> Following a Madhab (help me understand)

[salman]

Originally Posted by Anwaar

Can you help me understand about madhabs?

I will try my best to use simple terms and language to make this matter clear, insha'Allah. This is summary of the link I posted earlier.

The Qur'an divided the people into two groups: 1) those who have knowldge 2) those who do not have knowldge. Then Allah Azza wa Jal ordered the second group to direct their questions and learn from first group of people. In conlcusion, it is obligatory upon laypeople to follow or make taqleed of people of knowledge.

Now here are few points:

1 - All the laypeople have to worry about is ask a scholar and stay away from his mistakes; PERIOD. The Shari' conditions of choosing is a scholar are only two: 1) knowldge and 2) piety. You ask a scholar who is known for his knowledge and piety and if there is another scholar who is better than first scholar in knowledge and piety then you ask him. One thing to keep in mind that you stay away from scholars who are known for making mistakes or giving odd fatawas.

2 - Do we direct our questions to any scholar or do we direct our questions to scholars of a particular math-hab? The answer is that both are permissible in shari'ah. Some scholars in our time has said it is better for person to do the second: direct his questions to scholars from one math-hab. However, other people of knowledge say the first one has more benefits. For example, let say you restrict yourself to asking scholars from only one math-hab but you end up living in area where scholars from other mathaahab are more knowledgeable. Or you cannot find a knowledgeable person from your math-hab in that area.

That is why I earlier said that there is nothing wrong in taking from different mathaahab (i.e., doing wudhdu the shafi way and touching women the hanafi way). Because Allah told us to ask any person of knowledge and he didn't limit us to one math-hab. Why do we want to make our lives difficult?

3 - Generally speaking the layperson has no math-hab and his math-hab is the math-hab of his mufti (the scholar he asks for fatawas). For example, if you take your fatawas from Islamqa or islamweb then most of their fatawas are based upon hanabli math-hab. So in that case, you would be hanabli just like myself. Most of us learn to pray salah and other basic fiqh from our parents so that is our math-hab. That is why the scholars say that the math-hab of an ami (layperosn) is the math-hab of his country or community.

4 - Mathhaab were put together by scholars for student of knowledge and not laypeople. It was to make it the learning easier for student of knowledge. Therefore, if a layperson takes his fatawa from a hanafi scholar, it doesn't mean that this person is hanafi now because to be hanafi is to have complete understanding of whole usul and fiqh of hanafi math-hab. However, it does mean that your fiqh is based on hanafi usul al-fiqh. So in way you could say you're hanafi but strictly speaking you are not.

5 - Some people say that it is obligatory upon everyone to follow one particular math-hab; however, this is not correct as it has no evidence from the Shari'ah and it is a minority view. This view has become very popular in our time and as a result you see the other extreme (it is wrong to follow any math-hab another minority view). The majority and correct view, insha'Allah, it is permissible for a person to follow a math-hab but it not binding upon him.

6 - Laypeople have nothing to do with evidence, because what are they going to do with it - they don't have any tools to analyze it all they care about is the verdict - it may even confuse them. So, a mufti may provide evidence or he may not. Once the layperson seeks his fatawa and he is satisfied then it is obligatory upon him to stick with it and not follow his desires and NOT force it on others. And say "this is correct view because we have this and that evidence from the Qur'an and the Sunnah".

7 - If a layperson asks a person of knowledge but his heart is not satsified with an answer (maybe because the person has less knowledge or did not give evidence), then he can ask another one person, who is better than first one in knowledge and taqwa. This kind of tarjeeh (giving precedence) is permissible.

Originally Posted by Anwaar

ok some poeple say that we don't have to follow madhabs.. And some say that if you don't follow a madhab then your a salaafi?

The part I underlined is a common misunderstanding among non-salafis and those who claim to be salafis. Ukhti, the basic usul is simple: we laypeople have no math-hab, all we have to do is ask a person of knowledge. To be salafi is to follow the way of the salaf in everything but the term is generally used to differenitat between salafi/sunni and non-salafi aqeedah. How can one claim to be salafi yet he says we should not follow the salaf in fiqh? The 4 Imams (rahimahumullah) were among the Salaf and most of the salafis throughout Islamic history have been hanablis.

[quote=Anwaar;12574]My question is do we have to follow a madhab?[/quto]no, all we have to do is ask any person of knowledge.

Originally Posted by Anwaar

if we don't then why do people do?

there is nothing wrong in it either, all they doing is asking the scholars from a particular math-hab.

