> Muslims are Intolerant?

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by Pk_#2

See there's this guy that keeps bugging me about how Islam is so intolerant and that Muslims too are intolerant because of Islam,

He doesn't like the way we treat women and says that Muslims treat women like crap and kill them through honour killings and so on.. he doesn't listen to me when I tell him that most Muslim reverts are Women and that the Qur'an mentions women alongside men and doesn't treat them unfairly, but he still follows the stereotypes and goes on to talk about how oppressed Muslim women are =| I think he gets his knowledge from the media or some unknown place from outer space,

Please tell me what I can do to make him understand.

asalamu alaikum

well, in this case, you can ONLY do one of two things
1. you can treat him according to the level that he is upon. And since his level of understanding is obviously to the point of no return, then it should obviously tell you that you would have a greater probability of receiving a response from a literal wall. Therefore leave him in his euphoria in this islamaphobia
OR
2. Use the argument that Acid first proposed. His argument is simple and to the point and if you practice it, then if he is open minded, it will cause him to be dumbfounded thereby causing him to believe that what he initially held was nothing more than an absurdity. However, if he chooses the path of obstinancy in the wake of being presented with Acid's argument, then at this juncture, you go back to the default path which is to follow the first point and just simply avoid him and allow him to remain in his euphoria of islamaphobia. I have found that people who are on this high have been afflicted with an affliction worse than those who use crack cocaine and crystal meth. At least with these drugs, there is some level of human intervention to help them overcome it. As for these people who are on the high of Islamaphobia, there is no help for them.

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

This starts off quite well but misses the point a bit, Islam might in theory be tolerant but what about practice?

Islam is the theoretical aspect and Muslims are the practical aspect. logically speaking the two are different. What you wish to have us adopt about Islam is almost as insane as someone proposing that murder is an acceptable idea in western thought merely on the basis that murder is mostly practiced on a general level in the west more so than in other places. Muslims, or anyone else for that matter, I do not think are that stupid to fall into such a trap as to accept the idea that the west accepts and tolerates murder simply on the basis that most murder that happens on earth comes from its own inhabitants.

I can give you dozens of examples

Of course. Ican give trillions of examples of various tyranical practices in the west, but you do not see us or anyone else for that matter suggest that these are inherent values of the west. We don;t stoop to such a low as you have done sir.

and the site Islam: Making a True Difference in the World can give you thousands and you can google up many more yourself. If you simply shut your mind to that and use the frankly silly argument that 'if its bad it cannot be Islam' then you turn your back on a serious issue, convincing yourself that it does not exist and thereby condoning evil.

firstly, when someone states "if its bad, then its not Islam" is not called in any language from a pragmatic standpoint as "turning your back on the isue". When soemone states "if it is bad then it is not Islam" then actualy, what they have done was they have disassociated that which is not Islam from that which is Islam. And from that point FORWARD, do they then tackle the issue, and they don't turn a blind eye to the issue as you have suggested. Bu I already know what you said "turning yout backs". The reason why you stated so is because the fact that Muslims do not behave as preposterous as you and come to the same preposterous conclusions as yourself thereby allowing you to condemn them by stating that they turn their backs because NOT turning our backs ENTAILS thwarting and trashing Islam and critiquing Islam itself. That would be as ludacrous as blaming christianity for the practices of Hitler.

The all embracing claim that Christianity is all about evil is a monstrous lie,

your right, it is a lie. Im glad muslims don't entertain this idea.

Jesus is at the centre of Christianity so according to you He is all about evil so you condemn what the Qu'ran commends.

if we were to suppose that your concocted reality was true (that we regard christianity as all evil) for arguments sake of course, then my reply would be that Jesus is NOT at all the centre of christiandom. Jesus and what he preached is in one vally, and what you and all christians believe is in another universe.

I pray to God that he will open your eyes to what is good before its too late. You might also consider what Joseph Conrad said

you pray to God while invoking the sentiments of a filthy secularist. ever heard of "ajeeb". truely, ajeeb

Visionaries work everlasting evil on earth. Their Utopias inspire in the mass of mediocre minds a disgust of reality and a contempt for the secular logic of human development.

thats fine and dandy, but there is one slight problem with that. every human is a visionary. everyone has a mode of thought and their ideal format for how society should be. The very fact that he professed these words only reveals the utter and inherent density of his hypocrisy. How dare a secularist such as Joseph to claim visionaries as the root of evil, while exempting him and his secular ilk of this very platform.

If "visionaryISM" is to be regarded as the ultimate evil, then what about a vision that a visionary envisions where he excludes his vision from the evil of other visionaries. If visionaries are the ultimate evil, then the secular visionaries are the root that has produced ultimate evils in every planet, in every system, in every galaxy, in every dimension anbd their evil is on top of evil for the simple fact that they don't accept their views as visionary in nature. The fact that they could exclude themselves from this fact is outright satanic, and your quotation of such a mind boggling statement of pure hypocrisy is only a revelaion of your thought and views.

