Issues Related to Qadr (Divine Decree)

This is a discussion on Issues Related to Qadr (Divine Decree) within the Aqeedah and Methodology forums, part of the Islamic Library category; not necessarily; our shortcomings are not the only reason for afflictions falling upon us or tested with tragedies. Allah could test the believers to see ...


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afflictions, control aging, death moment, divine decree, poor people, pre-destined, responsible, rich people, tragedies, whimsically

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Old 09-10-2009, 08:37 AM   #11
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Default Re: Is Allah responsible for TRAGEDIES and AFFLICTIONS?

not necessarily; our shortcomings are not the only reason for afflictions falling upon us or tested with tragedies. Allah could test the believers to see if they have strong imaan in Him. The Prophets (peace be upon them) faced many trails, hardships and tragedies, were it also due to their sins?

this title is so misleading, it should be "why afflictions fall upon us" and not "is Allah responsible for it". Everything comes from Allah!

These kinds of articles actually explains us why the Salaf hated ilum kalam and rebuked those who used it.
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Old 09-10-2009, 10:03 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is Allah responsible for TRAGEDIES and AFFLICTIONS?

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Originally Posted by salman View Post
not necessarily; our shortcomings are not the only reason for afflictions falling upon us or tested with tragedies. Allah could test the believers to see if they have strong imaan in Him. The Prophets (peace be upon them) faced many trails, hardships and tragedies, were it also due to their sins?

this title is so misleading, it should be "why afflictions fall upon us" and not "is Allah responsible for it". Everything comes from Allah!

These kinds of articles actually explains us why the Salaf hated ilum kalam and rebuked those who used it.

amen bro, amen.
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:50 AM   #13
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Default Re: Is Allah responsible for TRAGEDIES and AFFLICTIONS?

^akhee, this kalam seems similar to what a mu'tazilite would say. No? I think I may go review my notes just to confirm.
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:51 AM   #14
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Default Re: Is Allah responsible for TRAGEDIES and AFFLICTIONS?

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not necessarily; our shortcomings are not the only reason for afflictions falling upon us or tested with tragedies. Allah could test the believers to see if they have strong imaan in Him. The Prophets (peace be upon them) faced many trails, hardships and tragedies, were it also due to their sins?

Salam,

Well, this is an interesting discussion.

Brother, no where I posted or even implied it is "due to sins" tragedies and afflictions happen. What is stated is only this. Tragedies and afflictions happen not because Allah willed it to happen but because of man's own doing and consequences of his actions.

Mankind has got freewill. Quran says “Do whatever you wish. Surely, whatever you do (will bear a result, as it) is watched by Him” (41:40). That is: your are free to do whatever you wish but not free to alter the natural result of that action. You can’t follow path A and expect to end up at the other end of path B. (or you can’t swallow a pinch of poison and expect it to behave like a lump of sugar. Every action has a set reaction. You can initiate and trigger a law which then follows its natural course.

Taqdeer (destiny) is Nature’s law which becomes functional according to the action taken by Man. For instance, the ‘taqdeer’ of a person who puts a hand in fire is burning. When that burn is treated with a balm, soothing becomes its taqdeer.

This point is illustrated by a an incident reported about Omar [r], when plague broke out, he suggested moving out of the town to a distant place to avoid infection. Abu Obaida commented, “You are trying to escape Allah’s law?”. “Yes”, Omar replied, “I am escaping from His (one) law to His (other) law,”. If one stays in a plague-infected area, death comes according to God’s taqdeer (law). But, if one leaves the epidemic-affected environment for cleaner, safer ground, death is avoided according to Allah’s ‘taqdeer’ (law). The choice between the two ‘taqdeers (laws) is entirely Man’s own.

Brother, you have stated, Allah could test the believers to see if they have strong imaan in Him. But Allah would not unjustly and arbitrarily test the believers. I will explain the point clearly.