Originally Posted by Anwaar

All madhabs are right yeh? then why can't we follow all 4 madhabs?

each math-hab has its own usul and fiqh; however, they are not correct in every and single issue. The haqq (truth) is not limited to 4 mathaahab even though 95% of fiqh you follow is covered by the 4 mathaahab so you are following them one way or the other. The mathaahab have evolved over the years and continue to do so as the scholars of each math-hab go outside of their math-hab to make ijtihad to follow correct opinion.

There is nothing wrong in combining/taking from all mathaahab in different issues as long as it is not haraam by ijmaa. As a layman, the only way this is possible if you ask different scholars and not limit yourself to one scholar or few scholars.

Example of haraam combination: case of marriage; taking the maliki position witnesses not required and taking the hanafi position wali's consent not required.

Example of correct combination: doing wudhu the hanafi way and praying the shafi way.

Like it has been mentioned before, there is nothing wrong in sticking to scholars from one math-hab. However, the problem with this is the blind taqleed and rejecting haqq. It is obligatory upon scholars and student of knowledge that when haqq reached them then they change their position and advice the laypeople to do the same. The layperson is dependent upon the people of knowledge and he is not blameworthy if he was following an incorrect opinion because he tried his best to seek fatawa from a pious and knowledgeable person.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the khilaf (difference) between mathaahab is only about 30% of the times; 70% of the times they agree with each other. From that 30%, at least 15% of the times the difference is valid difference and other 5% of the times one is more on haqq than the other.

and Allah knows best

[salamfromrom]

Example of haraam combination: case of marriage; taking the maliki position witnesses not required and taking the hanafi position wali's consent not required.

Haram according to your (and I presume the hanbali) position. But the above is certainly not haram from the maliki and hanafi point of view.

If you advocate that laymen should follow scholarly opinions only IF they agree with them, then be prepared for the vast numbers of muslims who will disagree with eachother on many many issues. And this disagreement is fine as long as it does not degenerate into name calling and violence. But at the same time, you might have to give credit to the ''maliki position witnesses not required and taking the hanafi position wali's consent not required.'' and recognize that these rulings are correct in their own way and are valid opinions.

Edit*: what I've said above about the maliki/hanafi positions being valid might depend on wether the different issuesare not haraam by ijmaa(I assume that by ijma you mean the ijma of contemporary scholars)


salam

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by Anwaar

Can you help me understand about madhabs?

ok some poeple say that we don't have to follow madhabs.. And some say that if you don't follow a madhab then your a salaafi?

My question is do we have to follow a madhab? if we don't then why do people do? All madhabs are right yeh? then why can't we follow all 4 madhabs? plus if you decide to follow a madhab then you can't avoid what other madhabs say about ceartin topics... then whats the need in following a madhab in the first place.

We all know that all madhabs are correct why do we have this conflict between muslims where they don't accept what other madhabs say? "i am an hanafi sorry i don't accept what shafiee has" ....

My main question is if i decide to not follow a madhab would this be wrong? and if someone is little of knowledge are they adviced to follow a madhab?
You see i am person still learning about islam and i have very basic knowledge and i wouldn't want to follow a madhab blindly.

I hope i haven't said anything wrong and that my thoughts are not from shaytaan.

ya ukhtinaa

make it mandatory upon yourself to watch these five videos of basic fiqh

Basic Fiqh Lesson #1 - The FIKS

Basic Fiqh Lesson #2 - The FIKS

Basic Fiqh Lesson #3 - The FIKS
Basic Fiqh Lesson#4 - The FIKS
Basic Fiqh Lesson #5 - The FIKS

all confusion should be suffocated and All questions should be answered After having reviewed all of them studiously.

I would also advice everone else to study them in order to understand how great weighty this topic is and how serious it is to speak out of your own whim

asalamu alaikum
Asalamu alaikum

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by Aayah

The Ulama had considered following and picking the Rukhas is fusq and not allowed. Because its considered as running away from the takalif and obligations and playing with the deen. Or maybe you thought that I am talking about something else, or maybe I misunderstood you wallahu A'alam

Asalamu alaikum

allow me to bride the gap of misunderstanding between you two inshallah.

Habibi salman, what sister ayaah was takkig about are those people who hop around fatawa to get what they want. We call this in America "fatwa shopping". These people are ahlul ahwaa and are not considered from the people of the sunnah. This indeed is a vaalid criticism instigated the ulema in which ayaah is correct

ukhtinaa ayaah

the point that salman was intending to hit was in the fact that while we do not perform fatwa shopping, it is likewise perfectly acceptable to abandon an opinion if you find another opinion that is stronger to the sunnah or is mire weightier. This is called following the daleel in a way. This method is the adopted and pure way even among the ulema whom you read that mention a criticism in following fatawa off of hawaa.