[Pk_#2]

JazakAllaah khayr Qatada & Salman

Salman I think you're right, because he wouldn't approach someone knowledgeable to ask, it's always me, *ashamed* but it's the truth, he might actually know more than I!

And JazakAllaah Al-B.

[SilverLJ]

[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by salman

lol, come on Mr. Silver, get a hold of yourself

after his encounter with akhee boriqee, he really have lost his composure and now just picking straws here and there....this is a prime example of what pure sunnism can do.

Yes perhaps because your self-righteousness blinds you and as I have said before those who claim to know all the facts are walking examples of paranoia. I asked a simple question, "have Muslims in the name of Islam committed atrocities" and you cannot face up to that question but delude yourself by saying "it was not Islam"

[Abdul-Fattah]

Hi

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

[/COLOR]

Yes perhaps because your self-righteousness blinds you and as I have said before those who claim to know all the facts are walking examples of paranoia. I asked a simple question, "have Muslims in the name of Islam committed atrocities" and you cannot face up to that question but delude yourself by saying "it was not Islam"

I don't see why those two should be mutually exclusive. Yes muslims have commited atrocities in the name of Islam, and yes those things weren't Islamic. To make a clarification: A stalker can stalk somebody in the name of love, hurt somebody in the name of love, and even kill somebody in the name of love, but obviously that isn't love.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

Islam is the theoretical aspect and Muslims are the practical aspect. logically speaking the two are different. What you wish to have us adopt about Islam is almost as insane as someone proposing that murder is an acceptable idea in western thought merely on the basis that murder is mostly practiced on a general level in the west more so than in other places. Muslims, or anyone else for that matter, I do not think are that stupid to fall into such a trap as to accept the idea that the west accepts and tolerates murder simply on the basis that most murder that happens on earth comes from its own inhabitants.

Silver - a theory without practical verification is worthless, its a more or less interesting concept - either Islam works in general or it does not but don't hind behind sophistry here and pretend that often the outcome is as black as can be.

Of course. Ican give trillions of examples of various tyranical practices in the west, but you do not see us or anyone else for that matter suggest that these are inherent values of the west. We don;t stoop to such a low as you have done sir.

Silver - if there are trillions of examples then it shows and inherent sickness in the West and I can furnish you with "trillions" of examples of Islamic atrocities there are obviously therefore and logically tyrannical practices in Islam.

Firstly, when someone states "if its bad, then its not Islam" is not called in any language from a pragmatic standpoint as "turning your back on the isue". When soemone states "if it is bad then it is not Islam" then actualy, what they have done was they have disassociated that which is not Islam from that which is Islam. And from that point FORWARD, do they then tackle the issue, and they don't turn a blind eye to the issue as you have suggested. Bu I already know what you said "turning yout backs". The reason why you stated so is because the fact that Muslims do not behave as preposterous as you and come to the same preposterous conclusions as yourself thereby allowing you to condemn them by stating that they turn their backs because NOT turning our backs ENTAILS thwarting and trashing Islam and critiquing Islam itself. That would be as ludacrous as blaming christianity for the practices of Hitler.

Silver - your own words condemn you; if there is one thing that God hates it is self-righteousness, if one cannot look and see evil lurking at your door there is no hope for you, you are a blind guide leading those who are blind.

your right, it is a lie. Im glad muslims don't entertain this idea.

Silver - I think if you look through these posts with care that they do

if we were to suppose that your concocted reality was true (that we regard christianity as all evil) for arguments sake of course, then my reply would be that Jesus is NOT at all the centre of christiandom. Jesus and what he preached is in one vally, and what you and all christians believe is in another universe.

Silver - I was only quoting what this board gas said. If you cannot be bothered to read the post then we waste time

you pray to God while invoking the sentiments of a filthy secularist. ever heard of "ajeeb". truely, ajeeb

Silver - this is going to far, in the board we do not insult one another and I expect an apology for this gross insult of the term "filthy secularist".

thats fine and dandy, but there is one slight problem with that. every human is a visionary. everyone has a mode of thought and their ideal format for how society should be. The very fact that he professed these words only reveals the utter and inherent density of his hypocrisy. How dare a secularist such as Joseph to claim visionaries as the root of evil, while exempting him and his secular ilk of this very platform.

If "visionaryISM" is to be regarded as the ultimate evil, then what about a vision that a visionary envisions where he excludes his vision from the evil of other visionaries. If visionaries are the ultimate evil, then the secular visionaries are the root that has produced ultimate evils in every planet, in every system, in every galaxy, in every dimension anbd their evil is on top of evil for the simple fact that they don't accept their views as visionary in nature. The fact that they could exclude themselves from this fact is outright satanic, and your quotation of such a mind boggling statement of pure hypocrisy is only a revelaion of your thought and views.

I'm am sorry but I don't have a clue what these last two para are about

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

Hi

I don't see why those two should be mutually exclusive. Yes muslims have commited atrocities in the name of Islam, and yes those things weren't Islamic. To make a clarification: A stalker can stalk somebody in the name of love, hurt somebody in the name of love, and even kill somebody in the name of love, but obviously that isn't love.

