> Help to refute objections against existence of God and Qur'anic Scientific Miracles

[Tayel]

Originally Posted by M.T
"Yet you think that for this whole world(1), which runs exactly and precisely, there is no one who looks after it, and no one owns it."

The point is that this is not true. Forget perfection - a ship isn't perfect - but it doesn't even work well for a purpose. How much of this planet is habitable? How many billions of years did it take before even basic life was possible? This universe does astound our small minds, petty byproducts of chance life; but is there any part of that we can actually say "that is so amazing only a creator could have caused it?"

Do you consider the First Cause argument equally persuasive?

riginally Posted by M.T
17,verses94-95.


[94] What kept men back from Belief when Guidance came to them, was nothing but this: they said, "Has Allah sent a man (like us) to be (His) Messenger?"
[95] Say: "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for a Messenger."

This does not explain why God cannot reveal himself. Firstly, it is wrong. Working on the assumption -- one expounded by both you and all Muslims I have met -- that all Abrahamic religions were being talked to by the same God, it simply falls apart. Who, again, talked to Moses? An angel in a burning bush (Acts 7:30). Joseph was guided by an Angel (Matt 1:30).

However, moving on from the fact that it is self-contradictory, it is not an explanation; it's simply a statement. It simply says God will comunicate with us through our own kind - but why? If the proofs you quote are so definite, why make them so equivocal? Why did Jesus' generation get to see him walking on water and turning water to wine (fairly unimpressive miracles in the scale of things) among other things to prove to them he was god's messenger, and Muhammad's get to see him supposedly fly between cities - yet we have to believe it on report and vague 'proofs'?

Professor Marshall Johnson said after he knew that
This misses the point. The argument is not even that the Koran coincidentally matches our knowledge; the argument is that you are simply matching one interpretation of the vague words to something we currently know. I ask you again - if this embryonic proof is so impressive, why doesn't it just go all out and be so specific there is no room for doubt?

"And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)."
[Al-Qur’an 71:19]... The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Qur’an rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.

You've done it again! There is nothing in the "spread out" thing that implies there is a crust, but you have matched up that very, very tenuous link to something we know. That is not evidence of its truth any more than the interpretation (the obvious one, I might add) of it as meaning the earth is flat is evidence of its falsehood.

Also, I'd suggest that we are here in specious roads, not spacious ones...

The ostrich egg quote is marginally more impressive; however, it is also, apparently, false. http://www.********************/Quran...arth_flat.html http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4125625AAvnUvg

15. IS MAN CREATED FROM SPERM OR DUST?

This is an absolutely pointelss theological semantics debate that is irrelevant to what I had argued. That was the equivalent of the argument over how many angels can fit on a pinhead. If you want to interpret "man was made from dust" as implying the Koran knew we were 15% carbon, from water as showing it 'magically' knew we were 70% water and the sperm bit as showing they had progressed beyond the stage of the stalk theory of sex, you've fallen prey to the same problem as before.

So, once again, I ask you: where is there an unequivocal prediciton in the Koran, a falsifible one, that has been or you predict to be carried out? Until then, stop posting vague post-event word games. They add absolutely nothing to your argument.

One more thing - as someone correctly posted above, you cannot quote from the book you're trying to prove as evidence for that same book. Saying "Allah said "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for a Messenger."" is not an argument, as it relies upon the authority of the Koran - the very thing you're trying to prove.


Brothers,May you help me to response,because i have an exam on next Saturday, so i don't have time to analysis his reply.
I'm M,t and i hope you assist me to beat him. inshallah.

Actually,he tries to find any thing anti-science in islam to show it's not the truth.
Muslims say" we have unlimited proofs"

Muslims say" we have unlimited proofs"!! - Page 4 - The Student Room

May Allah rewards you.

[salamfromrom]

Salam

You should be careful with that answering-islam site, it is run by christian missionaries and I have witnessed many, many distortions of the actual meanings of ayat/hadiths in their articles. They mix a little but of truth with a whole bunch of lies, and sometimes it's hard to differentiate between the two.