In the battle of Uhud, the Muslims were on the verge of victory when a contingent of archers, going against their commander’s instructions, shifted from their position. This tactical mistake cost them dearly and they suffered heavy losses. Sura Aal-Imran narrates this episode:
“You were killing the enemy according to Allah’s law, were about to be victorious, and He was about to fulfill His promise to you. But, you faltered. You began to argue among yourselves over the situation and you disobeyed (your commander) and failed to wrest victory which was only moments away.” (3/152)

Afterwards, when Muslims pondered upon the setback with ‘ How did it happen?’, Allah’s reply to that was very clear: “Tell, (them O Prophet!), that was from your own selves.” (3/165). The same verse states this fact very clearly. “Among you are some that hanker after this world and some that desire the Hereafter. Then did He divert you from your foes in order to test you but He forgave you: For Allah is full of grace to those who believe.”(3:152). Here it does not mean Allah deliberately diverted them from the enemy, if that is so the Allah would not say the believers were at fault. It only means that when some of the Muslims were taken over by short-term benefits their attention was diverted away from the enemy according to Allah’s law of returns and the enemy could overpower them. But there is always opportunity to correct and learn from mistakes as the same verse states. “Behold! ye were climbing up the high ground, without even casting a side glance at any one, and the Messenger in your rear was calling you back. There did Allah give you one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for (the booty) that had escaped you and for (the ill) that had befallen you. (3:153) It means that if one discovers and abides by, Allah’s law, one is guided rightly. “Whosoever is convinced of Allah (‘s law) has his heart guided (to the right path)” (64/11).

And whatever misfortune befalls you is the consequence of what your own hands have wrought. (42:30)
وَمَا أَصَابَكُمْ مِنْ مُصِيبَةٍ فَبِمَا كَسَبَتْ أَيْدِيكُمْ

But it happens according to Allahs Izn and decree.

مَا أَصَابَ مِنْ مُصِيبَةٍ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ
Sura Taghaban -- “No calamity befalls you but by Allah’s Izn.” (64/11)

Well, is there any contradiction between the above two verses? There is no contradiction. We are free to do whatever we wish but not free to alter the natural result of that action. As I mentioned above ‘taqdeer’ of a person who puts a hand in fire is burning. When that burn is treated with a balm, soothing becomes its taqdeer. Allah will not unjustly or arbitrarily test the believers. I can make this point bit more clear to you through another example.

Beginning of this Ramadan, a prominent Islamic scholar from India, M.M. Akbar came to UAE (Masha Allah, over 2000 non muslims converted into Islam because of his effort) at the invitation of Holy Quran Award committee to deliver speeches at various place in UAE. On the very next day of his landing in UAE he had to return back to India because his 2 year old girl child fell down from his flat from the 4th floor of the building and died (May Allah give him peace of heart). Now the question. Was Allah deliberately giving a misfortune and testing him? If we say so, it will contradict the verse which states no misfortune happens except by our own hands. His child died due to the sheer negligence of those who are supposed to look after the child and Allah is not responsible for the act. The blame is entirely on us for the death of the child. Allah is not unfair to this kid or M.M.Akbar. The only thing is that Allah does not interfere to stop this child from falling down. Can Allah interfere and save this child? The answer to that is: Yes, He can but He won’t, because He has pledged NOT to make changes in laws He has established according to His will. But this incident could be test for M.M Akbar who lost his only kid.

I can give you numerous examples similar like the above. Also think about this. We know what is happening for the Muslims in Palestine and Iraq and many other places? Is Allah responsible for this situation? Can you say it is the will and decree of Allah the Muslims in Palestine Iraq suffer from the enemies? The fault is for the Muslims and what are happening are the natural consequences (Allah’s law of returns) of our acts and therefore a test from Allah.

I hope you are able to follow the points I am making

Wassalam

Last edited by salman; 09-21-2009 at 12:26 PM. Reason: removed funny tags
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:54 AM   #15
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Default Re: Is Allah responsible for TRAGEDIES and AFFLICTIONS?

Quote:
Brother, no where I posted or even implied it is "due to sins" tragedies and afflictions happen.
then you are taking the ayat out of context; the ayaat are referring to people's wrong doings and not general. The bad consequences do not result for man's good actions. Hence, it is referring to sins.

