> Abdul Fatteh Request for user debate: Is eternal punishment for disbelievers just?

[Qatada]

Bro Abdul Fattah, this guy you might already be aware of. He's on LI forums, or islamicboard.com


He's learning logic and philosophy i think. I request you to debate him on issues [whatever u want], because i want to see how you respond to any responses he makes. We can then gather some of the good responses and add them to the refutation compilation insha Allah.


Skavau


I want you to do this because i'm unaware of how atheists respond to muslims arguments, but by you getting involved in debate with him, we actually learn the atheist arguments, and how we should respond to them. Insha Allah this will be useful for all the other du'aat [callers to Islam] in this field of atheism.



What do you think? :) are you willing to go ahead with the idea?

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum
Lol, feels so evil ^_^

Looked up the user, seems he hasn't made any threads himself, recently been active in a single thread, but the debate has been going on there for a while, so there's a lot of misinformation to cut trough. It seemed several posters attacked him there unjustly, obviously pushing him in the defensive. So instead of joining the debate I sort of took it easy to start with.
The fate of Non-Muslims in the hereafter - Page 7 - IB Islamic Forum

[salman]

to put it simply, atheists are most stupid and pathetic creatures among human beings. Look how Eliphaz and rest of his gang was arguing in that thread. I mean where is the common sense of these people when all they can brag about is "being rational, logical" etc. That is why the Imams of this ummah said that if these atheists cannot recognize the simplest of things, existence of Allah with presence of so many signs, then don't debate with them: leave these losers alone. When you dwell in philosophical debates with them, you end up like mutaklimeen.

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum
Akhi, please don't take this personal. But I really don't like your previous post there.
First of al, being offensive and calling people pathethic and stupid isn't helping anyone. You should try to be more constructive rather then destructive. Furthermore, I strongly suggest you to be more open-minded. I used to be an atheist and I used to think almost exactly the same as Skavau did. Alhamdoelillahi, Allah subhana wa ta'ala send some muslims on my path which were willing to debate with me, at the level that I am now debating with skavau, and bring me to other views.

It's easy for a scholar who was raised in an islamic environment being fed all the right information to "recognise" these "simple facts". It's a whole different thing for somebody who was raised with western ideas and values to recognise them with all the tainted bias bleeding trough. You shouldn't be so quick to judge people. As far as I can tell, skavau appears to be very honest, open-minded, fair and genuine. At the very least we should give him the benefit of the doubt. I pray that Allah subhana wa ta'ala guides him.

Not to mention there's even a much more important issue! How can you advice people to: "don't debate with them: leave these losers alone". when dawah is an obligation for muslims! If they don't wan't to answer our invitation that's not our responsability. And sure if that becomes clear, then lets not waste further time on them. But to not even give people a chance is not right. We are in no place to pass judgement.

I hope my words weren't to harsh, this isn't against you personally brother. I just think this is a very important issue which I hold very dear. May Allah forgive me if I wronged you.

[Qatada]

asalaam alaikum


jazak Allah khayr for taking the initiative :D it looks exciting insha Allah

[salman]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

Selam aleykum
Akhi, please don't take this personal. But I really don't like your previous post there.

nothing personal akh and I appreciate what you are saying. I wonder why you didn't like my last post there. Is it my harshness? I have dealt with eliphaz in the past before and I know where he stands. In fact, he is a person who once was creating doubts in Muslims' hearts when he commented on thread about reforming the Shari'ah.

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

First of al, being offensive and calling people pathethic and stupid isn't helping anyone.

Allah addressed these people as being worse than animals. The Messenger of Allah (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam) gave Umar ibn Hisham the title of Abu Jahl (the father of ignorance) when it is known that he was a very wise man. The point is that some people will not change despite what we say or do because it has been already made clear to us and it is a fact which we know. Laying out the reality and hating for Allah is part of our deen. There are no words to describe their crime against Allah.

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

You should try to be more constructive rather then destructive.

Allhamdulillah, I try my best but no one is perfect. I would rather spent my time defending deen from deviant Muslims, and helping other Muslims learn authentic teaching than these ignorant stubborn atheists, who defy logic and common sense. Mind you, I spent great deal of time with these people in earlier stages of my da'wah. However, I cannot entertain their discussions anymore because their intellectually challenged questions are beyond my level of tolerance.

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

Furthermore, I strongly suggest you to be more open-minded.

Allhamdulillah, I try my best; Jazak Allah khayran for your naseeha. Benefit of doubt is given to sincere people and those who can objectively argue and raise some points which would make sense. There are certain people who simply don't deserve gentle responses.

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

I used to be an atheist and I used to think almost exactly the same as Skavau did. Alhamdoelillahi, Allah subhana wa ta'ala send some muslims on my path which were willing to debate with me, at the level that I am now debating with skavau, and bring me to other views.

Allhamdulillah, blessing of Allah; however, as I said not all kuffaar are same and many of them lack sincerity despite what they claim. Our job is not to make sure they enter Islam and all of their doubts are clarified to full extent. Our job is to simply deliver the message and explain to them if they ask. If they remain persistent with their kufr then we leave them be.

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

It's easy for a scholar who was raised in an islamic environment being fed all the right information to "recognise" these "simple facts".

this is true in general but doesn't hold because we know many people left Islam (implicitly or explicitly) despite being knowledgeable and raised as Muslims. There are certain things which we can understand given that we come out sincerely and objectively. The point I was trying to raise is that stubborn people should be left alone and no need to dwell in too deep philosophical discussions with atheists as they could lead one to utter statements which are not from our deen.

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

Not to mention there's even a much more important issue! How can you advice people to: "don't debate with them: leave these losers alone". when dawah is an obligation for muslims!

akh, the problem is that we misunderstand da'wah. Da'wah does not start and end with responding to kuffaar and answering their questions. Da'wah is not obligation on everyone; it is obligation on those who have knowledge and know the fiqh of da'wah. How is one going to give da'wah to others when he doesn't have the tools he needs? Like I gave an example in other thread: this is like saying let me fix my broken wooden door when I don't have nails, hammer and wood.

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

But to not even give people a chance is not right. We are in no place to pass judgement.

akhee, you are jumping to conclusions. I didn't say that we should not give them the chances. I was talking about people who are stubborn and wouldn't change no matter what we do.

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

I hope my words weren't to harsh, this isn't against you personally brother. I just think this is a very important issue which I hold very dear. May Allah forgive me if I wronged you.

jazak Allah khayran and I appreciate your comments

[bordi]

With respect brother Salman, please.........

Brother Abdul-Fattah, thank you

[Qatada]

asalaam alaikum


if u wna get involved akh Abdul Fattah, there's alot of atheists - anti islamic people here, and the muslims need some help.


if you're interested, u might wna check it out and support;

Religion / Politics - Bodybuilding.com Forums



jazak Allah khayr :D

[optimist]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

Not to mention there's even a much more important issue! How can you advice people to: "don't debate with them: leave these losers alone". when dawah is an obligation for muslims!

Salam,

Rightfully pointed out. The character of the prophet worth mentioning in this regard. We know throughout the period of his mission, the Prophet experienced all manner of difficulty. Deniers and polytheists insulted him most terribly, even calling him a magician or a madman. Others wanted to kill him and even schemed to do so. But the prophet used to be so keen to show them the way of Islam and to live their lives in submission and belief in Allah, to the extent that Allah reproached him and said “do not destroy yourself in grief on their account” (6:33). Also;

"Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and fair admonition, and argue with them in the kindest way"

Wassalam

[bordi]

Brother Optimist, the point has already been made

It seems to me you are deliberately asking for trouble from the administrators