> Issues Related to Qadr (Divine Decree)

[optimist]

Salam,

This is what we hear normally all the time, from all the pulpits.

“Allah makes people rich or poor at His own sweet will. One must be content with whatever state Allah keeps one in. If a man is poor, weak, with no bread to eat or clothes to wear or a home to live, it does not mean he is lowly and in disgrace or is contemptible. They may be so in the eyes of the world but in the eyes of God the Standard of Judgment between the respectable and the dishonourable, the rich and the poor is different altogether. The worldly goods and belongings are mischievous. The more you shun these mischievous worldly things the more favored and trusted you become in the eyes of God. A believer is actually one who is contented, gratified with whatever is bestowed on him by His Creator. Please understand that poverty and wretchedness, dependence and dishonor have all come about because so was His will, all these and more debasement should be considered as Mercy and Compassion from God. It may be possible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle but not for the wealthy to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.”

The entire concept is anti-Quranic. Actually these are the anecdotes popularized to lull the poor to sleep so that they remain oblivious of all the exploitation committed against them by the rich. Let us see what Quran really says in this regard.

The Arabic word rizq (رزق) refers to means of livelihood (necessities of life). In addition to rizq, the Quran has used terms like fadl and ma’ash. The position of rizq is the same as that of guidance. That is, Allah has said that: “We have sent you (men) on Earth which is well supplied by the means of your livelihood. (“We give your sustenance”). But just like our guidance, you need to work to obtain the necessities of your life. Allah has formulated certain laws about that, too. Whoever strives accordingly shall get wealth.

Our planet, Earth, contains wealth in raw form. Man has to find and retrieve it. This takes place under natural laws (formulated by Allah). In the first instance, personal work is required. Later, the question arises of distributing the wealth so obtained in a social context. This is where the situation gets complicated. It is here that Man needs Allah’s guidance. If rizq is distributed in the light of Allah’s guidance (the System of Providence), every individual gets sustenance peacefully and with self-respect. Otherwise (if rizq is distributed under a man-made system), society becomes a living Hell (as is the current situation of the globe). Let us see what the Quran says about it all.

1. ’Allah Gives you Sustenance’ والله يرزقكم<o:p></o:p>

Allah says in the Quran: “There is none among the living on Earth whose sustenance is not upon Allah --- “ (11/6); elsewhere, Man and other creatures Responsibility of Providing Sustenance are mentioned separately (29/60);

Sura Rome: “Allah is the one who creates you all and then provides you sustenance -- “ (30/40); Sura An’aam: “We sustain you and your off-springs -- “ (6/152, 17/31).

This provision of sustenance by Allah is not done directly by Him because not only other creatures but also men die by the million in a famine. The current distribution and availability of food to Mankind on this planet is a living contradiction of the view that Allah carries out this responsibility directly. It really means that He has created the means of wealth -- “We put you in place on the Earth and for you made in it means of sustenance “ (7/10; 15/20). Earth has been given the potential of producing food. He sends down rain which helps to produce food -- “Allah is the one who created the skies and the Earth, and sends down from the sky rain and so brings out from it a variety of sustenance for you -- “ (14/32); “He provides sustenance for you from the sky and the Earth -- “ (35/3); also: (2/22, 10/31, 27/64, 34/36, 40/13, 45/5, 50/11, 51/22, 80/25-32); “Who can provide you food if Allah turns these sources of sustenance off? “ (67/21, 63/30, 56/63-73); “The Earth has an infinite potential of yielding food, but at a given time, only a finite amount may be obtained -- “And We have stores of every thing but We don’t send those down (bring out of the Earth) except according to known measure -- “ (15/21). The term ’known measure’ (قدر معلوم) clearly refers to established ways and means (natural laws) open to Man’s discovery and application. Elsewhere in the Quran, it is referred to as of His plan (ما يشاء); “the reason for restricted yield of food is to check greedy oppressors among men” (42/27).

Having seen the ’known measure’, let us move one step further

2. Conditions for Obtaining Sustenance <o:p></o:p>

The equation of natural resources and human effort to obtain sustenance has very eloquently been presented in Sura Waaqea:

“Consider your contribution against Our laws in agriculture. You plow a field and sow seeds. Who produces crops from seeds, you or We? Who looks after crops? A calamity may fall and destroy a crop, leaving you shocked and sympathizing with your fellows and agonizing over the comprehensive loss of not only crops but also of seeds and hard work! Consider water which is essential not only for crops but also for your own existence. Do you bring it down from clouds or do We? Clouds are formed from salty sea-water which is unusable for either farming or your own consumption. What could you do if rain-water was as salty? Why can’t you arrive at the right conclusion in such a clear and simple matter? Why can’t you appreciate Allah’s systems? Consider fire which you use in so many ways. Who has caged heat (in firewood) in that manner? You or We? We have created all this (you only provide work). We state these facts to remind you of that forgotten truth that We have put all this, in place so that the needy get sustenance.”(56:63-73)