The manner in which this is narrated can be found in thr books of rijaal and tarikh for example. Adh-dhahabee for example when commening on people methodology (among the imaams) would say statements like
"huwa salafi fa adhanaa min al-maalikiyyah"
"he was salafi but he inclined towards the maaliki madhaab"

adh-dhahabee would mention for many of the imaams. He would say "he was shafi'ee but he was an athari." or sometimes he would say salafi.

What this means is that this is the original state of the Muslims, which is merely following qualified scholarship without ta'assub (partisanship) whereby extreme madhaabist turn it into some kind of gang. And this is what salman was highlighting

asalamu alaikum

[Aayah]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

Asalamu alaikum

allow me to bride the gap of misunderstanding between you two inshallah.

First, JazakAllah khair for the clarification. you said it better than me.

ukhtinaa ayaah

the point that salman was intending to hit was in the fact that while we do not perform fatwa shopping, it is likewise perfectly acceptable to abandon an opinion if you find another opinion that is stronger to the sunnah or is mire weightier. This is called following the daleel in a way. This method is the adopted and pure way even among the ulema whom you read that mention a criticism in following fatawa off of hawaa.

so, how can one take the fatwa he want or that he think is better for his situation in a way that he wont be "picking" according to his desire and fall in that sin of Ahalul-Hawa? because this is something very common these days

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by Aayah

so, how can one take the fatwa he want or that he think is better for his situation in a way that he wont be "picking" according to his desire and fall in that sin of Ahalul-Hawa? because this is something very common these days

the answer to that is actually kept within the niyyah and qasd of a person. That means that in reality there is never a way to really know the intent since it is between that person and Allah.

What we have to do on our part is simply and purely to correct the intentions, teaching the people to make tajdeedun-niyyah.

however, most of the prominent Imaams like Ibnul-Qaasim, Ibnul-Haamid, Junayd al-Baghdaadee, Abul-Qaasim at-Taymee, Naasir as-Sa'adi, Hamaad al-Ansaari, Muhammad al-Ameen ash-Shanqeeti, Ibnul-Qudamah, Abdul-Ghani, Ibn Abi Y'ala, Qaadhi Iyaad, Ibn Katheer, al-Mizzi, Ibn Hajr al-Asqalaani and plethora of other Imaams did clearly have opinions that contradicted the madhaab they followed. Everyone of these names were either hanbali, shafi'ee, or maaliki.

The reason why they did what they did was because their ultimate madhaab before their being maaliki or shafi'ee or hanbali was because they were primarily ahlul-hadeeth and that is why they are classed as among the ahlul-hadeeth ulema or ahlus-sunnah.

So anyways, it is primarily an issue that resides within the heart by which no one can really know for sure if a person is doing fatwa shopping or really following wherever he views the evidence is at.

[salman]

akhee, jazak Allah khayr for clarifying the confusion. I didn't get the chance to explain the misunderstanding.

sister, just to add on what akhee have said. The permissible tarjeeh we are talking about is in the cases when the layman,

1 - Takes a fatawa from one person of knowledge but he is totally not sure so he ask another person of knowledge.
2 - Was doing something a certain way but then someone told him that we suppose to do it another way or the first person was informed about a new thing

For the first case, his heart may be satisfied with fatawa from 2nd person of knowledge because he thinks the 2nd person has provided more evidence or he trust the 2nd person more or the 2nd person is known for more knowledge and taqwa. Obiosually, the laymen cannot say that the 2nd fatawa has more or better daleel because he doesn't have the tools to verify and permission to utter that statement. He is simply making his tarjeeh based on above mentioned factors. Obviously, we are not saying that the laymen should start comparing fatawas and make tarjeeh and say "I follow this fatawa because it has stronger daleel" - this is nothing but following his hawa. You will notice that many laypeople who are against following a math-hab often utter this statement. How can a person say this when he is making taqleed of a scholar and seeking a fatawa from him?

For the second case, it depends: If the first person trusts the 2nd person and 2nd person gives him a daleel and first person is not aware of any difference of opinions then it is wajib upon the first person to act on daleel. However, if the first person is aware of the fact that there is a difference of opinion in this matter and he doesn't know which opinion is correct then he can say to 2nd person "no, thank you" and move on.

and Allah knows best

I hope this clears up the confusion, insha'Allah

[Anwaar]

Originally Posted by sunnikid

Sallam alikum

Sister,

Jazakallah khayr akhi, Am getting some things clear now.

Originally Posted by Umm Sufyaan

try this

Jazakiallah khayr will read it soon.

Originally Posted by salman

I will try my best to use simple terms and language to make this matter clear, insha'Allah. This is summary of the link I posted earlier.

Jazakallah khayr akhi this is the best explanation I've got.

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

ya ukhtinaa

make it mandatory upon yourself to watch these five videos of basic fiqh

Barakallah feeki.