Having said that, some of the people who have the view that the qur'an is full of clear scientific miracles also go a bit overboard. The qur'an itself is a miracle, we don't need to subject the Book of Allah(swt) to an ever-changing science.

It's of no use to debate those missionaries, they will not understand.

Salam

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum

The point is that this is not true. Forget perfection - a ship isn't perfect - but it doesn't even work well for a purpose.

First of all, whether or not our universe is "perfect". a philosophical and subjective question which depends on your view of perfection, and the purpose of the universe. If it's purpose is to sustain and contain us, then it does it's job perfectly doesn't it?

How much of this planet is habitable? How many billions of years did it take before even basic life was possible?

How do these uninhabitable parts of earth, defeat the purpose of creation? Do not even the uninhabitable parts have a function? Indeed the sea is uninhabitable, but without the seas, we wouldn't have climates. Indeed some mountains are uninhabitable, but they to have a purpose on earth, to buffer earthquakes. The point is, our planet is uninhabitable, and the characteristics fit surprisingly well with our needs.

This universe does astound our small minds, petty by-products of chance life; but is there any part of that we can actually say "that is so amazing only a creator could have caused it?"

Yes most definitly, some examples:
1) rate of expansion after big bang

“If the rate of expansion one second after the 'Big Bang' had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million (0,000000000000001%), the universe would have recollapsed. The odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something like the Big Bang are enormous”. (Stephen Hawking, 'A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes', Page 128).

2) gravity :

“If gravity (released by the Big Bang) had been stronger or weaker by even one part in ten thousand million million million million million million (0,00000000000000000000000000000000000001%) then life sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible.” (Brandon Carter, ‘New Physics’ Page 187).

3) Or how about the physical constants (like speed of light, planck constant). In physics we see these seemingly arbitrary numbers appear, that cannot be accounted for, but are adhered to strictly. Many scientists have expressed their awe for the way these constants caused a form of "fine-tuning". We do not understand where these values come from, yet we do see that if they would have been any different, life in this universe would have become very challenging. (Constants of Physics and Mathematics)

4) But even in our day to day life, if we look at our own bodies and surrounding, there's a sense of awe in all of them. Take for example the fine-tuning by which proteins in the cytoplasma self-regulate: Protein and Protein Interactions

Do you consider the First Cause argument equally persuasive?

Wheter or not it's persuasiveness is equal, is hard to say, but I do find it to some extend persuasive yes. I realize that if I claim "God is the solution to the question of existence", then you could reply: but who created God? My reply in term would be, God is not created, he is timeless. This however logically fits. A universe going back infinitly in time, defies logic especially when considering entropy. A god which is time-less on teh other hand (meaning not inside of the dimension of time) does not defy logic. Therefore to some extend I find it persuasive.

This does not explain why God cannot reveal himself.

It doesn't explain it directly. God created the universe and our lives in it in order to test us. For God to show himself, would be like a teacher writing the answers on the blackboard during an exam. What the verse does explain, is how even if more testable evidence were submitted, (like the suggested example of an angel who functioned as messenger to the people) then there would still be people who disbelief. People do not believe or disbelieve because of their rational evidences. People belief or disbelief due to their emotional inclinations. Islam is perfectly rational, if people would judge on evidence and logic alone, all people would become muslims. But there's obviously more to it then that.

Firstly, it is wrong. Working on the assumption -- one expounded by both you and all Muslims I have met -- that all Abrahamic religions were being talked to by the same God, it simply falls apart. Who, again, talked to Moses? An angel in a burning bush (Acts 7:30). Joseph was guided by an Angel (Matt 1:30).

But the angel was a messenger of the same God. It is just an intermediate.

However, moving on from the fact that it is self-contradictory

Islam is not self-contradictory on a single point. Perhaps other religions are, but don't make a sweeping generalisation.

it is not an explanation; it's simply a statement. It simply says God will comunicate with us through our own kind - but why? If the proofs you quote are so definite, why make them so equivocal? Why did Jesus' generation get to see him walking on water and turning water to wine (fairly unimpressive miracles in the scale of things) among other things to prove to them he was god's messenger, and Muhammad's get to see him supposedly fly between cities - yet we have to believe it on report and vague 'proofs'?

