> Muslims are Intolerant?

[salman]

akhee Abdul, leave this conversation to me. I would also recon. akhee borqiee and others to spend their valuable time on something else. If you want to add something or correct me, pm me. Either Mr. Silver is ignorant of reality or deliberately deceptive about the truth of reality - either of the options only shows the intellectual defect in his arguments. The arguments that he has presented are rubbish and deserve no response, but for sake of response and to establish a learning ground for others, I'll respond to him, insha'Allah.

akhee Qatada and sister ayah, insha'Allah try to benefit from this conversation. I will try my best to show you two the pure sunni responses to this gult (falsehood)

Mr. Silver, you will have to be patient with me because I am not free now days so my responses could take time. Let's go over this slowly and settle this (once for all) in one thread instead of repeating same things over and over again. If the truth is showed to you and your arguments are buried to the ground by showing flaws and corruption in them, then after that if I came across same line of arguments (by you in another thread) it will be deleted. I have advised you before that use this opportunity to learn about Islam; however, you seem to ignore it.

Let's start from the basics:

1. Do you accept everything in the Bible and consider that a divine revelation?
2. Do you think that man-made laws are acceptable and west has almost perfect laws for people?
3. So according to you if someone does something in the name of religion then it is due to some teachings of the religion, correct?
4. You think that men and women should have equal rights, meaning whatever rights men have then women should do the same and vice versa. If it is not the case then it is gender discrimination, correct?
5. Who decides these rights and laws? or morality in general? As a christian do you take morality from the Bible or the secular laws?

I think this will do for now!

Please do not forget to use the quote feature when responding to me. If you still have not learned about this, please refer to How to quote other people

[syilla]

i think he should be tolerate for us being intolerant...than he is intolerant too.

Whats wrong being intolerant as if the muslims hate him or something... We just don't like the act and not the man itself.

Everyone is intolerant of something... huhu.

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum,
Ok good idea brother salman, jazakAllah khair because to be honest I feel like I4m about to loose my patience with our guest here ^_^.

SilverLJ,
You have proven to be intelligent by some of your posts, yet you persist on making the same types of fallacies in debate over and over again. I really don't see the point in repeating the same conversation again. All I'm going to say in reply is:
In Dutch we have this proverb which loosely translates to:
"If you want to beat a dog, you can always find a stick".
May Allah subhana wa ta'ala guide you.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

SilverLJ, You have proven to be intelligent by some of your posts, yet you persist on making the same types of fallacies in debate over and over again. I really don't see the point in repeating the same conversation again. All I'm going to say in reply is: In Dutch we have this proverb which loosely translates to: "If you want to beat a dog, you can always find a stick".
May Allah subhana wa ta'ala guide you.

My I answer this in two parts.

ONLY I can create a fallacy but you it seems are above that and as I have said on a number of occasions that is paranoia. Just to show how narrow and limited your view is I quote from your earlier post:

.... man and woman are very differently from a biological/physiological /psychological point of view. I seem to recall explaining you about stuff like hormones, and the distance between pupils causing panoramic or focussed view, I also seem to recall explaining you the difference between equality of value, and equality in rules, and why treating different people the same is a form of discrimination, and so on do we have to do that whole conversation again, or am I confused and was this somebody else?)

Here you claim to know all about the biology of woman or perhaps you are claiming that Islam does, that somehow it's all decided, it's all known, indeed you know it all and hence showing you know little of science and instead use pseudo science to back up the claim that discrimanting against women is a correct way to behave, that it is God's way. This indeed is a fallacy, do you really think biology is at its end; do you think all science is at and end that Islam knows everything?

Why don't you go and look at say Gerald Callahan's book "Between XY and XY: intersexuality and the Myth of two sexes" and find out from an expert. Or if you want to see how surprising science can be go and find out about a device called a memristor and see how analogy was creatively used and is being used.

In English we have the Nixon proverb: "The jawbone of a donkey is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time" and that is something we should all take to heart.

[SilverLJ]

Can I just ask by way of clarifucations can we agree on the following definitions:

Discrimination - unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice. In that sense one might be prejudiced regarding sex, age, race, religeon etc.

Prejudice - a partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue or situation, bias or preconceptions leading to adverse judgement or opinion.

Tolerance - willingness to recognise and respect the beliefs and practices of others.

If we cannot agree then any discussion is pointless. I accept of course that English is a very flexible language and all the words above have more than one meaning but I have expressed them here in terms of the debate over Islam and tolerant or not?