The Quran declares desire and work as fundamental to obtaining rizq. It is termed as "ابتغاء فضل الله” : the search for divinely-gifted sustenance. The Quran cites the revolutionary movement of Earth to create day and night as one of His signs; they have been made bright “ so that you can search your Preserver’s bounty (rizq) “. (17/12) Incidentally, the expression - ابتغاء - refers to search as well as intention (plan), effort and achievement. With regards to search for sustenance, a special mention is made of boats which were the best means of transportation at the time. Sea-vessels are quite important even today. “You see the boats sailing briskly in sea so that you can search His bounty --- “ (16.14); also: (30/46; 35/12; 45/12). This search for sustenance is necessary for the convinced and the dissenters alike. Hence, one of the characteristics of the Messenger and his group is that “They search Allah’s bounty (and His approval) “ --- (48/29; 73/20). It even becomes obligatory for the convinced: “When you have finished as-Sala, spread in the earth and search Allah’s bounty -- “ (62/10).

As a result of this effort, sustenance will come according to natural laws, which make no distinction between Muslim and non-Muslim. Whoever farms under the right agricultural laws shall reap a good harvest. “Whoever wishes benefits of future gets his crop yield more by Us; and We give, according to one’s effort, short-term benefits to the one who so desires, but they don’t get anything in future (42/20). We bestow from your Preserver’s bounty, according to everyone’s effort; your Preserver’s bounty is not forbidden (or restricted) to anyone -- “ (17:20). That, then, is the Divine Law (Plan - مشيئة) governing the distribution of rizq:

Sura Yaseen: “When they (the Dissenters) are told to spend for greater good from whatever rizq Allah has given them, they say to the Convinced: Should we feed those who would have been fed by Allah if He so wanted? The response was: “Surely, you are obviously not on the right track! “ (36/47) meaning thereby that “Allah gives sustenance according to His Plan“ means that men have to arrange for sustenance of men.

It is clear, therefore, that rizq gets available to anyone who works according to natural laws. This is the principle sent to mankind through each and very messenger of Allah. The Quran says about the Jews and the Christians of the time that: “If they had kept to the Tora and the Bible, and whatever Allah has sent down, they would have had plenty of rizq (from ’up and down’) -- “ (5/66; 7/96) Such abundance of rizq is termed as Allah’s favor and bounty. It was said about the tribe Quresh that they should accept & follow the system of the Preserver of Kaaba who ’gave them food to satisfy hunger and protected them from fear“ (106/4). Contrary to this, hunger and fear have been called Allah’s punishment.

Hunger is Allah’s Punishment <o:p></o:p>

Sura Nahal says: “Allah explains it with the example of a township. It was in peace and contentment. ’Rizq’ came to them in plenty from all four directions. They denied and rejected these bounties of Allah. So, Allah had them taste the calamities of hunger and fear. It was all due to their own deeds! (16/112).

Similarly, it talks about the people of <st1:place w:st="on">Saba</st1:place>. They were prosperous but ignored to take proper care of their crops and orchids. So, they were all destroyed (34/15-16).

Then the Quran goes on to say that when men face shortage of sustenance, they blame Allah for afflicting them without cause. It is said, “Now, as for man, when his Lord trieth him, giving him honour and gifts, then saith he, (puffed up), "My Lord hath honoured me." But when He trieth him, restricting his subsistence for him, then saith he (in despair), "My Lord hath humiliated me!" Nay, nay! (Tell them that Allah doesn’t degrade anyone without due reason. It is all because of Man’s on deeds.) but (it is Man’s own wrong system and errors to be blamed) ye honour not the orphans! Nor do ye encourage one another to feed the poor!- And ye devour inheritance - all with greed, And ye love wealth with inordinate love!”(89:15-20)

Since hunger and degradation are Allah’s punishment, one characteristic of the convinced (مؤمنين) is that they get respectable sustenance (as well as Protection) – (8/74); also: 8/4; 22/50; 33/31; 34/4.

We have seen that rizq is available to anyone who strives for it. But, the fact is that we observe someone who struggles very hard but remains poor and his family go hungry. On the contrary, someone doesn’t do any work but lives in prosperity and comfort. Why is that? Let us see.

3. Distribution of rizq (The Economic System) <o:p></o:p>

We shall now look at the intriguing question raised above:

Why do some remain destitute despite bone-shaking hard work and others enjoy affluence without doing any at all?

Hindu mythology finds the answer in reincarnation: One’s present financial state depends on the kind of life one has had in the previous one. This state of affairs is unchangeable since it is deemed by Eshwar Paramatma, the Supreme God.

The Muslim preacher explains it through pre-destiny. Richness and penury are directly ordained by Allah. Destiny is unchangeable no matter how hard one tries. But the Quran says: It is all because of their deeds! It is all because of the unfair economic set-up human have adopted. Armed robbers pick-pockets and thieves, for instance, deprive people of their hard earned wealth. A feudal land-owner or an industrialist exploiting the hard-work of the farm-workers and factory-workers, respectively. There are some intriguing questions, regarding the economic system we currently have, nobody bothers to think about, let alone try to answer – Who fixes the rate of payment for a farmer, laborer etc.? How it is done and on what basis? Who controls prices, and on what basis is it done?