You ignored my question about the Prophets (peace be upon them). Why were they tested and trailed with? What did they do that they faced such consequences of their actions?

Again, keep in mind the context of the ayaat, the consequences referred are negative!

Quote:
Tragedies and afflictions happen not because Allah willed it to happen but because of man's own doing and consequences of his actions.
this statement of yours can be misunderstood and thus understood as statement of kufr. Nothing happens without the Will of Allah Azz wa Jal. If Allah wills, He can stop these tragedies afflicting those who are wrongdoers. What is correct to say is that ONE of the reasons why people are afflicted with tragedies is their own wrong doings. There is a huge difference between two sayings: 1) Allah does not will these tragedies 2) These tragedies are from Allah since noting happens without His will; however, one of the reasons for this is people's own sins.

I believe you are trying to get at the second statement and not the first one. The first one is the statement of kufr and, if my memory serves me right, it was the aqeedah of early heretical sects (i.e., Jahmiyyah, Mu'tazilite, Qadriyyah)

Quote:
Brother, you have stated, Allah could test the believers to see if they have strong imaan in Him. But Allah would not unjustly and arbitrarily test the believers. I will explain the point clearly.
I did not even touch the unjust part. What do people do which causes earth quakes, tsunamis, etc.? Wrong, Allah can test His creation with whatever He wants; read the ayaat of the Qur'an:
And certainly, We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to As-Sâbirun (the patient)

Who, when afflicted with calamity, say: "Truly! To Allâh we belong and truly, to Him we shall return."

[Surah al-Baqarah (2): 155-156 - interpretation of the meaning]
And you say

Quote:
Was Allah deliberately giving a misfortune and testing him? If we say so, it will contradict the verse which states no misfortune happens except by our own hands. His child died due to the sheer negligence of those who are supposed to look after the child and Allah is not responsible for the act. The blame is entirely on us for the death of the child. Allah is not unfair to this kid or M.M.Akbar.
Yes, the child died due to their negligence; however, how the child died is not relevant to the fact that it was written by Allah and Willed by Him that this child will die at this age. You cannot blame anyone for death of anyone because it already written down how long everyone is going to live; not overlooking the part where someone is unjust to others. We do not know the future and thus we cannot understand the wisdom behind the early death of this child. It could be that due to this fact they became Muslims. Allah is the Hakeem and we need to perceive fairness how He has described it and not perceive it using our limited knowledge and intellect. This could very well be test for the parents as you agree as Allah Azz wa Jal said that He Will test His creation.

and then you contradict yourself

Quote:
Yes, He can but He won’t, because He has pledged NOT to make changes in laws He has established according to His will. But this incident could be test for M.M Akbar who lost his only kid.
First, what laws are you talking about? I thought no laws were decided before and it was up to people to 'decide' how long they can live.

Second, you say Allah cannot randomly test people yet you admit that the loss of child's death could be test and Allah says in the Qur'an that He Will test us with losses, etc.!

You can dance around the issue and play with words all you want, but at the end of the day, the haqq is that nothing happens without the Will of Allah Azz wa Jal. Please read Belief in Qadr (Divine Decree) to get better understanding of what I mean.

Lastly, please stop buying this mu'tazailite talk and for Allah's Love find a good sunni shaykh in your area and study from him. Reading random articles online is not helping you to learn deen and rather they are taking you to wrong path and may Allah save us all from this fitnah, ameen.

and Allah knows best
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Old 09-11-2009, 06:27 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is Allah responsible for TRAGEDIES and AFFLICTIONS?

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You ignored my question about the Prophets (peace be upon them). Why were they tested and trailed with? What did they do that they faced such consequences of their actions?
Salam,


I did not ignore this question. I did explain the points in a clear way stating verses of from the Quran how Allah was testing the believers during Uhud war. There what happened for the Muslims, the fault was “from your own selves” (3:165). Allah never tested the believers whimsically. Allah was testing the believers "one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for (the booty)”. Can you point out one example, any test, any trial where Allah whimsically test the believers?

