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Morals without God?

This is a discussion on Morals without God? within the Atheism and Agnosticism forums, part of the iDawah Refutations Discussion category; Does the morality comes from human beings? What do Muslims say to the euthyphro dilemma?...


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Old 03-01-2012, 06:58 PM
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Default Morals without God?



Does the morality comes from human beings? What do Muslims say to the euthyphro dilemma?
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Old 03-02-2012, 09:10 AM
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Default Re: Morals without God?

asalaamu alaykum waRahmatullahi waBarakaatuh

In Islam we would use the following premise as an argument:

God is the creator of humans and is the legislator of what is right and wrong for humans.

In regard to the euthyphro dilemma, then it's not a dilemma at all. God loves the ones He chooses, and if you desire to be God's chosen one, then you will fulfill the Guidance He has given to earn His pleasure.

Islam is practical, so it makes you strive for goodness to become and earn good. If you do not follow the guidance, then you can only blame yourself for not being chosen by God. This is how our relationship (as a two way thing) is defined with God.
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:17 PM
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As Salam Elekum wr wb,
This will help inshallah
Good or Bad: From Revelation or Intellect? - Multaqa Ahl al-Hadeeth
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:17 PM
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had a setting with a mate who has no belief in the existence of GOD (ALLAH bless him with HIS light), he was like an empty and hollow cave which has nothing but darkness inside only unlike believers, ALLAH bless us all.
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Old 03-04-2012, 10:25 PM
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Default Re: Morals without God?

Asalaamu Alaikum,

From Hamza's facebook;

Quote:
Islamic Thought Series #1: Today we will discuss science and revelation, and we will start with the topic of scientism. Scientism claims that science alone can render truth about the world and reality. It is important to note that Islamic scholarship does not adhere to the view that science is the only method to discover truths about man, life and the universe. In fact, Islamic scholarship views science as a useful method of study which has a limited scope, and should not be solely relied upon when assessing the truth of our existence. This philosophical position is based on various arguments, for example:

1. Science, or more specifically scientism, which is the view that we should believe only what can be proven scientifically, is self-defeating. Scientism claims that a proposition is not true if it cannot be scientifically proven. However, the above claim itself cannot be scientifically proven. Therefore, according to this claim, the claim itself is not true, hence scientism self-defeating.

2. Scientism cannot prove necessary truths like mathematics and logic. For example, "if p implies q, and p, then q" and "3 + 3 = 6" are necessary truths and not merely empirical generalisations. In fact, scientism requires these necessary truths, but it cannot prove them, and any attempt to do so would be tantamount to arguing in a circle.

3. Scientism has a limited scope as it cannot provide a basis for moral truths. For instance, biology or evolution cannot provide rational explanations for the meaningfulness of good and bad. This is because evolution implies that we are just by products of a lengthy biological process, our morals have developed like our ears or teeth. Since evolutionary changes are inventible, moral truths will also change. From this perspective morality has no meaning, as the philosopher of science Michael Ruse aptly states:

"The position of the modern evolutionist . . . is that humans have an awareness of morality . . . because such an awareness is of biological worth. Morality is a biological adaptation no less than are hands and feet and teeth . . . . Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory. I appreciate that when somebody says 'Love they neighbor as thyself,' they think they are referring above and beyond themselves . . . . Nevertheless, . . . such reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction, . . . and any deeper meaning is illusory . . ." [Michael Ruse. Evolutionary Theory and Christian Ethics in The Darwinian Paradigm. Routledge. 1989, pages 262, 268 - 9.]

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Old 03-05-2012, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: Morals without God?

Salam. This is a very good question akhi - and some sects within Islam were a bit confused on this particular question. It's based on a well known discussion called in arabic: "Altahseen wal Taqbeeh" (i.e. are things good because they're good, or because they're what Allah SWT wants). Bottom line is the sayings of Ahl Alsunnah Wal Jamaa is that: It's both. There are things that are good in and by themselves others than we can't determine - and so are good by virtue of Allah swt telling us so.
If you know Arabic and want details:
-
and Allah SWT knows best.
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Old 04-23-2012, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihsaan View Post


Does the morality comes from human beings? What do Muslims say to the euthyphro dilemma?
The euphythro dilemma isnt really much of a dilemma; for some reason many people seem to think that they must agree with either horn.
It could simply be said for example that objective morality does not exist - simply people do things for the best benefit for themselves.

Last edited by Person1001; 04-23-2012 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 04-23-2012, 01:18 AM
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Default Re: Morals without God?

It doesn't seem like there is an objective morality, it seems always evolving. Technological progress is a big part in it. Slavery for example was really only abolished in the advanced world because it had the luxury to do so. The same with abolishing certain social conventions and mores, all a matter of luxury.
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Old 05-25-2012, 03:09 AM
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Default Re: Morals without God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by muslimahfemale View Post
It doesn't seem like there is an objective morality, it seems always evolving. Technological progress is a big part in it. Slavery for example was really only abolished in the advanced world because it had the luxury to do so. The same with abolishing certain social conventions and mores, all a matter of luxury.
I do believe morality must be argued and debated, the classical civilization fell because the institution of slavery, a barbaric and evil practice, sapped society of it's vitality. The principles of the enlightenment, with it's smashing the political power of the Catholic Church(the abolishment at the point of the sword of Catholic Canon Law(the christian version of Sharia), the whole-scale slaughter of the most corrupt royal family in the west(The house of bourbon), liberated the scientific community, allowing people to publish books, challenge what was believed with ideas and evidence, and learning more about our world. Science is merely a way to know how the universe works, it is the shocking lesson that the earth is not here for us, we are not the most important thing in the universe. The discovery that their are more suns in the galaxy then people on earth. We are still reeling in shock. Sam Harris, a man I had the honor of meeting once or twice, made a statement. He did a talk regarding women's status, and how the "sexual liberation" of the west probably creating an unhealthy environment for raising children. Now I am not saying saudi style modesty is preferable, but there must be some happy medium.
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:54 PM
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Default Re: Morals without God?

Euthyphro dilemma: false diochotomy
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