Obviously, it is all done by men. Destiny, reincarnation etc. have absolutely nothing to do with it. Allah does not distribute wealth directly. He has provided Man with rizq. But, the fair distribution of it is to be done by Man not by Allah! If it is done according to the system suggested by Allah, no man will go without sustenance. On the other hand, if it is done according to man-made systems, human society will turn into a den of beasts!

4. He Gives Sustenance Beyond Estimate <o:p></o:p>

We have just seen that:

i) Allah created Man and provided him the sources and means of sustenance.

ii) But sustenance can be obtained only by working to Allah’s (natural) laws,

iii) The distribution of sustenance thus obtained is quite an important matter; it can be dealt with neither through natural laws nor human intellect; it requires Revelation, i. e., divine guidance,

iv) Laws of Nature and Laws of Revelation are both termed as - مشيئة الله- (Allah’s Plan), i. e., laws which Allah has formulated and established, through His own exclusive discretion, for human society,

v) In regards to rizq, whenever the Quran uses the phrase - من يشاء - the context will decide the subject (Allah or Man) of the sentence. When the subject is Allah, it means sustenance is made available according to Allah’s Plan. When The subject is Man it means whoever follows Allah’s laws shall thrive; whoever chooses to go against His laws, shall fall into destruction and degrading poverty.

Sura Zumr talks about the mentality represented by Qaroon (Korah of the Bible) and says that Man is a strange creature. “When he is in a problem, he calls out to Allah for help, but when he is prosperous he becomes arrogant and credits his own self exclusively for his gains.”(39:49). This mentality is the root of all evils in human societies. Unfortunately, most men are not aware of it. This mentality is by no means restricted in numbers or time. This is the capitalistic mentality. History provides testimony to the sad truth that this is a destructive mentality -- ’calamities came to them because of their own deeds; and whoever among these (your people O Messenger) transgress, shall bring upon themselves calamities because of their own deeds! (39/51).

The Quran goes on to say: “Don’t they know that Allah increases sustenance or scales it down for whoever so desires? This contains signs of truth for people who are convinced (of Allah’s laws) -- “ (39/49-52). If the subject of phrase - من يشاء - is taken to be Man (which is my preferred view), it means whoever strives according to natural laws, gets a corresponding amount of sustenance. If the subject is taken to be Allah, it means that increase and decrease in sustenance occur under Allah’s Plan (مشيئة ).

Sura Rome: “When We (give a) taste of bounty to men, they are very pleased by it, but when calamity comes to them due to their own deeds, they are frustrated. Don’t they see that Allah increases or scales down sustenance for whoever so wishes? Surely, in this are signs for the Convinced” – (30/36-37).
=
Sura Ra’ad talks about men who violate the contract they have had with Allah by dividing up mankind in groups, are destined for destruction -- “Allah increases or decreases rizq according to His Plan -- “ (13/26).

Sura Beni Israel talks about good social behavior and says: “Certainly, your Provider increases or decreases sustenance according to His Plan (مشيئة) “ (17/30-33).

A Society established on Quranic principles has its economy based upon anfaaqq (proper spending for greater good of society).

What is Anfaaq ? This Quranic term is quite meaningful. Its basic root is n-f-q (ن ف ق ). In the older days, money was usually stored in string purses (with only one opening). Naifaq was a purse with two openings. This should explain anfaaq, i. e., an economic system in which money keeps flowing and is available to all the needy,. This availability must be ‘in Allah’s way’ (سبيل الله), i. e., keep one’s earnings available for the needy entirely free of any charge. Therefore, Sura Baqara says: “They ask you how much they should keep available. Tell them: all which is over and above your needs! (2/219). Such an economic system has been compared to a good crop which yields hundred-fold from just one seed. Verses 261-267 of Sura Baqara sing praises of anfaaq in Allah’s way. Elsewhere, it is referred to as ‘giving a loan to Allah’ which is repaid with huge returns (2/245). Sura <st1:place w:st="on">Saba</st1:place> says: “Tell them that increase in, and scaling down of sustenance is done by my Preserver for His People according to His Plan. Whatever you spend properly, will come back (many-fold); and Allah is the best of sustenance providers” – (34/39).

We have seen that there are two aspects of increase / decrease in sustenance (rizq), i. e., to obtain it from the earth according to natural laws, and to distribute it according to permanent values established by Allah. This will ensure rizq ‘beyond calculations’ (بغير حساب ). We have also seen that ’without estimate’ does not mean without regulation. It simply means that the result is beyond your (men’s ) expectations and estimates. . When a society is administered by people who are not taken in by individual interest, they uphold Allah’s law by taking on the responsibility of providing sustenance (necessities of life) to people and are always mindful of the destructive consequence of a wrong economic system, the society is rewarded by Allah in a nice way due to their own deeds, and their wealth is increased by His bounty, and Allah gives limitless rizq to whoever so desires --- (24/38).

