> Harun Yahya and beyond.

[yhunt]

Assalamualaikum my dear brothers and sisters in Islam.

Firstly, just wanted to give this site a good two thumbs up! This place has alot of quality content.

Moving on...

Harun Yahya and beyond.


Questions.

1. What are Harun Yahya's exact views on evolution/atheism/darwinism etc. etc.?

How can a individual read one of his books and not "lap up" everything without taking in all the incorrect ideas?

2. If Harun Yahya is not a reliable source for evolution/atheism/darwinism etc. etc.

Then is there a nice list somewhere listing all the other possible alternatives? In other words someone with more credibility?

I find the topic of evolution/science/(neo)darwinism/common descent/abiogenesis all very exciting, but I don't know where to get started basically.

Because there seems to be some dispute on Harun Yahya which nearly every Muslim points me to when I need anything evolution/science related.

After going through the article/threads in this site - where can one go to - to further his/her knowledge on this matter?

JazakAllah khair and keep up the solid work!

[Qatada]

wasalaam alaikum


What we've tried to do is gather up some main points which separate theism from atheism, and then argue in favour of the theism points, and ignoring the points which don't necessarily contradict islam.


So as a starting point - we focus on whether the universe had to have a starting point. This starting point will help us understand if the universe is independent, without the need of a God. Or if its dependant and cannot sustain itself independently.

So we made this thread to answer that the universe cannot sustain itself independentally;
An Eternal Universe? Nah, not According to Modern Science.


Alot of atheists believe that life can come from non life. Now life is such a big thing which separates our belief in God from no God. If someone was to argue that life can come into existence through biological means alone, then we are kind of opening the doorway for the argument that God isn't needed for life, since 'nature' has the ability of creating it too.


So we start with abiogenesis [life from non life.]

These two articles are specifically for that purpose of showing how life is really a scientifical miracle;

Intelligent Design - The Logic & Truth Behind our Faith
DNA - it HAD to be Intelligent Design.
Did Abiogenesis really happen? [this one is long but has a summary at the bottom]


Even an ex staunch atheist began to believe there is a 'Higher Power', due to there not being enough of a strong theory in support of abiogenesis;
Famous Atheists who left Atheism for belief in God



By being on the advantage for abiogenesis, we move onto Evolution.

Most of evolution, does not necessarily oppose Islamic teachings. To avoid complications, i even try to avoid this topic on animals evolving off others. What I instead do is focus on Adam not evolving off common ancestors to apes.

So we made a thread on arguing that humans are not descendants off a common ancestor to monkeys here;
Some Monkeys which evolved into Humans?



These are the 3 main points i refer to, and if you have questions about them - ask and insha Allah we'll address them. But they should be sufficient for you insha Allah :D

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum
Or you could just go to my website (most of the information there overlapses the info here)

[Qatada]

asalaam alaikum


i've tried to explain the points in your site so its understandable to lay people :D

[yhunt]

Walaikumasalam brothers, jazakAllah khair for the responses - but what about Harun Yahya.

I understand the bit about:

Common descent,
Abiogenesis and
How evolution doesnt really contradict anything in Islam <provable?>

Still learning these three points though - Br. Abdul-Fattah's website is neat! We need to see some forum action on that site ;)

My main concern is Harun Yahya, pretty much outlined in my first post.

[yhunt]

Assalamualaikum - got a quick question, InshaAllah you can help me out!

Brother Abdul-Fattah - you said:

"Well I don't rule out that possibility. If it turns out false no harm is done. I'm simply saying, at this point a lot of parts of evolution make allot of sense and some parts are even proven."

- Views on evolution by Harun Yahya, Pages 6, Post#53

"...I'm simply saying, at this point a lot of parts of evolution make allot of sense and some parts are even proven." (emphasis added)


Which parts are proven?

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum

First of all, we need to define what "evolution" actually is. The word evolution, could technically, refer to practically anything, since so many things can evolve one way or the other. However when most people use the word evolution without clarifying which evolution they are referring to, they usually mean "the evolution of the different species". I can understand why people would simply say "evolution" for practical reasons, but that is somewhat confusing. Because of this, many people think that the the term "evolution of the different species" refers to exactly the same as "biological evolution". I would disagree and say that although the evolution of the different species is indeed a part of biological evolution, the term biological evolution entails a lot more than just that.

• Biological evolution.
  This general term can be split up into two separate theories:
  • Evolution of life out of lifeless matter a.k.a. abiogenesis.
    This is the theory on how the first biological life evolved out of lifeless matter on earth.
  • Evolution of the different species a.k.a. origin of the different species. This is a group name for several other theories such as the theory of genetic mutation, survival of the fittest, genetic drift, and so on. These theories can be mainly categorized into three segments:
    • The theory of micro evolution.
      How genetic drift trough variation and mutation creates new breeds of a certain specie that then grow larger in numbers trough survival of the fittest.
    • The theory of macro evolution.
      How mutations on a genetic level can cause new species.
    • The theory of common descent.
      How trough micro and macro evolution, all existing creatures evolved out of the same ancestral being. This is not a scientific theory but a historical one. In other words it doesn't tell us something about the nature of physics, or the physics of nature, instead it speculates on how the currently existing organisms have evolved in the past.

As for which are proven and which aren't:

• Abiogenesis: Hypothesis which is incomplete, not testable, not falsifiable and not provable.
• Micro evolution Theory: Well established theory, testable, falsifiable and provable.
• Macro evolution Theory: Still some lose ends but to some extend testable, falsifiable and provable.
• Common descent: Speculation; completely half baked, not testable, not falsifiable and not provable.

Copy paste from my website

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum
Harun Yahya denies every single part of evolution. He believes that every different specie was created separately, and that they are incapable of ever evolving. By taking this position, he goes in against many scientific data and findings. You could say he's throwing away the baby along with the bathingwater.

[yhunt]

Walaikumasalam :)

JazakAllah khair for your response brother.

"As for which are proven and which aren't:

• Abiogenesis: Hypothesis which is incomplete, not testable, not falsifiable and not provable.
• Micro evolution Theory: Well established theory, testable, falsifiable and provable.
• Macro evolution Theory: Still some lose ends but to some extend testable, falsifiable and provable.
• Common descent: Speculation; completely half baked, not testable, not falsifiable and not provable." (emphasis added)

1. For Micro and Macro evolution - are there some examples of that in the real world which could be given to make a layman like me understand better :)

2. Is there any evidence to back up these two statements for Micro and Macro. Also what are the loose ends for Macro?

3. I always use to read in Harun Yahya books and articles, that there are NO TRANSITION FOSSILS FOUND etc. etc. and that there should be alot of them everywhere going through the transitional process. What is the matter concerning the "fossil record"?

4. Is there anything such thing as a beneficial mutation?

5. Can one species via natural selection, mutation - evolve into another?

Sorry brother for dumping so many questions on you - its just that I am currently confused on my *detailed* stance on evolution. I know the basic outline about common descent, abiogenesis. But not the detailed picture. So inshaAllah you can help me out and perhaps others in the process!!

May Allah reward you for the hard work.ameen.

[yhunt]

Walaikumasalam

"By taking this position, he goes in against many scientific data and findings." (emphasis added)

If I may be so annoying to ask :D - what are these scientific data and findings?