Quote:
Allah can test His creation with whatever He wants; read the ayaat of the Qur'an:
And certainly, We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to As-Sâbirun (the patient)

Who, when afflicted with calamity, say: "Truly! To Allâh we belong and truly, to Him we shall return."

[Surah al-Baqarah (2): 155-156 - interpretation of the meaning]


If you are telling me Allah will test the believers whimsically, you are wrong. The path towards success requires lot of effort and sacrifices. There has to be continuous struggle and effort with all the available resources to defeat the forces of evil. It requires great faith and patience and perseverance. See with what clarity Allah has said;

Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: "When (will come) the help of Allah?" Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near! (2:214)

As an example, the Quran speaks of the Battle of Ahzaab: “During that awful time, you were surrounded by the enemy forces, you were frightened blind with your hearts pounding wildly and (the not-so-convinced among) you were beginning to doubt the validity of Allah’s promises. Under such awesome circumstances, the convinced displayed their steadfastness in the face of problems! (33/10-11). Such are the situations when the righteous face (physical damage and loss)

There is no question of Allah whimsically testing the believers for fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives, fruits, etc. All these test and trails are natural situations the believers will have to face in the path of establishment of Allah’s laws. This is how Allah tests the believers. Look at the following verse;

“We know indeed the grief which their words do cause thee: it is not thee they reject: it is the Signs of Allah which the wicked contemn. Rejected were the Apostles before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the Words (and Decrees) of Allah.”(6:33 - 34).

Obviously, one needs, along with steadfastness, material equipment. That is why it says: “Be ready to defend your borders” (8:60). On a battlefield, the righteous suffer from a technical mistake just as any other fighting force. One very illustrative example from Muslim history is the Battle of Ohud where the Muslims were defeated incurring heavy losses and the Prophet, after being injured, had to be rescued.

For such occasions, the Quran comforts the righteous: “Why worry over your problems? Your opponents also face them” (4:104). “These universal laws apply to all mankind” (3:139).

Quote:
Yes, the child died due to their negligence; however, how the child died is not relevant to the fact that it was written by Allah and Willed by Him that this child will die at this age. You cannot blame anyone for death of anyone because it already written down how long everyone is going to live;

You are referring to the verse 57:22 in which it says; “No calamity comes to your society or self which had not been written in a book before We created this Universe”.

This is commonly taken to mean that every calamity is pre-destined and is unavoidable. In such a helpless situation, men must patiently take what comes naturally. In the first instance, this interpretation of the verses in question nullifies the entire concept of the very basis of Din (the Quranic system, ...... the Law of Returns. Allah appears to be contradicting His own verses like “Man gets only what he strives for”, “Every calamity which befalls Man is of his own doing”, “Allah neither blesses nor punishes whitout due cause and reason -- it is all a consequence of Man’s own actions”. etc.

The Quran doesn’t contradict itself

Thus, this interpretation does not appear reasonable. Let us, then, try to see what the verses in question really mean: In this regard, we have study the Quran and verify in what context the term “book” is used in the Quran.

1. Sura Nisa uses the word Kitab for prohibition of marriage to certain relatives. (4:24) كِتَابَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ Yousuf Ali has translated as “Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you”, meaning thereby that he translates kitab as ‘order’.

2. Sura Baqara uses the word kitab in (2/235). Yousuf Ali translates the verse thus: “nor resolve on the tie of marriage till the term prescribed is fulfilled” حَتَّىٰ يَبْلُغَ الْكِتَابُ أَجَلَهُ Hence ‘kitab’ has been translated as ‘prescribed’ i.e., prescribed by Allah. This is His order, decision or LAW.

3. “prayers are enjoined on believers at stated (prescribed) times.” (4:103)

فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ إِنَّ الصَّلَاةَ كَانَتْ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ كِتَابًا مَوْقُوتًا

4. “In it (the Quran) there are established laws (kutub)”. (98/3)

5.“About lonely women: “You don’t give them what has been determined (by law - kuteba) for them”. (4/12)

6. Sura An’aam talks about Allah’s knowledge encompassing the Universe - every leaf which falls off a tree, grains in the darkness of the earth, good and bad, dry and wet - everything is in ‘the clear book’ (6/59). Obviously, the book here means the laws of the physical universe.