The group of Muslims in the first era of Islam were economically not very well-off. Their opponents (Chiefs of the Quraish tribe) used to make fun of them that the destitute were hoping to overcome the Roman and Persian empires. Allah said in the Quran that they (the Quraish) simply did not know the reality. The group of Muslims had committed themselves to Allah’s Plan. As a rule, this plan initially requires a lot of hard work – hunger, destitution, loss of life and property, destruction of corps etc. have to be faced (2/155). But, eventually, Allah gives limitless rizq according to His Plan –(2/212). History stands witness to this in the case of the Muslims rising as a nation. They were able to say us: “Verily, You give limitless rizq according to Your Plan!” – (3/26).

Wassalam

[salman]

akhee, answer my one question please

what is point of posting all these thread which are related to the same subject (thus can be discussed in one thread) during the month of ramadhan? How are these going to benefit any of us in the last few days of the ramadhan?

Secondly, is it hard to understand a simple fact that WE DO NOT ALLOW PROMOTION OF FALSEHOOD. So can you please stop posting these deviance thoughts and shoving down our throats? If you want to start a discussion then post a question and do not copy paste same nonsense over and over again. Jazak Allah khayr

I am going to close it with following comment: Allah Azz wa Jal has already decreed the provisions for every person and it increases or decreases with good/bad deeds and dua'as.

PS: actually answer my above question before I close or delete thank you

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

akhee, answer my one question please

what is point of posting all these thread which are related to the same subject (thus can be discussed in one thread) during the month of ramadhan? How are these going to benefit any of us in the last few days of the ramadhan?

Secondly, is it hard to understand a simple fact that WE DO NOT ALLOW PROMOTION OF FALSEHOOD. So can you please stop posting these deviance thoughts and shoving down our throats? If you want to start a discussion then post a question and do not copy paste same nonsense over and over again. Jazak Allah khayr

I am going to close it with following comment: Allah Azz wa Jal has already decreed the provisions for every person and it increases or decreases with good/bad deeds and dua'as.

PS: actually answer my above question before I close or delete thank you

Salam,

I am only looking for a fair discussion. During this ramadan, apart from reading quran, I am also reading and learning other books. I am not simply copy and pasting, but only extracting the main points and put them in a logic (taking extream care nothing is contradictory to quran). And when someone like you read with a critical attitude and ask questions it encourages me to do more research and learn further. I am only learning with an open attitude and willing to edit and even delete my post if I realise I made a mistake.

All these thoughts are quite new to me, came across only just two weeks before, and I felt there is great wisdom and frankly speaking I am beginning to realise the deptness of how merciful and fair Allah is towards us. I am now more closer to Allah. One of my close relative, who is so much for me, is a blind person and I had inside feeling, which I could not prevent to happen, until couple of weeks before that Allah is testing him and his family too much. (though I believed Allah will not do any wrong to anyone unjustly). I could not find answers why he was given this tragedy inspite of the fact that his family is good and and all the people are so loving and caring for others. But now I know Allah was not unfair and unjust. I cried a lot the night I read this work asking forgiveness and thinking how unfair the people are in general towards Allah. It is the general tendancy of the people to blame Allah for all the misfortune. But Allah is loving, caring, fair and He will not give any problems to anyone randomly or whimsically. It is people who are unfair. I know now that my relative became blind according to established laws set by Allah in the universe and mankind is even capable to find out the reasons and also to find remedies. I have one example.

My family watch a reality show on TV and my kid and wife are so much attached to a blind person, blind from birth aged 28 years coming from a poor background. Actually he is like a star of the show for all the people since he sings so good though he is blind. In the last episode, the people who were watching the show had a big surprise. The person who always appreared on the stage with the assistance of his mother came to the stage without any support. He got his eye sight back! Some of his supporters took him to a super speciality eye hosptial and they could make a successful operation on him. We have been taught from childhood, it is the will of Allah that this person was born as blind. I know now it is completely wrong. It is man who is responsible for this. It is only that Allahs determined laws operates in this world. Allah is not unjust, it is we are who are irresponsible and unjust. All calamities befalls on man due to his own action.

Also I told you about this scholar who came to UAE for Ramadan speeches at various places and on the next day he had to go back to India since his only child fell down from his falt from the 4th floor. I know now that it is not the will of Allah that this child should die so and so date so and so manner. It is not fate which is responsible for the death of the child, it is the irresponsibility of those who are supposed to look after the child. Here also the man is responsible for this calamity.

Anyhow, this is all for now. If you want to lock this thread, you can. But please open this thread after Ramadan.

wassalam

[salman]

all threads related to the topic of qadr are merged and opened for discussion

[optimist]

Originally Posted by Aayah

Actually the first thing came to my mind when I was reading the first few lines was "What the heck is this?!!!!"

Originally Posted by Aayah

sorry brother optimistic, no offend but I really recommend you to study the topic of Qadr (destination) very well before bring some weird arguments here even if it wasnt you who wrote them

If the life average or what they call "life expectancy" is high in some places its is pr-destined by Allah

If it was high because the life style of people and their eating habits, its also pre-destined by Allah and those habits are reasons of their long life but knowen in the Ilm of Allah

Even if the "life expectancy" in a backward country is low due to some certain diseases or some other economical reasons....its also a pre-destined

Salam sister,


I had promised to make a comment for your post after Ramadan. According to your above post we can conclude the followings;
1. The "life expectancy" is high in some places because it is pre-destined by Allah
2. If Life expectancy is high because of life style of people, their eating habits, medical advancement, which is also pre-destined by Allah
3. If the "life expectancy" in a backward country is low due to some certain diseases or some other economical reasons....its also a pre-destined

All the above three statements are completely baseless. You are attributing "destiny" (pre-determination by Allah) for diseases, economic problems, poverty, life style of people, eating habits, medical advancement, etc, etc. Ths is the arguement of the Infidels according to Quran.