Let's here what you have to say and then I will present several cases where I argue that Islam is intolerant.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by salman

akhee Abdul, leave this conversation to me. I would also recon. akhee borqiee and others to spend their valuable time on something else. If you want to add something or correct me, pm me. Either Mr. Silver is ignorant of reality or deliberately deceptive about the truth of reality - either of the options only shows the intellectual defect in his arguments. The arguments that he has presented are rubbish and deserve no response, but for sake of response and to establish a learning ground for others, I'll respond to him, insha'Allah.

this is not an argument - so far I have been called a "filthy secularist", "ignorant", "deliberately deceptive"', "intelectually not up to it", "my words are rubbish". In fact I have done a survey of the board and whenever anyone disagrees these types of mild insult are thrown out. I claim no intellectual superiority but want to learn but I cannot (can any one?) learn just by being told what the answer is as if there is no other possibility - that is intelectually bankrupt.

Originally Posted by salman

Mr. Silver, you will have to be patient with me because I am not free now days so my responses could take time. Let's go over this slowly and settle this (once for all) in one thread instead of repeating same things over and over again. If the truth is showed to you and your arguments are buried to the ground by showing flaws and corruption in them, then after that if I came across same line of arguments (by you in another thread) it will be deleted. I have advised you before that use this opportunity to learn about Islam; however, you seem to ignore it.

I agree as long as you agree that once and for all if the truth is shown to you, your arguments are buried to the ground by me showing flaws and corruption in them? If you cannot agree to this, then all that is keeping you alive is prejudice. Silver - I will answer below but you have to accept that each one is a case for an extended discussion and no simple yes/no answer is possible.

Originally Posted by salman

Let's start from the basics:

Do you accept everything in the Bible and consider that a divine revelation?

I accept that it is the word of God and we have to learn what God is saying to us, we have to interpret and apply its meaning for today. I am note sure why you asked this but I will add do not accept that I have to sacrifice animals, stone for adultery etc if that is what you are getting at. God for me has set the bar higher.

Originally Posted by salman

Do you think that man-made laws are acceptable and west has almost perfect laws for people?

of course man made laws are acceptable, I don't like all of them and its obvious that are never going to be all perfect. One cannot expect that the Bible or Qu'ran has anything to say about a whole range of laws that we have to day: nation states, building regulations, cars, invetrio fertilazation etc etc

Originally Posted by salman

So according to you if someone does something in the name of religion then it is due to some teachings of the religion, correct?

yes of course but one cannot totally generalise here, that would be absurd. The crusades were legitimised by a Pope, Jihad is used to justify suicide bombings etc etc.

Originally Posted by salman

You think that men and women should have equal rights, meaning whatever rights men have then women should do the same and vice versa. If it is not the case then it is gender discrimination, correct?

I am for equality. I also want to be as clear as I can here and I am not advocating some kind of anarchy. I think my position can be stated as wanting civil or social liberty as Mill described it, "the nature and limits of power which can be legitimately exercised by society over the individual" whether they are male or female if it is less that that it is discrimination. So I want all women to have the same opportunity and rights as me to become doctors, soldiers, tennis players, business managers etc..

Originally Posted by salman

Who decides these rights and laws? or morality in general? As a Christian do you take morality from the Bible or the secular laws?

in society, any society it is the government (or whatever is its equivalent) that decides. If you mean personal morality (because I cannot force it on anyone) then I take the Bible teaching as my guide through God's Holy Spirit and its central principle "Love God with all your heart and mind and spirit and your neighbour as yourself.

An Aside - No doubt you will say God is the one who should rule but sadly in Iran and Sudan and Saudi Arabia corruption is as widespread as anywhere else with the added elements of oppression. Go look at the lives of the first say 10 Caliph's and count how many were assassinated.

[SilverLJ]

I enjoyed this post but just to balance the books so to speak let's start from the basics using you excellent set of questions where I have made suitable adjustments:

1. Do you accept everything in the Qu'ran and hadith and consider that a divine revelation?
2. Do you think that man-made laws are acceptable anywhere and has there ever been a state that had almost perfect laws for people?
3. So according to you if someone does something in the name of religion then it is due to some teachings of the religion, correct?
4. You think that men and women should have equal rights, meaning whatever rights men have then women should do the same and vice versa. If it is not the case then it is gender discrimination, correct?
5. Who decides these rights and laws? or morality in general? As a Muslim do you take morality from the Qu'ran am hadith or the secular laws?

[salman]

^please edit your post and use the quote feature, thank you. Secondly, you have thrown this breaking rules/insults accusation before and I have asked you to show us some evidence that members have broken the rules by resorting to personal insults and you have yet to show it or yet to report any post. So, talk more with evidences and less with emotions and please do not lie, otherwise I will have to act harshly. If you don't like our attitude of dealings then you are more than welcome to leave; no one will miss you trust me. You can go to other forums where you can bash Islam more "freely" and preach your corrupt methodology.

