This is a discussion on And the Jews say: Ezra (Uzair) is the son of Allah... (9:30) within the Christianity and Judaism forums, part of the iDawah Refutations Discussion category; Originally Posted by algebra My original assertion is that even is jews called ezra the son of God, and christians called jesus the son of ...
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| allah, ezra, jews, uzair |
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| | #11 | |
| Banned Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 325 Gender: ![]() Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 10
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Muhammed Asad who traslated the verse gave the following explanation for the verse This statement is connected with the preceding verse, which speaks of the erring followers of earlier revelation. The charge of shirk ("the ascribing of divinity [or "divine qualities"] to aught beside God") is levelled against both the Jews and the Christians in amplification, as it were, of the statement that they "do not follow the religion of truth [which God has enjoined upon them]". As regards the belief attributed to the Jews that Ezra (or, in the Arabicized form of this name, 'Uzayr) was "God's son", it is to be noted that almost all classical commentators of the Qur'an agree in that only the Jews of Arabia, and not all Jews, have been thus accused. (According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas - quoted by Tabari in his commentary on this verse - some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad, "How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our qiblah and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?") On the other hand, Ezra occupies a unique position in the esteem of all Jews, and has always been praised by them in the most extravagant terms. It was he who restored and codified the Torah after it had been lost during the Babylonian Exile, and "edited" it in more or less the form which it has today; and thus "he promoted the establishment of an exclusive, legalistic type of religion that became dominant in later Judaism" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1963, vol. IX, p. 15). Ever since then he has been venerated to such a degree that his verdicts on the Law of Moses have come to be regarded by the Talmudists as being practically equivalent to the Law itself: which, in Qur'anic ideology, amounts to the unforgivable sin of shirk, inasmuch as it implies the elevation of a human being to the status of a quasi-divine law-giver and the blasphemous attribution to him - albeit metaphorically - of the quality of "sonship" in relation to God. Cf. in this connection Exodus iv, 22-23 ("Israel is My son") or Jeremiah xxxi, 9 ("I am a father to Israel"): expressions to which, because of their idolatrous implications, the Qur'an takes strong exception. Wassalam | |
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| | #12 | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 14 Gender: ![]() Way of life: Christian Thanks: 0
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Aside from grossly misrepresenting judaism's position. But God knows best. | |
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| | #13 | ||||
| Full Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 123 Gender: ![]() Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 0
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| Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem, Howdy, sorry for the late reply. Quote:
You would need to elaborate, perhaps in a different thread, regarding the tradition and its authority and history. Since this is something which I don't think I would agree with, i.e. that there has been some ongoing tradition from the apostles. Quote:
With regards to finding it in scripture, one can find almost everything one looks for. Any passage quoted in support of the trinity is obscure and fits more in line with other beliefs. Moreover we have to remember each book of the nt was in general wrote on its own, all the Gospels maybe with exception to Luke (hmm, maybe John). So we would expect something as fundamental as the tritnity to be in all these works, since they aspire to encapsulate the whole basis of Jesus' teachings. Quote:
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In these witnesses, Jesus is no longer said to be the son of Joseph. This kind of change makes sense in the context of early Christological controversies, where some Jewish-Christian groups and other Christians holding to "adoptionist" Christological views were claiming that Jesus was a full flesh-and-blood human, the son of Joseph and Mary.It then speaks about the words which God apparently spoke at the Baptism of Jesus, some variants occur, some say this is my son with whom i am well pleased and some say you are my Son today I have begotten you, metzger continious p.285-6 This latter form of the text, of course, could have proved useful to those holding to adoptionistic views, for it could be construed to say that it was at Jesus' baptism that he became God's son.Because this book is not focusing on the groups in Christianity it doesn ot say much. But these Christians held that Jesus was adopted or became God's son at a certain period, thus the idea of being God's son did not in the minds of all people imply that Jesus is God or a Trinity. Anyhow, the main reply has preceeeded. And Almighty God knows best Br.al-Habeshi
__________________ If I don't question your article, then slap me for not doing my job. Kamaa Qala Bukhariy Bab-ul-Ilm Qabla al Qawli wal Amal so aman billahi wa Rasulih, Let Knowledge Protect You From Becoming a Diviated Shia or Sufi, So You Know Not To Pray To Awliya But To Allah Alone! You Know He Istawa Over The Throne! And You Know Not To Build A Masjid On A Dead Man's Home! And You Follow Qur'an And Sunnah - Not Qur'an Alone! | ||||
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| | #14 | |
| salafist Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 950 Gender: ![]() Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 5
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| I have one objection to Muhamamd Asad's assertion that I may have to clarify cuz I think it was overlooked this is what he said Quote:
That is a problem Islamically speaking because it is kufr NOT to regard ANY prophet's judgments (ahkaam) as EQUAL to the judgments of the Lawgiver. Why? because we know that as a principle mentioned in the Qur'an, Whatever the Messenger says is as if Allah has said, and this is applied to all prophets, and it is not shirk to view their rulings to be on part with Allah's ruling because their rulings are not from their selves, their rulings are from Allah Himself. Actually it would be kufr not to view the level of the verdicts of the prophets in that light. Of course Im not accusing Asad of kufr, but Im merely just noting here for reflection to others that Asad made an error in judgment on this, maybe because he was not to well grounded on some intricate aspects of the Islamic aqeedah or maybe he was simply caught up and overwhelmed with addressing this issue in the ayaah that he may have forgotton this aspect of the role of the prophets in Islam and Allah knows best and we ask Allah to pardon him, Ameen | |
