personal OATHS on many times, and given the fact that there are ample other verses in the Old Testament that clearly predict the saving of the Messiah from crucifixion or death (see the link above), then we have no reason not to believe that GOD Almighty could not and would not have saved Jesus Christ from crucifixion.




You're refuted here again.

[Assad]

Just to chip in , If I am to take to Psalm literally than it means its a lie because during the so called crucifixion there were no dogs who surrounded Jesus! Its just a metaphor and not literal!

[Assad]

"A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all; he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 34:19-20)"

At the end of the day its talking only about a righteous man and not son of god or God himself.
Infact this prophecy of Prophet David (may Allah praise him) perfectly refers to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) ! As Prophet Muhammad PBUH was a righteous man and even people called him by the name and God delievered him through all the troubles , pesecution of pagans , oppressions and many wars and when the people of Taif chased him and threw stones , God protected him ( his bones perfectly ) and delievered him from all !!


Second thing to note is this verse refers to a general righteous man and not specific event as it says:

"A righteous man may have many troubles....." . It does NOT say that a righteous man WILL HAVE MANY TROUBLES.If this is supposed to be a prophecy then its supposed to point out to any event , give a direction , describe an event. It only says he "may have" so its not concluding to any particular event which here debunks the minutest possibility that we are talking about Crucifixion


This nullifies everything you say , blind faith is dangerous my friend..

[Rakovsky]

ASSAD:

You wrote that Psalm 34:19 talks about any righteous person when it says: "A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all; he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.

But if some righteous people's bones are broken, then could this be a reference not to just any righteous man, but an open-ended reference to someone special?

If my car broke down on the side of the road, couldn't a passer-by deliver me from my trouble and pick me up after I had the "trouble" of wasting an hour? So if God delivered someone from the "trouble" that they were killed, could that mean resurrection?

You wrote:

"It was custom of Romans to break the leg as you say and it doesnt say to break the bone!"

What is the difference between breaking the leg and breaking the bone?

You wrote:

"Jesus was supposedly according to NT crucified and that means his feet and hands nailed and hammered!! That certainly means that the bones were pierced."

If you mean that piercing feet contradicts the bones being unbroken, Psalm 22:16 matches this possible contradiction, saying: "they pierced my hands and my feet." Could a thin nail pierce a foot without breaking it? I also heard that crucifixions tied the person's limbs to the cross, otherwise the limbs would rip off the nails.
If Jesus' friends collected his body from the cross, would the soldiers necessarily have thrown his body on the ground and made it strike a stone?

You wrote that verses about piercing hands and the dust of death "seem to support the Christians' claims about Jesus Christ got crucified and died on the cross. However, this prayer of King David, peace be upon him, proves otherwise, since it was the Prayer of David, and David didn't die on any cross nor was he crucified!"
This is funny, because Peter said that since David remained in the tomb, Psalm 16:10's statement that God wouldn't leave him corrupted in the tomb must be about Jesus. My understanding is that Peter proposed that the verse didn't match what happened to David, so it must be about Jesus who experienced those things.

When you wrote, "Any desperate person who is enduring a heavy burden of punishment or suffering would naturally say or be inclined to say such words," didn't you mean that the words describe being dead and having physical power completely gone like a dry vessel? If the person was still alive, the words would still be an exageration.

I think you meant that Jesus' question "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" is blasphemy, but it could be related to Isaiah 53, which says that God would see fit to "crush" his servant. If isolation from God is the state of being "forsaken," and Jesus bore the burdens of sin at the crucifixion, would his cry show that he experienced human feelings of isolation and abandonment, whether or not he ever completely was?

If other Old Testament verses talk about "raising and lifting" the Messiah, could it mean raising him from the dead and lifting him to heaven?

You said that the Arabic text says: "as to the soil of the earth you put me," and doesn't mention death. The Masoretic text at Psalms 22 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre matches up the Hebrew on the right with the English on the left. The English says that the person laid in the "dust of death." Which is correct?

You wrote:

"It says that he will be laid on the soil of the ground with "dogs" piercing his hands and feet."

You said that dogs refer to his enemies. Can "dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me" (Psalm 22:16) mean that the person is encompassed by both dogs and the people who pierced him, instead of meaning that the dogs are people? It doesn't explicitly say that the person will be brought down by dogs, either. "I am a worm" might be symbolic, but that doesn't mean the rest is, including death.

If the gospel failed to mention wandering dogs or guard dogs at the crucifixion or his tomb, does that mean there were none?