In Quran God discusses about the rich who are when asked to let their wealth flown down to the poor, it is the infidels who will reply: “How can we enrich those who are poor by Allah’s will?”. Then Allahs response to this allegation is this “Surely, you are in grave ignorance!” (36:47).

The Quran says that when men face shortage of sustenance, they blame God for afflicting them without cause. It is said, “Tell them that God doesn’t degrade anyone in this way. Nay! But (it is all because of Man’s own wrong system and errors of deeds) you do not honor the orphan, Nor do you urge one another to feed the poor, And you eat away the heritage, devouring (everything) indiscriminately, And you love wealth with exceeding love.”(89:16-20)

In the history of mankind when the rulers grew more and more oppressive which resulted in ever-increasing social ills, poverty, diseases, economic problems, etc in order to avoid any public uprising against them, the rulers collaborated with the clergy who began propagating the view that the rulers, their oppression and power, all social problems, poverty and individual tragedies etc. occur by the pre-determined will of God and thus is unavoidable and is to be patiently accepted as fate. This propaganda through the years established as an article of the faith in all religions as poverty and all social problems as the (pre-destined) will of God.


The Quran announces: “There is no tragedy, calamity, misfortune befalls you but as result of your own handiwork” (Quran 42:30) - be it individual, like touching a flame, or collective as a dam giving way or people suffering in a society due to poverty, sickness, persecution, etc. A broken dam might flood and cause great calamities due to faulty construction. Don’t ever blame Allah for this calamity. A mismanagement in healthcare system might spread diseases and cause great hardship for many people. Don't ever blame Allah for this. In Chapter Aal-Imran, it states that when people are struck by an affliction, they wonder where it came from (أنى هـذا) - ‘ Tell them: “it is of your own doing” (3:164). Sura Nahal also says the same: “Their own wrongdoing brought tragedy to them” (16:34).

Allah says in the Quran, Allah will not change any community unless they themselves change. This is an important principle applicable everywhere. We are far ahead in medical advancement in the present world. It is not because simply Allah pre-determined this to happen. It is the result of own own effort. Why America and other western countries are far ahead in all scientific discoveries and medical discoveries when compared Muslim countries (who are supposed to get help and support from Allah)? Is it the will of Allah the Muslim countries remain backward in military, and other scientific advacements? NOOOOOO. You are simply guessing. It is only that the so called Muslim countries are not taking any effort and doing nothing to promote scientific advancement. Don't blame Allah for every backwordness and problems. In a poor country like Somalia thousands of people are dying due to malnutrition and diseases. It is not because of the pre-determined will of Allah these people are suffering. Allah will not arbitrarily give anyone any problems. It is the people who are responsible for this. Your conclusions are completely baseless.

Sorry sister, no offense but I really recommend you also to study the topic of Qadr (destination) very well before bring some weird arguments and blame Allah for everything. After speaking of destruction of the nations of the past, says: “Allah did not treat them cruelly, but they brought it upon them themselves” (9:70). “Allah is not unfair to people in the slightest, but they do it to themselves” (10:44). Allah’s being cruel and unfair to Man is inconceivable. People bring tragedies to themselves by their own hand. “Allah is not cruel to His creatures” (22:10). In fact, “Allah doesn’t (even) intend to be cruel to His people” (40:31).

Wassalam

[optimist]

Originally Posted by Aayah

Even if the "life expectancy" in a backward country is low due to some certain diseases or some other economical reasons....its also a pre-destined

Salam,

One more thing. Do you know, according to Quran, hunger is a punishment from Allah, not pre-destined (will of Allah).

“Whoever (individual or group) ignores Our laws shall have (or its) sustenance restricted -- “ (20:124), and then goes on to say: “and We will have him (or them) raise blind on the Day of Judgment“. The Quran says about the Jews and the Christians of the time that: “If they had kept to the Tora and the Bible, and whatever Allah has sent down, they would have had plenty of rizq (from ’up and down’) -- “ (5:66; 7:96) Such abundance of rizq is termed as Allah’s favor and bounty.

Sura Nahal says: “Allah explains it with the example of a township. It was in peace and contentment. ’Rizq’ came to them in plenty from all four directions. They denied and rejected these bounties of Allah. So, Allah had them taste the calamities of hunger and fear. It was all due to their own deeds! (16:112).

Similarly, it talks about the people of Saba. They were prosperous but ignored to take proper care of their crops and orchids. So, they were all destroyed (34:15-16).