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| | #15 | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2 Gender: ![]() Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 0
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There is an interesting book on the topic, not do detract from the point of the thread, but I thought it is relevant to the discussion. Algebra, why don't you take a look through it. | |
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| | #16 | ||||||||||
| salafist Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 950 Gender: ![]() Way of life: Muslim Thanks: 5
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as a former christian, could you ask me where this tradition of the apostles could be found. What denomination are you if I may ask? Quote:
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1. not really 2. whatever handful of quotes that is found in these scriptures then a. the earliest works written on the gospels, namely the four canons, were written after the time of these apostles existed, which only reveals that they were written by their students, and not the apostles them selves b. because of the above fact, these writers wrote these writings in greek, a language that has an entirely morphological outlook that expresses realities differently than ancient phonetic languages, outside of the fact that Jesus alaihi salam never spoke greek, and to my knowledge the early disciples did not either, however their students did. However, to come back to the point on the morphological outlook, when it was stated that because of this outlook, it expresses realities different than phonetically oriented phrases, then I will give one example of what Im talking about, actually, I will give two 1. When the phrases "son of God" or "lord" were used respectfully to human beings, in the ancient phonetic languages (like hebrew, aramaic, and arabic) these were forms of high respect to the one it was assigned to. When these terms were looked at in Greek glasses, they took on whole new meanings, meanings that would drastically change the future of Christiandom forever,, because the basis of all Christian based scripture is greek, thus they have been linguistically cut off from the actual source. From the Council of Nicea and onwards, the hierarchy needed that cut off in order to solidify the legitimacy of the trinity. This is how the commonb "lord" and "son of God" reverential clause morphed into a Divine outlook 2. another example. I remember in church one time how our paster was firing it up (religiously speaking) and he went all the way back to the book of Genesis in the first chapters in the beginning versus somewhere (I actually forgot). So the reason why he went to that chapter was to reinforce the trinity theory in the congregation. So then, he referred to one verse where it mentioned "And WE created the garden" or something like that. Anyways, after he quoted the verse, he was breaking down the meaning of that verse from a linguistic point of you, which was that the actual term "WE" was used to signify that it was God AND Jesus who were responsible for the creation of the world thereby giving legitimacy to the Jesus is Lord God concept. However, in the original hebrew, which was the term אנחנו which is ANXNW transliterated, is equivalent to the english "we" which is correct. However, there is one problem English, like Greek, does not have a dual aspect of we like hebrew and arabic have. Like hebrew, the arabic "nahnu" or نحن has two (dual) qualitative functions 1. Jama'a (plurality) 2. sharaf (majestic honor) However, this knowledge is absent within the Christian spectrum accidentally, and from a hierarchal aspect, intentionally. Quote:
So you mean the dicsiples of Jesus were not Christian. Well, yet, your are right. The original followers of Jesus were not christians. Christians are the by-product and followers of Paul's theology, whereas Jesus's personal disciples were not Christians, they were Nazernes, hence "Nasaara" in arabic. The Qur'an does not even address or adopt the usage of the term "Christian", possibly as a silent blow to the one who altered the religion of the messiah, Paul. On this aspect, have you ever read a medieval work by a sevent century Scholar. His name is Ibn Taymiyyah. His work was titled "The correct reply to those who altered the religion of the Messiah" which small portions of the entire monumental work can be found here. Actually, I cannot find it anywhere on the net, so I will upload it for you Quote:
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1. it was only addressing the jews of arabia 2. it never claiming anything other than that they SAY | ||||||||||
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| | #17 | ||||||
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The traditions of the Church are well documented in the remaining five churches that retain apostolic succession. Apostolic succession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia While I cannot vouch for the wikipedia article. I believe it gives a general idea of the authenticity of these lines of teachers going back to Jesus. Quote:
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This is essentially the Trinity. We can discuss Jesus claims to divinity, however let us do it in a different thread. The fundamental teaching is that Jesus died for our sins. Quote:
Even muslims claim to follow Jesus. By your definition that would make muslims christians. However we do not hold this to be true. Quote:
What connection did these groups have to Jesus through apostolic succession? As i stated even muslims could claim that they are following Jesus. But they as the ebionites do not have apostolic succession and hence are not following true teachings of Jesus. ---------- Post added at 08:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 AM ---------- Apostolic succession is only retained in the CC and EO. The traditions are retained in the teachings of the Churchs and the catechisms like the didache. | ||||||
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| | #18 | ||||||||||
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| BismiAllah ir-Rahman ir-Raheem, ![]() much is made of 9;30, without putting in it's proper context, that is along with 9:31. let's take a look, shall we: Quote:
secondly, Ezra is only mention ONCE in the entire Qur'an in regards to the statement of the Jews of Medinah, whereas the Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam in mentioned again in the VERY NEXT ayat! this signifies that the erroneous belief about Jesus is a belief of FAR greater proportions than the statement about Ezra. yet the exegesis for 9:31 DOES imply MORE about Ezra! to wit: Quote:
the evidence, from the Jewish site, Ask Moses: Is it a Mitzvah (commandment) to pray? - mitzvot prayer about Quote:
how did they correct this: Quote:
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they must think alot of Ezra! Who were the "Anshei Knesset Hagedolah"; "Men of the Great Assembly"? - history the holy temples temple personalities Quote:
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so, in other words, ALL JEWS have "worshipped Ezra by obeying him instead of God! i bet none of the non-Muslims here truly understood this! i have spelled it out for you in order to clear any misunderstandings. as for when the Jews "became" Jews: Quote:
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