7. Sura Aal-Imran talks about the ‘established’ regulations given in clear-cut terms (as compared to the ‘similes and, examples’ to give universal truths). These ‘established’ (محكمات ) are referred to as ‘mother of the book’ (3/6), ‘Mother of the book’ means Allah’s knowledge which is absolutely comprehensive -- “Don’t you know that Allah knows what ever is there in the skies and the earth? That (knowledge) is in a book” (22:70), says Sura Hajj. Elsewhere, it is referred to as “the clear book” (27:75).

Therefore, each and every occurrence in the physical universe, as well as Man’s social world, takes place under determined laws enacted by Allah, which is referred as “the book”.

Allah has pre-determined laws not only for calamities but also for alleviating them. For example, fire burns, but balm soothes. The words ‘whatever Allah has written for us’ do not mean our pre-determined fate but whatever law has already been established. Fore example, see (2:187) where it says: ‘Strive to get whatever Allah has written for you. “obviously, ‘written’ in this verse does not mean pre-determined fate’ because that is inevitable and, as such, does not require any effort to get.
Quote:
Second, you say Allah cannot randomly test people yet you admit that the loss of child's death could be test and Allah says in the Qur'an that He Will test us with losses, etc.!


You did not understand the point. What I was saying is that Allah is not unfair to the child. The child died due to the negligence of those who are supposed to look after the child and also based on the natural laws, and pre-determined laws enacted by Allah (not predetermined fate), i.e. if we leave a child on a balcony where there is no proper protection with no one to take care on the 4th floor, the child is bound to fall down and die. But the 'after effect' of this was a test for the parents of the child. This is similar like what Muslims suffered during Uhud when some Muslims disobeyed the commander and the enemies overpowered them and the end result was test from Allah and great trial for the Muslims.

Wassalam

Last edited by salman; 09-21-2009 at 10:42 AM. Reason: removed funny tags
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:28 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is Allah responsible for TRAGEDIES and AFFLICTIONS?

akhee, do you actually read what you say and when did I say that Allah tests His creation whimsically? Please do not attack me with a straw man. All I said is that Allah tests His creation with different things. Sometime it could be that the action was due to our own actions but not always.

You cleverly play with words, quote the ayat out of context instead of answering the questions. And you even agree with me yet you continue to argue for sake of argument. Your example of uhud is pathetic attempt to answer the question regarding the Prophets (peace be upon them). How are they two related? Was it Prophet's (peace be upon him) fault that the Quraysh gave me hard time? What did Prophet (peace be upon him) do which caused such a trail and test? Or did he chose to become Prophet (peace be upon him)? Why his will was not taken under account? Why did Allah force prophethood on him?

I already told you that the ayaat, relating to calamities falling on us due to our actions, have to do with negatives aspects of our actions: sins. You understand this if you read them in the context and read the tafsir. However, you won't since you are self learned scholar and mufasir. and the garbage agenda of modernists is more beloved to you than the truth.

You ignored my other question related to natural disasters. If everything happens due to people's actions then what did people do that they are afflicted with natural disasters? There are number of disasters appear from Allah without having to do with people's actions: earth quakes, tsunamis, plagues, etc.

Here is another example of contradiction:

Quote:
If you are telling me Allah will test the believers whimsically, you are wrong.
Quote:
There is no question of Allah whimsically testing the believers for fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives, fruits, etc. All these test and trails are natural situations the believers will have to face in the path of establishment of Allah’s laws.
answer following questions in yes and no ONLY:
1 - Does Allah test the creation?
2 - Is Allah not the Creator of these natural laws and situations?
3 - Did Allah not write everything down in the book before He created everything?
4 - Do you know Arabic well know to go interpret the Qur'an?
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Last edited by salman; 09-12-2009 at 07:45 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:34 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is Allah responsible for TRAGEDIES and AFFLICTIONS?