The answer to your question, is that all the previous prophets were all send to a specific nation in a specific time. Therefor, their miracles were all miracles that can only be witnessed by them, as it serves no purpose for us to witness them to (since these messengers weren't sent for us). Muhammed peace be upon him, is the last messenger that was sent not only to his people, but also to the whole of mankind. Therefore Muhammed (peace be upon him) is different from the other prophets, and for the miracles granted to him, there was a need for universality. And the biggest miracle that was given to the prophet was the holy Qur'an. And this miracle you can still see with your own eyes today. You can no longer see the nile split, or you can't see lazarus walking. You can however still read the Qur'an, and witness it's miraculous content. There are many miracles in this Qur'an, explaining things, and making predictions, which have all been proven true. If the Qur'an were not from God, surely you'd find contradiction in it. And teh challenge of the Qur'an to make a single chapter like it, has to this day not been met.

The ostrich egg quote is marginally more impressive; however, it is also, apparently, false. http://www.********************/Quran...arth_flat.html http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4125625AAvnUvg

Akhi, I tend to agree with him, on this issue. This interpretation of ostrich egg is added later on and is not found in early tefsir (at least not ibn kathir's tefsir which I checked, it could be in some other tefsir, which I haven't checked). My advice to you would be to admit to him that you were indeed misguided on that specific issue, but that you still believe the other miracles you mentioned are valid, and that each should be judged on its own merit.

Professor Marshall Johnson said after he knew that
This misses the point. The argument is not even that the Koran coincidentally matches our knowledge; the argument is that you are simply matching one interpretation of the vague words to something we currently know. I ask you again - if this embryonic proof is so impressive, why doesn't it just go all out and be so specific there is no room for doubt?

Because the Qur'an in the first place is a book of guidance, and not a book of science. It only hints to this scientific knowledge, for the purpose of showing you it's miraculousness, it was never it's purpose to teach mankind science. Secondly, this allegation that this is simlpy a new interpretation that is given to match the current scientific development is flawed for two reasons. One: it's a speculative and baseless claim; and two: Even the early Quranic exegesis (tefsir) which were writen before these scientific discoveries interpreted these verses in the same way. So it is not like we have a new interpretation now, this is the same interpretation we had before scientific advancement enabled us to empiricly test these facts.

You've done it again! There is nothing in the "spread out" thing that implies there is a crust,

That is true, but still it is miraculous that it's description fits the actual shape of the earth crust.

So, once again, I ask you: where is there an unequivocal prediciton in the Koran, a falsifible one, that has been or you predict to be carried out? Until then, stop posting vague post-event word games. They add absolutely nothing to your argument.

1. The mountains are shaped like pegs:
Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs? (78:6-7)
Early tefsir made prior to scientific discoveries:
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Scientific article that confirms the shape of mountains:
Beneath the mountains
Article explaining how research confirms the function of mountains as insulators for earthquakes:
Effects of Large-Scale Surface Topography on Ground Motions, as Demonstrated by a Study of the San Gabriel Mountains, Los Angeles, California -- Ma et al. 97 (6): 2066 -- Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America

2. The deepness of the sea:
Or as darkness on a vast, abysmal sea. There covereth him a wave, above which is a wave, above which is a cloud. Layer upon layer of darkness. When he holdeth out his hand he scarce can see it. And he for whom Allah hath not appointed light, for him there is no light. (24:40)
Claims that:
1. Deep inside the sea there is darkness, this has now been tested with diving equipment and validated.
2. There are different waves above each other. This has now been tested with hightech equipment, measuring density and temperature, you can find "layers" of sea.
3. The darkness is caused by the layers. Again this is correct. These different layers of sea, since they each have a different density and temperature cause a phenomena which in science we call: "light refraction". Upon each refraction, a percentage of light is reflected back up. So the light is really stoped in part layer by layer.
(Do note this only acounts for part of the darkness, allot of the light is also reflected on the surface (+-30%) and also some part of it is "absorbed", nevertheless, that this verse does not contradict science is amazing)
(for this verse I didn't look for scientific sources, as I take it the behaviour of light is something widely known and thought in high-school level physics)

One more thing - as someone correctly posted above, you cannot quote from the book you're trying to prove as evidence for that same book. Saying "Allah said "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for a Messenger."" is not an argument, as it relies upon the authority of the Koran - the very thing you're trying to prove.

