> Muslims are Intolerant?

[salman]

Mr. Silver, you have gone beyond my tolerance level; one last single advice for you: READ CAREFULLY OTHER PEOPLE'S REPLIES

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

well, if that was true then the Messenger of God, Muhammad revealed in the Qur'an the words of God which is. "if you truely loved God, then follow me, and surely Allah will love you..."

IN this verse, God is saying that if we really loved God, then we would FOLLOW the footsteps of Muhammad. And this is applied to every prophet. Before Muhammad, if the followers of Jesus truly loved God, then the sign that would make the claim of their love to have any value and truth behind it is if they followed Jesus.

I assume the verse you quoted was “Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love allah, follow me; allah will love you and forgive you your sins. allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Aal-e-Imran, 3:31

I know this kind of verse is often found in the Qu’ran but Christians and Jews would have a lot of trouble with this idea. It is not something we find in the Bible except about Jesus and then in a limited way as the focus is almost always on the teaching not the person. Indeed, Moses was specifically rebuked when he made a similar claim.

Is this the Islamic position, that Prophet Mohammed is in some sense a perfect man who can as it were intercede with God for us?

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

that is agreed upon, however the problem is when you have observed that the practice of praying equals the lifeless ritual that you have depicted for it rather than the fact that the holy attributes characterized in the last portion of this paragraph is the direct result of praying 5 times a day.

We have a saying that for each salaah (prayer), you are to come out better than you were before you performed it. In other words, if your prayer did not enhance your relation to holiness, then the tree did not bear fruit. But at least he planted the tree.

YOu see, we are to observe Gods laws plain and simple. When we observe them, this is our effort into planting the tree. NOW, these trees should bear fruit, however, not all people (trees) bear fruit. rather some remain fruitless or have very little fruit, and others have plenty and over bearing fruit. But AT the very least, a human is suppose to plant the tree. If one does not plant the tree i.e. not observe the laws, then he will really be judged in accordance to his affair (as to why he chose to not plant the tree)

I did not say praying 5 times a day was a lifeless ritual only the self-evident truth that it could become one. Here if I understand your earlier posts we would more or less agree. If praying is a kind of automatic route to blessing then that is something I have never heard before and I would not agree. Prayer for Christians and I guess Muslims is like oxygen, it’s our natural place to be but it has to come out of love and devotion to God and we like you prepare our hearts and minds for prayer.

Christians have set prayers of all kinds and regard the Psalms as prayers but though we start off with set prayer it then moves into open prayer of a free character. Is this the same with you?

Christian also talk of fruit. In Galatians 5:22-24 (Amplified Bible) we read:
22. But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness, 23. Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law that can bring a charge].

The implication here is that someone who is following God has is developing ALL these characteristics not just some of them. Is this a list you can agree with?

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

When it comes to events, such as those quoted earlier we cannot rationally accept them as commands, laws so we can go off an burn down a village or slaughter its inhabitants. We might learn spiritual truth from these stories but they are shut up as we say and must never be used as justifcations for doing the same thing.

this is complete and utter lunacy and this is what destroys societies.

I ask everyone to reread this quote and then reflect on the following hadeeth of the messenger of Allah narrated in Bukharee called the Hadeeth of Safeena. It is a hadeth that is Golden. It is a hadeeth that is actually a domestic policy for the Islamic society. everything that silver has tried to argue should be understood in light of this hadeeth.

I don’t follow your line of reasoning here. Are you saying that EVENTS are like are commands? That is if Moses struck down 6,000 people because of rebellion against God then we are to follows his example? This is the particular event, no matter what its context or circumstances becomes a command?

If instead you mean that an event like this is just a story and not a command but just an indication that we must guard against corruption then we agree otherwise not.

[al-boriqee]

my patience and tolerance level usually dies down when it is lured into the sea of obstinacy with illogic being the salt of this sea. when I find time and wasteful energy to continue this, I will respond to these preposterous points of yours

[amar_labedi]

Assalamalikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraktuhu
Mashallah nice advise
We have to tolerate these type of people and handle them with patience with good and authentic sources from Quran and hadiths so that he atleast gets through the correct thing we cannot compell any one to understand our point it is upto him whether he understands accepts the truth or not.
Jazakallah

amar

[Umm Marwa Mustafa]

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

I did not say praying 5 times a day was a lifeless ritual only the self-evident truth that it could become one. Here if I understand your earlier posts we would more or less agree. If praying is a kind of automatic route to blessing then that is something I have never heard before and I would not agree. Prayer for Christians and I guess Muslims is like oxygen, it’s our natural place to be but it has to come out of love and devotion to God and we like you prepare our hearts and minds for prayer.

Christians have set prayers of all kinds and regard the Psalms as prayers but though we start off with set prayer it then moves into open prayer of a free character. Is this the same with you?

Christian also talk of fruit. In Galatians 5:22-24 (Amplified Bible) we read:
22. But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness, 23. Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law that can bring a charge].

The implication here is that someone who is following God has is developing ALL these characteristics not just some of them. Is this a list you can agree with?

1. There is something we call Salat and du`a. And we do not limit these two to being the only means of worship/ibadah.

2. Praying is done in a systematic way, that is 5 days a day (exc sunnah prayers). This does not mean, because Muslims pray 5 times a day, during a specified time, therefore they have no love or will to obey their lord. In fact, our act of worship illustrates our never-ending love and obedience to our lord. A christian may pray when he feels the holy Spirit within him, or when he is in that particular worshipping mood. However the Muslim is not the same!

3. And yes, we have many characteristics recorded in the Prophet (Pbuh) tradition and mentioned in the Qur`an e.g. God loving those who are patient.

4. There are different dua`s you could say during different times.

(I hope you come back after the ban).