[Abdul-Fattah]

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

My I answer this in two parts.
ONLY I can create a fallacy but you it seems are above that and as I have said on a number of occasions that is paranoia. Just to show how narrow and limited your view is I quote from your earlier post:

I never made any such claim, saying I am unable to make mistakes. Of course I can make mistakes, and when you see me making one, please do tell, however, so far all the alleged mistakes you tried to pin on me were strawmen arguments. So Am I paranoia and limited for pointing out that you misinterpret my words? Am I narrow minded? Not at all, you are the one who's narrow minded. You see me saying one thing and you assume that I meant something else, or you assume that what I said was motivated by an underlying argument of line of reasoning. If you then deduct from this, that I am the narrow minded one, then surely you've done a hypocritical thing

Here you claim to know all about the biology of woman

Did I say that? No, you claim that I said that. But nowhere in that quote does it say I know all about biology. I know a bit about it though, and enough to know for certain that men and woman are different (even a 5 year old knows that actually).

or perhaps you are claiming that Islam does, that somehow it's all decided, it's all known, indeed you know it all and hence showing you know little of science and instead use pseudo science to back up the claim

I explained the scientific details of what I said the previous time we discussed this. So because I did not feel like repeating myself, now I'm suddenly a pseudo-scientists abusing science? What a dirty tactic you use. When I made my earlier argument the first time with detailed examples, you didn't even bother (or weren't able) to reply to it. Now that I've limited myself to only a brief summary of the previously mentioned argument, you use ad hominim attacks?

that discrimanting against women is a correct way to behave, that it is God's way.

again strawmen attack, I didn't say that discrimination is correct, in fact I clearly said:
"Simple answer: Islam does not discriminate."
So my position was never that discrimination is correct, instead my position was that there is no discrimination in Islam.

This indeed is a fallacy, do you really think biology is at its end; do you think all science is at and end that Islam knows everything?

Again a strawmen-argument, I didn't claim this. And whether or not Biology is at it's end is completely irrelevant. Just because we don't know everything, doesn't mean we can't make deductions on what we do know.

Why don't you go and look at say Gerald Callahan's book "Between XY and XY: intersexuality and the Myth of two sexes" and find out from an expert.

How does that book have any relevance here? How does hermphrodism or other genetic sex-related defects refute that there are indeed differences between the two classical sexes?

Or if you want to see how surprising science can be go and find out about a device called a memristor and see how analogy was creatively used and is being used.

Again a strawmen argument. I never said that analogies are useless. In fact I said from the start that they have a use. My position however was that they consist of flawed logic, and therefor cannot be used as arguments in a debate, but only as clarification.

Can I just ask by way of clarifucations can we agree on the following definitions:
Discrimination - unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice. In that sense one might be prejudiced regarding sex, age, race, religeon etc.

Prejudice is not a requirement for discrimination. discrimination is unfair treatment based on different charesteristics. The key word however is "unfair". Not all "different treatment should by default be considered unfair. Like I said, often the opposite is true, often it is more fair to treat people differently because of their inhereted diffrences.

I have given you the benefit of the doubt on numerous occasions I have debated with you in a respectfull way and allowed you to post as long as it was according to forum rules. And in those cases where I judged you crossed the rules I chose to merely point that out or give a warning rather then deleting your posts and so on. So consider this my last warning: if you want to persists in these attacks ad hominim, where you slander me for being narrow minded and the like. If you persist on assuming you know how I think and continue attacking me agressivly with such strawmen arguments, I will ban you from the forum.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by salman

^please edit your post and use the quote feature, thank you. Secondly, you have thrown this breaking rules/insults accusation before and I have asked you to show us some evidence that members have broken the rules by resorting to personal insults and you have yet to show it or yet to report any post. So, talk more with evidences and less with emotions and please do not lie, otherwise I will have to act harshly. If you don't like our attitude of dealings then you are more than welcome to leave; no one will miss you trust me. You can go to other forums where you can bash Islam more "freely" and preach your corrupt methodology.

You must as always act with integrity and do as you see fit. But I have been charcaterised by you as one who tells lies and in another (now removed post) depicted as thinking like a "filthy secularist". I object to being called a liar or even hinting that I am one, call me a secularist if you wish but not a filthy one.

I have not issued any insults as far as I know but simply indulged in what you yourself called "harsh criticism" or fair comment. For example, you claim to have a pure Islamic way of thinking and it is fair comment for me to point out that to be self-righteousness. In another case I pointed out that those who claim to have all the facts on anything are paranoid, again that is fair comment just as it was fair comment for you to say my argument were "utter rubbish".

This is nothing to do with emotions and all to do with you in my view avoiding the points being made. In many places I have included sources and evidence so I cannot see your point. For example, in a recent post Abdul appeared to speak with authority on the Biology of women (without any refs) to support Islam's view on their role my view was that his view was narrow minded and and I suggested further reading. Abdul again argued about using analogy in arguments and I pointed out that he was in my view wrong and it is used in science all the time (there are only 5 ways to solve problems and it is one of them) and again suggested he look up one modern scientific example where he might see it in use.

I have answered your questions as best I can but it looks as if you have now decided to ignore them. I can do nothing about that, it's a matter for you and if I am not missed then that is just life.