Not really, I understand your objection, but it does not apply here. It is a bit of a strawmen argument. I did not claim "the qur'an is true, because the Qur'an says it'strue". If I would have said that, you would defenitly have right to respond to this. But that was not my claim, so your reply is irrelevant.

Brothers,May you help me to response,because i have an exam on next Saturday, so i don't have time to analysis his reply.
I'm M,t and i hope you assist me to beat him. inshallah.

Akhi, try not to look at it as a fight, and who beats who. Try in the first place to explain Islam. That is our only obligation.Either way, may allah subhana wa ta'ala make the exam easy for you brother ^_^

[salamfromrom]

There are many miracles in this Qur'an, explaining things, and making predictions, which have all been proven true.

Yes, but you still need a tiny bit of faith to accept them(am I wrong?). The facts are not what modern scientists would consider rock hard undeniable proof, right ?. There is still some wiggle room for differing interpretations, and most scientists do not consider the verses as proofs. We do, but they don't.

For example, if The Qur'an stated unequivocally that ''pi = 3,14159265'' then people would be forced to believe. But God gives us free choice because:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And God hears and knows all things. [2:256]

Why would God force us to believe with undisputable (modern scientific breakthrough proof). Then there would be no real choice, all humans would be compelled by their intellect to accept islam.

Am I wrong in this bro Abdul ? Is there any miracle in the qur'an which can stand the rigorous criticism of unbiased scientists and of which they can't deny its divine origins?

salam a leikum

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum

Why would God force us to believe with undisputable (modern scientific breakthrough proof). Then there would be no real choice, all humans would be compelled by their intellect to accept islam.

True, we are here on earth to be tested. So like I said: For God to show himself, would be like a teacher writing the answers on the blackboard during an exam.

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

For example, if The Qur'an stated unequivocally that ''pi = 3,14159265'' then people would be forced to believe.

I don't know, I guess people could then still reply: "he got that from an early mathematician" (concept of pi was already known to early Greek philosophers). Interestingly, some people even claim they can find evidence that the speed of light is shown in the Qur'an! Although in all fairness I must admit I'm somewhat hesitant to accept their claims as it seems to be very interpretive in nature.
http://www.speed-light.info/angels_speed_of_light.htm

Am I wrong in this bro Abdul ? Is there any miracle in the qur'an which can stand the rigorous criticism of unbiased scientists and of which they can't deny its divine origins?

Well, I would rather say that this standard of "proof" which can withstand rigorous criticism is simply impossible. Even in science, a theory can be provable, testable and falsifiable, and still you'll encounter people who deny it, and swear that it is not true. So I think that an "un-deniable" proof is simply a pipe dream; a contradiction in terms. The suggestion of such a possibility is a great underestimation of the human capability to deny things.

[Tayel]

So,brother what's your advice??
First i want to show my view on this issue, bro salamfromrom believe that we just have faith in Islam as well as others false religions.
Does that true??

Is Quran a miralce??
Allah says in chapter 41,
[53] Soon will We show them Our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? "

If Quran is not miracle till the day of judgment, how could those people who hadn't seen the miracles of the prophet mohammad would believe and have JUST faith that Islam is turth.

If islam is just religion based on faith, why the prophet predicted many events will surely be occurred in the future and we taste some of them.

In addition to, we have to show that Muslims have the same talk on this issue rather (as you've done) at least in such this argument.

So,What i've mean exactly as the sahabah witness the miracles that had been occured at the prophet time, while they have faith in such this modern science, we have faith in what we hadn't seen i.e the miracles and we witness such these recently discovers (Historical or scientific facts).

So,Please brother Abdul-fattah advise us jazak Allah kheyn.
And please brother salamfromrom,I hope you (If you are wrong) to clarify this issue in the forum.

