> Harun Yahya and beyond.

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum

For micro evolution,
We can witness micro evolution in almost any specie. Even humans. Perhaps the best example of micro-evolution though, are all the different dog breeds. We know that many breeds have been descendent from a different type of breed. Created by people who cross breed different dogs.

For macro evolution,
There's no proof for macro evolution in the absolute sense of the word. However direct evidence isn't really necessary since macro evolution logically follows from micro evolution. Macro evolution is merely the theory that the genetic drift caused by micro-evolution might in some cases (like an isolated group) go so far to cause an entire different specie, it is believed to be the case for dogs and wolfs, horses and donkeys and so on. As for those loose ends I mentioned, there's the lack of direct evidence and case studies. There's also the difficulty in determining what a separate specie is. Wolfs and dogs for example are considered different species, yet they can interbreed, and their offspring can interbreed as well. So some might argue they are actually the same specie. Horses and donkeys or tigers and lions can interbreed as well, however their offspring have a much harder time producing offsprings themself.

About the fossil records; there would indeed be allot of gaps in the fossil record, if we accept common descent to be true.

About beneficial mutations. I'm somewhat on the fence. Again there's a problem in defenitions, what exactly is beneficial? If a mutation cause the average lenght of hair to be longer, that might be beneficial in colder climates, but not so much, or even bothersome in warmer climates. Or to get back to our dog-wolf example, is it beneficial to be a wolf instead of a dog or vice versa? Perhaps I should answer with: "There are mutations that cause differentation. Wheter that is beneficial is debateable."


PS: threads merged

[yhunt]

Walaikumasalam

JazakAllah khair for clearing up Micro and Macro evolution - I think I understand it a little better :)



Fossil records.
Confused.

So if we don't accept common descent to be true, then we should'nt expect transitional fossils? right?

Doesn't common descent/ancestor theory only apply to the APE>HUMAN side of things.
(or maybe I need to learn more about common descent/ancestor theory)

I was talking about animals :) - Like shouldn't we be seeing ALOT of transitional animal fossils in the record evolving through time etc. etc.



Mutations.
Even more confused.

So if:

"There are mutations that cause differentation. Wheter that is beneficial is debateable." (emhpasis added)

If there has been mutations that cause differentiation.
Then shouldnt there be fossils showing these differentiations? Or some kind of evidence at all?


Gah, too much Harun Yahya for me - confused as in old bat.
JazakAllah khair for merging the threads and your help :)

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum

Common descent is the theory that all different species, all originated from the same ancestral first life-form. So it's not just [ape] -> [human]; but it's [virus/bacteria] -> [every living creature].
In order for that t be true, we need a whole lot more transition forms inbetween different species. Some of the alleged links are just to far from each other to have been evolved in a single mutation.

If there has been mutations that cause differentiation.
Then shouldnt there be fossils showing these differentiations? Or some kind of evidence at all?

These differentiations are on the level of micro-evolution, (like say blue eyes vs. brown eyes). We don't need prove from the fossil record since we have more then enough proof for micro-evolution already. And more importantly, fossil record wouldn't do, as most of these little differentations cannot be seen in fossils. You can't see teh eye-color of a fossil for example.

[yhunt]

Walaikumasalam brother

Common descent - alhumdulilah it's cleared up.

Mutations.
Can they cause differences on the "macro" scale? Like an extra limb etc. etc.?

If no, then can Natural Selection (still need to read up on this) do that?
If yes (for both Mutations and NS), then should'nt we see something in the fossil record?

JazakAllah khair bro' for clearing up alot of issues with evolution, im sure something else will creep up soon ;)

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum

If the directions for making a certain body-part get copy-pasted somewhere else in the genes by accident, that could result in such changes yes. Perhaps an extra arm is a bit of an extreme example, because I assume the formation of the arms is dependant on several genes.

Natural selection can not cause difference. Natural selection is not a "driving" force. It doesn't construct new things or create anything. Instead natural selection is a "guiding" force. That means that after there is differentiation among a population; natural selection can select among the different forms, which one will survive and which one won't.

As for the fossil record, we'd only expect intermediate forms, if we assume that there's an evolutionary link between two species who have many differences. For example, if we'd assume a dog comes from a wolf, we would not need intermediate species. If however we assume that a rhino comes from a hippopotamus (or vice versa) then we would need some intermediate species, because the differences between the two are to big to write off to a single mutation. So if they are connected, it must have been trough a series of mutations over a large span of time.

[yhunt]

Walaikumasalam bro'

Hmm... I think I finally got it. JazakAllah khair for all your help.
After reading all the material on this forum and on your website - what reading material would you recommend someone who is interested in this area - since now im not going to H.Y for information on evolution?

If I have any questions popping up on this issue ill post it in this thread :)

[al-boriqee]

i think yall make a suitable team for this polemic against atheism and the evolution groups.

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum
Try: "Darwin's black box" by Michael Behe.

[yhunt]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

Selam aleykum
Try: "Darwin's black box" by Michael Behe.

walaikumasalam
jazakAllah khair for sharing :) will get around to checking it out once im free.

[Qatada]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

i think yall make a suitable team for this polemic against atheism and the evolution groups.

you gna do any work on that for your site akhi?