The Quran says that when men face shortage of sustenance, they blame God for afflicting them without cause. It is said, “Tell them that God doesn’t degrade anyone in this way. Nay! But (it is all because of Man’s own wrong system and errors of deeds) you do not honor the orphan, Nor do you urge one another to feed the poor, And you eat away the heritage, devouring (everything) indiscriminately, And you love wealth with exceeding love.”(89:16-20)

wassalam

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

akhee, just to refer to earlier link I posted and other fatawas. Here is the link again, Belief in Qadr (Divine Decree), it explains very well what you are confused about. In short, Allah knows everything due to His Knowledge so He ordered the pen to write down everything which will happen until the time of hour. Some of things were fixed by Allah (birth, death, provisions etc.). Some are absolutely fixed (i.e., time of birth & death) whereas others change with our actions and dua'as (i.e., provisions). Rest is up to us, we make the choices and get consequently result. However, what we do and the choices we make are already written down due to Allah's knowledge. When we make a certain choice Allah wills/permits it to happen so it happens - this is what is meant by the phrase: "nothing happens without the Will of Allah". This does not mean that Allah had already decreed what we should do. He has decreed what we will do. There is a huge difference between the two. and Allah knows best

I do not advise anyone to listen to brother optimist's explanations due to many problems in his creed. Sometime he may say things which are agreed upon by us and maybe little bit difference in terms of semantics but other times he is completely out of the way.

akhee optimist, you know I have nothing personal against you - I am only against your speech and speaking about issues for which you have no knowledge and interpreting the Shari'ah when you are not qualified for it.

Salam,

Brother salman, I am copying and pasting your above comment from the other forum. This is not for a arguement. It is for a understanding a point clear. You can take time to verify the point and you need to reply back only at your convenience. I had asked the following question there, but I think you did not see it. The question is simple.

What do you mean when you say "This does not mean that Allah had already decreed what we should do. He has decreed what we will do"? Could you please explain this piont bit more clear preferably with examples.

I will ask you this point with an example. Suppose I hit a man with a knife. Is this something "Allah has decreed "what I will do"? Or is it something I myself doing out of my will? In other words, is it because Allah has decreed that I hit this man with a knife? Or is it that Allah has simply recorded that at so and so time I will hit so and so man out of my free will?

Please I need a answer for this. You can take time. Thanks

Wassalam

[salman]

Originally Posted by optimist

Salam,

:

Originally Posted by optimist

What do you mean when you say "This does not mean that Allah had already decreed what we should do. He has decreed what we will do"? Could you please explain this piont bit more clear preferably with examples.

It means Allah already knew what we will do so He ordered the pen to write it down. This does not mean that Allah forced down on us that we should only do this and took away the ability of acting upon our freedom of choice. However, we cannot exercise our freedom of making choices and acting upon them without the permission of and Will of Allah. It was the Will of Allah that He Permitted and gave this ability. It is by His Permission and Will that our decisions come into being/happen/created. In addition, because some things has been absolutely decided by Allah (i.e., our birth time, where we will be born - i.e., family - death). Thus, this is the context we referr to when we say everything has been decreed by Allah and nothing happens without His Will.

Let us go over your example to clarify this further

Originally Posted by optimist

I will ask you this point with an example. Suppose I hit a man with a knife. Is this something "Allah has decreed "what I will do"? Or is it something I myself doing out of my will? In other words, is it because Allah has decreed that I hit this man with a knife? Or is it that Allah has simply recorded that at so and so time I will hit so and so man out of my free will?

it is the latter - recording of what you will do out of your free will and allowing that to happen. It is your choice only; Allah did not wrote down in sense of forcing you to do this. However, due to Allah's infinite and pre-eternal knowledge, He knew that you will make this choice and He knew the exact moment. Thus, He ordered the pen to write this down in the book. When the moment came, you made the choice and Allah Willed and Permitted you to exercise your choice and see the result of it. Our actions, thoughts, etc. are created by Allah, but we are responsible for initiating the process by utilizing our ability of taking decisions and acting upon them.

Allahu A'lam

I hope this is more clear now. I will respond to your previous posts some other time, insha'Allah.

this topic can be confusing for people and it was one of earliest topics of creed in which the people deviated. So we need to be careful about it, specially from who we take the knowledge.

[optimist]

Originally Posted by salman

It means Allah already knew what we will do so He ordered the pen to write it down. This does not mean that Allah forced down on us that we should only do this and took away the ability of acting upon our freedom of choice. However, we cannot exercise our freedom of making choices and acting upon them without the permission of and Will of Allah. It was the Will of Allah that He Permitted and gave this ability.

Salam,

Brother Salman....you are now telling me the same thing I was telling you in simple words. I agree with you completely with your above statement. It is only that Allah knew how we will do using our freedom of choice, and Allah permits the things to happen what we do according to our will.

it is the latter - recording of what you will do out of your free will and allowing that to happen. It is your choice only; Allah did not wrote down in sense of forcing you to do this. However, due to Allah's infinite and pre-eternal knowledge, He knew that you will make this choice and He knew the exact moment. Thus, He ordered the pen to write this down in the book. When the moment came, you made the choice and Allah Willed and Permitted you to exercise your choice and see the result of it. Our actions, thoughts, etc. are created by Allah, but we are responsible for initiating the process by utilizing our ability of taking decisions and acting upon them.