[Tayel]

Brother,Here you are my original thread.
Muslims says we have unlimited proof for Islam

And I'm going to copy this Quoted as a fist point of the scientific facts in Quran"

ASTRONOMY
Whenever I describe to Westerners the details the Qur’an contains on certain points of astronomy, it is common for someone to reply that there is nothing unusual in this since the Arabs made important discoveries in the field of astronomy long before the Europeans. But, this is a mistaken idea resulting from an ignorance of history. In the first place, science developed in the Arab World at a considerable time after the Qur’anic revelation had occurred. Secondly, the scientific knowledge prevalent at the highpoint of Islamic civilization would have made it impossible for any human being to have written statements on the heavens comparable to those in the Qur’an. The material on this subject is so vast that I can only provide a brief outline of it here.

The Sun and Moon.
Whereas the Bible talks of the sun and the moon as two lights differing only in size, the Qur’an distinguishes between them by the use of different terms: light (noor) for the moon, and lamp (siraaj) for the sun.
"Did you see how Allah created seven heavens, one above the other, and made in them the moon a light and the sun a lamp?" Qur’an, 78:12-13
The moon is an inert body which reflects light, whereas the sun is a celestial body in a state of permanent combustion producing both light and heat.
Stars and Planets
The word ‘star’ (najm) in the Qur’an ( 86:3 ) is accompanied by the adjective thaaqib which indicates that it burns and consumes itself as it pierces through the shadows of the night. It was much later discovered that stars are heavenly bodies producing their own light like the sun.
In the Qur’an, a different word, kawkab, is used to refer to the planets which are celestial bodies that reflect light and do not produce their own light like the sun.
“We have adorned the lowest heaven with ornaments, the planets.” Qur’an, 37:6
Orbits
Today, the laws governing the celestial systems are well known. Galaxies are balanced by the position of stars and planets in well-defined orbits, as well as the interplay of gravitational forces produced by their masses and the speed of their movements. But is this not what the Qur’an describes in terms which have only become comprehensible in modern times. In chapter al-Ambiyaa we find:
“(God is) the one who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon. Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion.” Qur’an,21:33
The Arabic word which expresses this movement is the verb yasbahoon which implies the idea of motion produced by a moving body, whether it is the movement of one’s legs running on the ground, or the action of swimming in water. In the case of a celestial body, one is forced to translate it, according to its original meaning, as ‘to travel with its own motion.’
In my book, The Bible, The Qur'an and Science, I have given the precise scientific data corresponding to the motion of celestial bodies. They are well known for the moon, but less widely known for the sun.

The Day and Night
The Qur’anic description of the sequence of day and night would, in itself, be rather commonplace were it not for the fact that it is expressed in terms that are today highly appropriate. The Qur’an uses the verb kawwara in chapter az-Zumar to describe the way the night ‘winds’ or ‘coils’ itself around the day and the day around the night.
“He coils the night upon the day and the day upon the night.” Qur’an, 39:5
The original meaning of the verb kis to coil a turban around the head. This is a totally valid comparison; yet at the time the Qur’an was revealed, the astronomical data necessary to make this comparison were unknown. It is not until man landed on the moon and observed the earth spinning on its axis, that the dark half of the globe appeared to wind itself around the light and the light half appeared to wind itself around the dark.
The Solar Apex
The notion of a settled place for the sun is vividly described in chapter Yaa Seen of the Qur’an:
"The sun runs its coarse to a settled place That is the decree of the Almighty, the All Knowing.” Qur’an, 36:38
“Settled place” is the translation of the word mustaqarr which indicates an exact appointed place and time. Modern astronomy confirms that the solar system is indeed moving in space at a rate of 12 miles per second towards a point situated in the constellation of Hercules ( alpha lyrae ) whose exact location has been precisely calculated. Astronomers have even give it a name, the solar apex.