You said that "even if we were to assume that Psalm 22 did indeed prophecy about the crucifixion of the Messiah," it does not mention resurrection. But if Psalm 22 means the Messiah would be crucified, and he asked for deliverance, doesn't verse 26 mean that he would still be delivered somehow and that their heart/spirit would still have eternal life? Doesn't delivering a dead person and giving them life mean resurrection?

Psalm 22 says:

(15) My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
(19) But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
(20) Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
(26) The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

The NIV translates Psalm 34:19 as: "A righteous man may have many troubles..." You commented that "It does NOT say that a righteous man WILL HAVE MANY TROUBLES," so this isn't a prediction about a particular event. However, the King James Version and the Jewish Masoretic version agree with eachother: "Many are the afflictions/ills of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all." Which is correct? If it says there will be a righteous person with troubles and that as you said "God will remove all the troubles of the Righteous Servant," wouldn't the "affliction" of being crucified and the removal of the affliction with resurrection match it?

--------------------------------------------------
Peace be with you!

[FutureAndAHope]

There is another proof to consider that is the symbolism from the law, and Moses. Hebrews says:

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

The Tabernacle of Moses was a picture of how God wanted men to approach him. For every sin blood had to be shed (an animal was killed). This showed how God would redeem his people by the shedding of blood. The blood of His son Jesus.

Isaiah 800 years before Christ prophesied in the following way:

Isa 53:4-8 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

[Rakovsky]

FutureAndAHope,

Hello, and thanks for trying to answer what were for me serious questions.

It seems to me offhand that Heb 9:22 is a good summary of the Old Testament law about atonement. It seems that "shedding of blood" in the context of animal sacrifice in the Temple refers to the sacrifice being killed.

So if Isaiah 53 says that the Servant would undergo a "guilt offering", or asham, then it means that the Servant would be killed.

So Isaiah 53 does use a kind of symbolism by symbolizing the Messiah being killed as an asham.

You said that:

The Tabernacle of Moses was a picture of how God wanted men to approach him. For every sin blood had to be shed (an animal was killed). This showed how God would redeem his people by the shedding of blood. The blood of His son Jesus.

The Tabernacle of Moses was part of a relationship between God and men, but I am somewhat confused about how was a picture of how God wanted men to approach him, since I think the Temple rules said that only person, the chief priest, could enter the Holy of Holies where God dwelt.

But it makes sense that the atonement was a picture of God's re-approachment with men.

Regarding your statement that "For every sin blood had to be shed (an animal was killed)":

First, I am not sure that this was a rule for "every" sin, because then men would have to shed the blood of thousands of animals to clean their thousands of sins. And in fact that didn't happen. The chief priest simply sacrificed one animal by the Temple on the annual Day of Atonement.

Second, I am unsure if this was simply a picture. God specifically told Abraham not to kill Isaac, and Abraham then said that God would supply a lamb, which I think He did. It seems that if God provided a sacrifice, then it would be effective at cleansing sins. A counterargument is that the sacrifice of simple animals might not be capable by itself to clean sins. It is hard to understand how such simple sacrifices would be effective. One idea is that the offeror is giving something up. But in Abraham's case, it was God who provided the sacrifice.

Since Isaiah 53 describes the Servant's asham as a redemptive act, since I think Jesus was the Messiah, and since I think God and his law are eternal, it seems to me you are right that "This showed how God would redeem his people by the shedding of blood. The blood of His son Jesus."


I highly doubt that Isaiah wrote Isaiah 53 800 years before Christ. A previous chapter of Isaiah mentions the 6th century BC Persian ruler Cyrus, so it seems that Isaiah 53 was written in the 6th century BC.

On the other hand, I think that the Servant in Isaiah 53 refers to the Messiah because it calls the Servant a root's twig, which Isaiah 11 more clearly uses as a reference to the Messiah. So I think that the words you highlighted in Isaiah 53 (he was bruised for our iniquities... and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all... cut off out of the land of the living) refer to the Messiah's suffering and being killed as an atonement.

At first I wasn't sure about it, but after reading articles with different points of view, I think that the scriptures predict that the Messiah would resurrect. I wrote about it on my website rakovskii.livejournal.com

Peace

[Margaret]

Rakovsky - ther was no need for a separate sacrifice for each and every sin. The atonement sacrifices covered the ALL the sins since the previous sacrifice. However, this sacrifice had to be repeated each year. Jesus Christ, as the perfect Lamb of God, was the perfect, once for all sacrifice to which the Old Testament faithful had looked forward. His qualification was that, being sinless, he perfectly kept and fulfilled the Law.