Here also I fully agree with your above assessment. Allah have not written down anything so as to deny man the freewill given to him. Allah knows everything, past, present and future. It is not necessary man's actions to be pre-determined for Allah to know what man will be doing in future. Man is free-willed. But, his freedom is not limitless. It is dependent on various factors beyond his control and/or knowledge. He does not have complete control over his environment and, and over his fellow men’s actions. In today’s world, even a political change in a super-power country like the USA affects the entire globe. Therefore, Man, cannot foretell with certainty the actions he will take in future. Man can only decide his actions in the light of his situation, considering the various factors in play, only upto a point within the boundaries of human capabilities. In simpler words, then, Man is capable of exercising his free will to change his decisions. Allah knows what decisions Man is going to take. Therefore, Man does not know his own future actions whereas Allah does (know man’s future actions).

It is by His Permission and Will that our decisions come into being/happen/created. In addition, because some things has been absolutely decided by Allah (i.e., our birth time, where we will be born - i.e., family - death). Thus, this is the context we referr to when we say everything has been decreed by Allah and nothing happens without His Will.

This requires more explanation and clarification. You are saying that our birth time, where we will be born, - i.e., family, death, etc are predetermined. Actually it is not exactly as you are projecting it to mean. First let us look at the meaning of qadar in the Quran.

The meaning of قدر

According to Quran, (قدر) ‘Qadrun’ or (تقدير) ‘Taqdeer’ means a measure or a standard; also, of something to be of the right measurements, standard and estimate. (قدرت الشيء) means: I measured that thing; estimated. (قدرت الشيء بالشيء) means: I measured the (one) thing against the (other) thing. (قدرت عليه الثوب) means: I made clothes for him according to measurements. Therefore, ‘taqdeer’ has the sense of something being fit to measurements. (مقدار) is a model standard or measure. (على قدر) means: He/It proved true to measure (expected standard). It follows, therefore, that (قدر) ‘Qadrun’ or (تقدير) ‘Taqdeer’ means a measure or a standard; also, of something to be of the right measurements, standard and estimate. Since absolute control is required to make something according to a particular standard, (قدرت على شيء) means: I had control (and power) to make that thing according to my standard/measure.

About rain the Quran says (43:11): “and We bring down rain from clouds according to a measure”. وَالَّذِي نَزَّلَ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَاءً بِقَدَرٍ Elsewhere (13:17), it says: “after rains, streams flow according to their standards.” أَوْدِيَةٌ بِقَدَرِهَا . The Quran says about all universe in (25:2) “He created all things and set a measure to them(فَقَدَّرَهُ تَقْدِيرًا).”. More precisely in (54:49): “Surely, We created everything according to a measure.” إِنَّا كُلَّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقْنَاهُ بِقَدَرٍ

Let us now look at references where (قدر) is even more clearly used in today’s sense of ‘Laws of Nature’. Even a school child knows about the Earth’s rotation causing day and night according to set laws. This enables us to forecast, with precision, sunrise and sunset. The Quran says in (73:20): “Allah has set standards (قدر) to day & night.” Also, about the moon (10:5): “Allah has set stages for it.”

The meaning of (تقدير) may be very clear by the following: “The sun is traveling towards its station. This is the measure (تقدير) set by the all-knowing and almighty (Allah).” This illustrates that (تقدير) means Laws of Nature and NOT Man’s destiny. Allah has set standards and measures for everything. “The One who created, then gave (all things their) balance, then set standards (for them), and then guided (them to those laws)” – (87:2-3). This divine control extends also to the social world of humans who has been given free will to choose a path of his own choice, ‘(Mankind) benefits or suffers by its (own) deeds’ – (2:286). Referring to the losses incurred by Muslims in the battle of Uhad, the Quran says: “You said why it had happened to you. Tell them (O Messenger) it happened because of your own selves (doing something wrong)– Allah is the Measurer قَدِيرٌ (kadeer) of all things –“ (3:165).

These taqadeer (standards, measures - law of Nature) of Allah’s are pre-determined (it was done in the domain of ‘Amr’) and they are ‘written’ in the ‘book of Nature / Universe’. This is referred to as ‘the clearly set book’. It says in Sura An’aam: “Allah knows what is in the seas and on land. He knows every leaf that falls off a tree. He also knows even a grain in the darkness of the Earth. The truth is that each and every thing (in detail) is there in the clearly-set book.” (6:59) That is to say that standards have been set to all things in the universe and are there. (17:58).


Now we came to know Taqadeer as pre-determined standards, measures and laws of nature it would not be difficult for us to know birth of a man also happens based on this set of laws. In Sura Haj Allah says : “And We keep it (the fetus) in the wombs till a declared (fixed) The Human Fetus’ period as We desire –“ (22:5). Obviously, ‘as we desire’ doesn’t mean that Allah decides the duration of each fetus individually. The entire process is subject to natural biological laws. Therefore ‘as We desire (ما نشاء ) means: according to (the law) which We have already willed (established). Allah has set measures and standards to all things (according to which they function)! Allah’s control (measures and standards) extends over every thing. By dint of being bound by laws, measures and standards, the universe is discoverable, and hence controllable by Man (45:13). It is the reason why women, who can not get pregnant in the normal process, if they go for advanced medical treatment, Human Artificial Insemination techniques, fertility drugs, there will be great chance for them to have kids. This example could be enough for anyone to know that Allah has only set a given divine (natural) laws into play without interference and every thing happens as per these laws (taqdeer). The freewilled man can disturb or promote these laws. We can cite numerous examples to prove this.