Expansion of the Universe
Chapter ath-Thaariyaat of the Qur’an also seems to allude to one of the most imposing discoveries of modern science, the expansion of the Universe.
“I built the heaven with power and it is I, who am expanding it.” Qur’an,51:47
The expansion of the universe was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is supported by the calculations of astrophysics. The regular movement of the galactic light towards the red section of the spectrum is explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus, the size of the universe appears to be progressively increasing.
Conquest of Space
Among the achievements of modern science is the “conquest” of space which has resulted in mans journey to the moon. The prediction of this event surely springs to mind when we read the chapter ar-Rahmaan in the Qur’an:
“O assembly of Jinns and men, if you can penetrate the regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate them! You will not penetrate them except with authority.”
Qur’an,55:33
Authority to travel in space can only come from the Creator of the laws which govern movement and space. The whole of this Qur’anic chapter invites humankind to recognize God’s beneficence".

---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 PM ----------

Now let me brother note you what they have said! to leave the fogs. :)

Originally Posted by M.T
Early tefsir made prior to scientific discoveries:
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Scientific article that confirms the shape of mountains:
Beneath the mountains

Article explaining how research confirms the function of mountains as insulators for earthquakes:
http://bssa.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/...ract/97/6/2066

2. The deepness of the sea:
Or as darkness on a vast, abysmal sea. There covereth him a wave, above which is a wave, above which is a cloud. Layer upon layer of darkness. When he holdeth out his hand he scarce can see it. And he for whom Allah hath not appointed light, for him there is no light. (24:40)
Claims that:
1. Deep inside the sea there is darkness, this has now been tested with diving equipment and validated.
2. There are different waves above each other. This has now been tested with hightech equipment, measuring density and temperature, you can find "layers" of sea.
3. The darkness is caused by the layers. Again this is correct. These different layers of sea, since they each have a different density and temperature cause a phenomena which in science we call: "light refraction". Upon each refraction, a percentage of light is reflected back up. So the light is really stoped in part layer by layer.
(Do note this only acounts for part of the darkness, allot of the light is also reflected on the surface (+-30%) and also some part of it is "absorbed", nevertheless, that this verse does not contradict science is amazing)
(for this verse I didn't look for scientific sources, as I take it the behaviour of light is something widely known and thought in high-school level physics)

Those aren't scientific statements. They're really vague and easy to interpret in different ways, not to mention people would have figured those things out anyway. In no way is that remotely close to evidence, let alone proof.

personally brother,I think there's no response except "You are stubborn",Am i right??
However,I would say in the falsifiable proof, that prophet mohammad peace and blessing upon him- was asked about the conquest of countries then he replied that turkey and Romania will be Muslims country,later on,they asked him which one will conquest first, he said Constantinyah, or something like that, true??
What's your view??

1) rate of expansion after big bang

“If the rate of expansion one second after the 'Big Bang' had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million (0,000000000000001%), the universe would have recollapsed. The odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something like the Big Bang are enormous”. (Stephen Hawking, 'A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes', Page 128).

2) gravity :

“If gravity (released by the Big Bang) had been stronger or weaker by even one part in ten thousand million million million million million million (0,00000000000000000000000000000000000001%) then life sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible.” (Brandon Carter, ‘New Physics’ Page 187).

3) Or how about the physical constants (like speed of light, planck constant). In physics we see these seemingly arbitrary numbers appear, that cannot be accounted for, but are adhered to strictly. Many scientists have expressed their awe for the way these constants caused a form of "fine-tuning". We do not understand where these values come from, yet we do see that if they would have been any different, life in this universe would have become very challenging.
http://www.ebyte.it/library/educards...csAndMath.html

There are plenty of theories which have the habit of explaining the rate of expansion. Besides, the anthropic principle is a far better explanation than God, especially with multiverse theories flying around. On the biology bit, no idea what that is but I'm sure if you made an effort you'd find a naturalistic explanation easily enough.

????

[Tayel]

Muslims say" we have unlimited proofs"!! - Page 5 - The Student Room

Another mate said, May You brother read post 96? :)
May Allah save you from evils.
Ameen.

Please brothers, don't forget me in your dua.

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum

Those aren't scientific statements. They're really vague and easy to interpret in different ways, not to mention people would have figured those things out anyway. In no way is that remotely close to evidence, let alone proof.