I prefer videos, I will watch them because i really need to understand at least the basic of fiqh.

[salman]

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

salam a leikum

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

What exactly does that mean akhi? How can an absolute layman who knows 0 about islam decide what is right and wrong? I am a layman myself, but this seems to be a recipe for disaster.

akhee al-kareem, I have explained this in my above post. I hope it helps you understand my point.

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

If we have an islamic state in the future, and we implement shariah according to the understanding of scholars/madhabs ''X'' . What will then prevent the layman to refuse to adhere to the official rulings by claiming he follows a different interpretation (interpretation ''Y'' ) because the official interpretation is not satisfactory enough for him?

to be honest, this is one of the topics, which I have failed to read about so far and I have no clue about it. the main problem is the lack of proper material in English on Islamic legal theory and political issues. I am in middle of gathering info about some of the books and maybe I can touch upon this issue in details sometime later, insha'Allah. However, for now this is all I can say:

1 - Shari'ah in an Islamic state is never to be established upon one math-hab's understanding. There should be mujtahid scholars who can make ijtihad to tell the courts which ruling is correct. Have a look at Should every country be obliged to follow a particular madhhab (school of thought)?. I am not too sure if it is completely helpful.

2 - Regardless of which math-hab a person follows, under an Islamic state, it would be binding upon him to follow the laws of the state. The laws we are here talking about would have to do with issues pertaining to marriage, divorce, inheritance, hadoud, children custody, buying, selling, lending, borrowing. The laws of the state would have no affect on person's daily fiqh (salah, siyam, etc.).

and Allah knows best

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

I know what you're saying and I agree with you, namely that we should not limit ourselves to one madhab needlessly.

akhee, it is much better to just ask any scholar. Our fiqh would be rich and we will not fall into blind ta'ssub taqleed.

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

But as far as implementing this policy of inclusion of differing viewpoints in an islamic state , is this not a recipe for civil war? Next thing you know 10% of the population will claim they want nothing to do with the ''official'' interpretation because they prefer the shia opinions, another 10% ''prefer'' the sufis, another 10% prefer the modernists, another 10% prefer the Salafi Minority opinion, etc etc. This ''choose whichever fatwa appeals to you'' approach cannot work in a real state.(or can it?)

like I said akhee, I don't know how this is going to work out and we are not the only ones who are confused about it. How about we two set our next project as reading and gathering material about this issue?

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

Haram according to your (and I presume the hanbali) position. But the above is certainly not haram from the maliki and hanafi point of view.

akhee, you misunderstood me. If combining different opinions results in an action which is haraam by ijmaa then such combination is haraam. By ijmaa, a marriage is not valid until there is either wali's consent or two witnesses present along with other essential pillars of marriage. If you don't have both then such marriage is haraam by ijmaa'. Each position by itself is not haraam according each math-hab's point of view. However, in the example I gave, combining Maliki and Hanafi position togerther in this issue is not allowed.

and Allah knows best

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

If you advocate that laymen should follow scholarly opinions only IF they agree with them, then be prepared for the vast numbers of muslims who will disagree with eachother on many many issues.

Akhee, I never said that the layman should follow scholarly opinion only if he agrees with them. This is nothing but following desires and may Allah save me from such a time when I would utter this statement.

I was talking about tarjeeh which I have explained in my previous post. By default, fatwa of a mufti is not binding upon the layman - this gives him a chance to seek fatwa from another mufti. In the end, different factors can allow the layman to choose one of the fatwas.

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

And this disagreement is fine as long as it does not degenerate into name calling and violence. But at the same time, you might have to give credit to the ''maliki position witnesses not required and taking the hanafi position wali's consent not required.'' and recognize that these rulings are correct in their own way and are valid opinions.

akhee, we cannot say that this difference of opinion is valid. Yes, it is based upon maliki usul al-fiqh and "correct" in its own as it is ijtihad of malikis but from complete shari' point of view we, as laymen, cannot say that.

At least in hanabli math-hab, wali and witnesses are one of the essential pillars of marriage. Without either of them, the marriage is not valid. and Allah knows best

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

what I've said above about the maliki/hanafi positions being valid might depend on whether the different issues are not haraam by ijmaa

Allahu A'lam but it doesn't seem like there is an ijmaa for each issue being haraam by itself.

Originally Posted by salamfromrom

(I assume that by ijma you mean the ijma of contemporary scholars)

no, by definition, ijmaa means consensus of scholars in every era unless it was a completely new thing where scholars had to make ijtihad. This issue has been around since the time of Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam) and the sahabas (radiAllahu anhuma). So when I say ijmaa, I am talking about from the time Salaf until today.

and indeed Allah knows best