1. In china, married couples are not allowed to have more than 2 kids. This is a freewill exercised by men at a particular region that disturb the number people born in a region over a given period of time. One may argue that since birth is absolutely decided by Allah, it is due to specific decision by Allah that Chinese Govt decided to introduce this law, which is not true.

2. I had written at another thread about calamity experiencing in one part of India, where the plantation corporation aerially sprayed endosulfan pesticide (this is banned in several countries at the moment) in an area of nearly 5000 acres and today the villagers who live close to the plantation are paying the price, average one in a family is born with physical deformities, and the area is dotted with tragedy struck families battling physical deformities, cancers and disorders of the central nervous system. Also the number of women getting pregnant in these villages is so low compared to national average. Here man is responsible for all these calamities and it is not Allah’s pre-determined decision that the women live in these villages at a particular time suffer from low pregnancy rate. All this happened according to measures and standards set by Allah in this universe. "Glorify the name of thy Guardian-Lord Most High Who hath created, and further, given order and proportion; Who hath ordained laws."(87:1-3)

3. It is medically proven that if married couples decide to postpone having kids (you will agree this has nothing to do with Allah’s pre-determined decision) for many years it is likely that they might face fertility problems.

Death occurs according to divine (natural) law. But…..

In Quran it says (3:145) life and death occur according to divine (natural) law. The time-period spanning a man’s birth and death (ajal) is his age which is determined according to the divine law. But time-period between birth and death can be shortened or lengthened. ‘Young’ and ‘old’, in connection with age, are relative terms, measured against ‘normal’ age-span of a particular group. It is a known scientific fact that the normal life expectancy in any given group can be controlled through hygiene, eating habits, prevention and treatment of disease, and the standard of living etc. It applies to groups as well as individuals. For instance, in the United States, the 1900s were marked by a rather low life expectancy. About half of all children born in 1900 were only expected to live to reach the age of 50. Today, due to medical advancement and standard of living, the life expectancy has changed dramatically, as the average person (of any sex) in the United States is expected to live to be about 77 years old.

BUT “Age is not pro-longed or shortened for anyone except according to law ---“ (Quran 35:11). It is obvious that the precise period of time (age) is not pre-determined. It can be controlled through natural physical laws mentioned above in addition to factors like hereditary tendencies, as well as post-natural care, physical and mental well-being etc. These very rules (values) determine one’s, and a group’s, age: “We have established laws of death for you (all) ----“ (56:60). It is Man’s choice to violate, or abide by, those rules: “And don’t put yourselves to death with your (own) hands! --- (2:195).

The Quran very eloquently referred to the ignorant Arab practice of burying alive their infant baby girls by asking: “What will your reply when that child will be asked on the Day of Judgment: ‘Why were you killed?’” (81:9). Since Allah is wrongly blamed for pre-determined decision, Today’s girls might well ask that from Allah Himself!

The Quran narrates the argument prophet Abraham had with Kind Nimrod. Please ponder a little carefully over the words in which the Quran has narrated this episode. It says: "Think of him who had an argument with Abraham about his Lord, because God had given him the kingdom; how, when Abraham said; 'My Lord is He who gives life and causes death.' He answered: 'I give life and cause death'. Abraham said: 'God causes the sun to rise in the east can you make it rise in the west.' So was the resister of truth shamed into silence." (2:258). It was easy Nimrod, being a free willed man, having power over his subjects, over their lives and property to bring two persons and kill one and leave the other free and claim that it is he who decide who should live and who should die. Notice here Abraham directly not pursuing the reply made by Nimrod, but giving him a fitting reply sighting the example of sun. Through this example Abraham was proving Nimrod that Allah controls everything in the universe and it is Allah who has set measures and standards everything in the universe and including life and death. Each and every occurrence in the physical universe, as well as Man’s social world, takes place under pre-determined laws (i.e, Taqdeer...please refer again the meaning of taqdeer stated above extracted from quran) enacted by Allah.

Wassalam

[salman]

Please do not repeat same thing again and again. You have already copied same text or similar argument in this thread like two times already. What is the point of bringing it again, it only makes the reading and discussion difficult.

In response to your similar arguments, I have brought up the ahadith and number of ayaat from the Qur'an to prove you wrong. You twisted the ayaat and posting your own understanding when you are not qualified for it so no one is gonna buy it here. If you want to prove that your understanding of the ayaat is correct then bring statements from the early scholars or mufasreen. You did not even bother responding to the ahadith which clearly prove you wrong. And please do not give me "oh they are not authentic" rubbish.

Again, you can post your points as many times as you want and do whatever you want; however, I am not going to respond to them neither anyone is going to agree with you unless you bring, in your favour, statements of the people of knowledge. Please do not force me to delete or edit your posts, thank you