"The mountains are shaped like pegs" is not vague, it gives a clear view of their shape, and this has been confirmed by science, and there was no way to discover these things without our current scientific advancement.
A similar argument can be said about the other verses. If you read them at face value, their have an obvious direct meaning. They are clearly not meant in a metaphorical way, and give a direct message. Of course people can interpret that differently, but that's not my point. My point is:
1. The direct literal meaning of these verses is confirmed by science
2. The early scholars, who lived before we had these scientific knowledge, believed that these meant the same as we now believe.
3. This knowledge could not have been discovered without our current technological equipment.
4. The only logical explanations are that it is truly a divine revelation or that it was a lucky guess. However to claim that all of these different miracles were all lucky guesses defy the logic of chance-calculation and luck, and is therefore no longer a logical explanation

There are plenty of theories which have the habit of explaining the rate of expansion. Besides, the anthropic principle is a far better explanation than God,

Making account for the miraculous rate of expansion is more then merely explaining how this happened. This rate is dependant on a set of arbitrary constants, which have no explanation in science. If one of these constants were slightly different, the rate of expansion would have been different to, and the whole universe couldn't have existed in the way it does. Also, regarding the Anthropic principle, you clearly do not know what it refers to. The anthropic principle doesn't explain anything. It doesn't try to answer these issues. It merely acknowledges: "these issues are indeed here". So it cannot act as a substitute explanation.

especially with multiverse theories flying around.

1. There currently exist no multiverse theories, only hypothesis.
2. These theories fail to explain the cause of existence, or the miraculousness of it, they merely shift the question.

On the biology bit, no idea what that is but I'm sure if you made an effort you'd find a naturalistic explanation easily enough.

Well I'm glad to see you are certain about things you have "no idea" about, but I on the other hand are more sceptical in nature, and tend to wait until the data is in. For now, there exist no scientific theories of how such a fine tuned and delicately balanced system could have come into existence. The same goes for many other systems you find in species by the way. But if you are certain about this, without even knowing anything about it, and you derive your view of the universe and the (non)-existence of God from that; then your view is just as much (if not even more) faith-based as mine. So by what authority is your belief better then mine?

Brother Tayel
Regarding the Miracles of the Qur'an. Yes I certainly believe that some of them really prove to us that the Qur'an is genuine. But Allah subhana wa ta'ala creates a veil inbetween the disbelievers to blind them from it. And like you can see from people's repsonse to the miracle of the mountain. the verse is clear, the early scholars said that this was it's meaning before even knowing about the science, the science confirms it, and still they deny it and claim that it is merely interpretation. This is what I meant when I said to salamfromrom:
So I think that an "un-deniable" proof is simply a pipe dream; a contradiction in terms. The suggestion of such a possibility is a great underestimation of the human capability to deny things.
In other words, no matter how clear and certain a miracle is, (some) people will still deny it. The capability of humans to deny obvious truths is simply so strong that it goes beyond miracles, evidence and rationality.

[Tayel]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

Brother Tayel
Regarding the Miracles of the Qur'an. Yes I certainly believe that some of them really prove to us that the Qur'an is genuine. But Allah subhana wa ta'ala creates a veil inbetween the disbelievers to blind them from it. And like you can see from people's repsonse to the miracle of the mountain. the verse is clear, the early scholars said that this was it's meaning before even knowing about the science, the science confirms it, and still they deny it and claim that it is merely interpretation. This is what I meant when I said to salamfromrom:
So I think that an "un-deniable" proof is simply a pipe dream; a contradiction in terms. The suggestion of such a possibility is a great underestimation of the human capability to deny things.
In other words, no matter how clear and certain a miracle is, (some) people will still deny it. The capability of humans to deny obvious truths is simply so strong that it goes beyond miracles, evidence and rationality.

Yeah,I mean in general brother, Does islam like such false religions based on just faith???
Or on the contrary we have many..
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Surely, we have faith about other facts as well as unseen, the existence of angel, Paradise,hellfire and what shall happen after death...But,it doesn't mean at the same time we don't have proofs, yeah??

And may you brother answer the post 96, May Allah grant you jannah. Muslims say" we have unlimited proofs"!! - Page 5 - The Student Room


Jazak Allah kheryn,