Allah is testing his creations by two ways not only by placing hardships but also by sending graces and placing happiness to sons of Adam, Its a test in either ways

Amazing is the affair of the believer, verily all of his affair is good and this is not for no one except the believer. If something of good/happiness befalls him he is grateful and that is good for him. If something of harm befalls him he is patient and that is good for him" (Saheeh Muslim #2999)


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All I said is that Allah tests His creation with different things. Sometime it could be that the action was due to our own actions but not always.
and those "different things" that bro salam talked about can be good things or bad things. And whether they are due to our actions or not they both fall under the taqdeer -in the preserved book "al-Lawh al-Ma7fod"- of Allah before this whole univers be created
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:34 AM   #19
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Default Re: Is Allah responsible for TRAGEDIES and AFFLICTIONS?

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You ignored my other question related to natural disasters. If everything happens due to people's actions then what did people do that they are afflicted with natural disasters? There are number of disasters appear from Allah without having to do with people's actions: earth quakes, tsunamis, plagues, etc.
I will answer this point first.

The universe operates according to firm and permanent laws of Nature formulated by Allah. Every event in the universe takes place within the bounds of these laws. It is known as the ‘the Law of Cause and Effect’. Man has been created with the potentiality of discovering the laws of Nature, which enables him to harness the natural forces. Earlier Man was unaware of the natural law of cause and effect and was ignorant of the possibility of harnessing these forces. Therefore, every destructive event was seen as an accident. A weak, defenseless and vulnerable man had only one way to react -- to submit & plead to it for mercy. This is what the early Man did. He bowed in submission to that huge fiery ball rising from the east every morning. He cowered down in front of thunder and lightning. Terrified by the overflowing river waters, he pleaded to it for respite. The lion, the snake and fire and rain became his idols.

Allah has formulated and established laws for all things in the universe, exercising absolute control. The universe is bound to follow the laws of Nature. And the Quran summarizes this in (45:13): “Allah has made the entire universe conquerable (you can harness it). There are clear signs in this for those who care to think”. Look at this verse also “Don’t they ponder upon (the fact) that all things on earth are controllable by Man? (22:65)

The Quran says: “We have not created the skies and the earth and what is between them (the Universe), but rightfully (بالحـق)” (15/75. Haq here means something constructive. Contrarily, ‘باطل’ (wrong) means destructive. Therefore, the Quran pronounces the universe constructive (good) as a whole. It is upto Man to delve into the mechanics of it all to arrive at the ‘rightness’ of the universe around him.

“In the creation of the earth and the heavens and the alternation of night and day, there are signs for those gifted with understanding. These people keep Allah’s Laws in mind whilst standing, sitting or reclining. After reflecting upon the creation of the heavens and the earth, they cry out, “O our Sustainer! You have not created this Universe in vain” (3:189)

Man’s efforts to provide practical proof for ‘O our Preserver! You haven’t produced (all) this wrongfully’ have harnessed the hitherto awesomely destructive forces of Nature --- and considered ‘evil’ --- and have rendered them useful, constructive and ‘good’. Rain water is flood if not controlled but is a revitalizing life source when harnessed. Uncontrolled fire is another such force. Yet another example is a wide variety of poisonous creatures (snakes, scorpions, etc.) which are now a valuable source of antidotes.

It is also the duty of mankind to harness the forces of nature for the well being of mankind. As it is made clear in the Quran, no calamity is sent to any nation whimsically. Ofcourse Allah says in the Quran, “No calamity, misfortune or disaster befalls but by Allah’s permission”. Here “To permit”, means “to let (something happen)” or “to allow (something to occur)”. Although Allah lets the calamities befall, the real CAUSE of all of man’s calamities is the man himself. There is a big difference between “to let something happen” and “to cause something to happen”. Allah has made laws for everything and one of His most important laws is the law of cause & effect. He has defined or pre-determined effect(s) for every cause. He has granted man the free will and empowered him with the ability to set off the cause(s). When a cause is triggered by man, Allah lets the (pre-determined) effect happen. In case of man’s calamities, the cause is always triggered by the man himself; Allah just lets the calamities befall. He says to man in the Quran, “Whatever calamity, misfortune or disaster befalls you, it is because of what your (own) hands have earned”. The verse clearly points out that man is himself responsible for his calamities.

In this context it is important to ponder over the following verse;

Evil has appeared on the land and the sea because of what the hands of men have earned. That Allâh may make them taste a part of that which they have done, in order that they may turn back from disobedience.” [30:41]


Allah states clearly in the Quran that no nation survives or dies away whimsically (without cause or reason). “And thy Lord would not destroy the cities unjustly while the people thereof were righteous.”(11:117) وَمَا كَانَ رَبُّكَ لِيُهْلِكَ الْقُرَىٰ بِظُلْمٍ وَأَهْلُهَا مُصْلِحُونَ

“There was, indeed, a Sign for Saba in their homeland -- two gardens, one on the right hand and one on the left; and We said to them, 'Eat of the provision of your Lord and give thanks to Him. Your town is a beautiful town and your Lord Most Forgiving'. But they turned away; so We sent against them a devastating flood. And We gave them, in place of their two excellent gardens, two gardens bearing bitter fruit and containing tamarisk and a few lote-trees. “Thus We requited them because of their ingratitude; and it is only the ungrateful that We requite in this manner.”

“And God sets forth the parable of a city which enjoyed security and peace; its provisions come to it in plenty from every quarter; but it was ungrateful for the favours of God, so God made it taste hunger and fear which clothed it like a garment because of what they used do.”

Narrating the eye-opening accounts of several past nations, the Quran repeats the truth: “No settlement is destroyed unless its inhabitants are unfair” وَمَا كُنَّا مُهْلِكِي الْقُرَىٰ إِلَّا وَأَهْلُهَا ظَالِمُونَ


Quote:
All I said is that Allah tests His creation with different things. Sometime it could be that the action was due to our own actions but not always.


You have said "not always", please give me one example. If you say "not always" to mean Allah "sometimes" randomly or whimsically test the believers, you are wrong.


Quote:
Your example of uhud is pathetic attempt to answer the question regarding the Prophets (peace be upon them). How are they two related? Was it Prophet's (peace be upon him) fault that the Quraysh gave me hard time? What did Prophet (peace be upon him) do which caused such a trail and test? Or did he chose to become Prophet (peace be upon him)? Why his will was not taken under account? Why did Allah force prophethood on him?


The prophets (peace be upon them) had to face trails, tests, difficulties and hardships from unbelievers when they questioned their established beliefs and way of life. The unbelievers plotted against the prophets and Quran even mentions about prophets who were killed. In the initial stage of their mission it is natural to face difficulties and hardships, but they have been commanded by Allah to remain patient all the time. Here also the Allahs natural law operates. Allah is not deliberately giving trails, tests and difficulties to the prophets, but they face these trials and difficulties because the enemies are temporarity well equipped and have more resources with them. In this stage Allah requesting the prophets to show extream patience.

“Be patient. But your patience is only by Allah. Do not be grieved by them and do not be constricted by the plots they hatch. Allah is with those who fulfil their duty and with those who are good-doers.” (16: 127-128)

“We know indeed the grief which their words do cause thee: it is not thee they reject: it is the Signs of Allah which the wicked contemn. Rejected were the Apostles before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the Words (and Decrees) of Allah.”(6:33 - 34).<o:p></o:p>

You question why Allah imposed prophethood on the prophet is silly. Allah never imposed any prophethood on anyone. Even the prophets had the freedom to choose a path of hisown choice and deviate from Allah's direction. But that will be serious issue in the eye of Allah. See this verse;

"And if he (the prophet) had forged and attributed any sayings to Us, We would, surely, have seized him by the right hand, And then, surely, We would have cut his life-vein, And not one of you could have held Our punishment off from him." (69:46)

Wassalam

Last edited by salman; 09-21-2009 at 10:40 AM. Reason: removed funny tags
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Old 09-12-2009, 12:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is Allah responsible for TRAGEDIES and AFFLICTIONS?

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