We might be close to agreement that the practice of anything can be turned into hate including Islam or Christianity or ....

Now perhaps we can move on to ask are there things in Islam that lead to or encourage this kind of behaviour. I can suggest some areas to look at or you can or perhaps you feel that none are open to this charge?

[Abdul-Fattah]

Hi

Now perhaps we can move on to ask are there things in Islam that lead to or encourage this kind of behaviour. I can suggest some areas to look at or you can or perhaps you feel that none are open to this charge?

I don't think there is anything in Islam that leads to this behaviour. Like we agreed on, commiting atrocities in the name of Islam is un-islamic. So in effect you're asking wheter Islam leads to un-Islamic behaviour. That would be very odd of course.

But like I said, there are no such things that I know off. In fact, I consider this one of the proofs that Islam is the right religion, it is 100% consistent, the rules don't contradict themself. Something that leads to sin is in itself sinfull, something that leads to good behaviour is in itself good. There are no contradictions like you might find in other religions like: "you can look but you can't touch, or you can taste but you can't enjoy and so on..."

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

Hi

I don't think there is anything in Islam that leads to this behaviour. Like we agreed on, commiting atrocities in the name of Islam is un-islamic. So in effect you're asking wheter Islam leads to un-Islamic behaviour. That would be very odd of course.

But like I said, there are no such things that I know off. In fact, I consider this one of the proofs that Islam is the right religion, it is 100% consistent, the rules don't contradict themself. Something that leads to sin is in itself sinfull, something that leads to good behaviour is in itself good. There are no contradictions like you might find in other religions like: "you can look but you can't touch, or you can taste but you can't enjoy and so on..."

Interesting position to take. Christians would say that the law is good but that we have no chance of keeping it all and that is why God grace exercised through Jesus is needed. The law as stated in the Bible is almost always a moral one and there is little that one might regard as laws over practice.

Let us begin then with the role of Women in Islam and see if it is consistent and logical. Now I don't want to go wandering off into honour killings, mutilation etc. What we can focus on is the teachings not aberration that might occur because of them.

Firstly let me state my position and I also think it is the Christian one and without stretching the term too far a Western one. It is simply there is and never should be any discrimination. Logically, it is plain that a woman can in almost every sphere d what a man can do and vice versa so why does Islam discriminate?

[Abdul-Fattah]

HI

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

Interesting position to take. Christians would say that the law is good but that we have no chance of keeping it all and that is why God grace exercised through Jesus is needed. The law as stated in the Bible is almost always a moral one and there is little that one might regard as laws over practice.

I told you this many times before, please don't go off topic with comparative religion. This forum is for asking questions about Islam, not for comparing Islam against Christianity and defenitly not for trying to preach Christian views in-between questions.

Let us begin then with the role of Women in Islam and see if it is consistent and logical.

Do you mean, see if it's consistent or see if it's tolerant/intolerant?

Firstly let me state my position and I also think it is the Christian one and without stretching the term too far a Western one. It is simply there is and never should be any discrimination.

Agreed

Logically, it is plain that a woman can in almost every sphere d what a man can do and vice versa

Disagree, man and woman are very differently from a biological/ physiological /psychological point of view. (Didn't we have this conversation already? I seem to recall explaining you about stuff like hormones, and the distance between pupils causing panoramic or focussed view, I also seem to recall explaining you the difference between equality of value, and equality in rules, and why treating different people the same is a form of discrimination, and so on do we have to do that whole conversation again, or am I confused and was this somebody else?)

so why does Islam discriminate?

Simple answer: Islam does not discriminate.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

I told you this many times before, please don't go off topic with comparative religion. This forum is for asking questions about Islam, not for comparing Islam against Christianity and defenitly not for trying to preach Christian views in-between questions. [/COLOR]

Silver - I object to that, this is NOT off topic, its about tolerance and I was not preaching anything just setting out my initial position

Do you mean, see if it's consistent or see if it's tolerant/intolerant?

Silver - first you tell me I am off topic then you agree with me?? Yes, I meant is discrimination against women in Islam a tolerant positions and consistent with your claims that Islam is build on justice.

Disagree, man and woman are very differently from a biological/physiological /psychological point of view. (Didn't we have this conversation already? I seem to recall explaining you about stuff like hormones, and the distance between pupils causing panoramic or focussed view, I also seem to recall explaining you the difference between equality of value, and equality in rules, and why treating different people the same is a form of discrimination, and so on do we have to do that whole conversation again, or am I confused and was this somebody else?)

Simple answer: Islam does not discriminate.

Yes we touched on it in another thread. However, Islam DOES discriminate and to say otherwise is to me dishonest. Some examples: A man may marry up to 4 women a women is not equal in this respect. In law a woman's testimony does not carry the same weight as a man's.

Discriminate in the sense we are discussing means treat differently on some basis and here it is solely on the basis of sex and to say Islam does not do this is clearly not true?

In passing, there are many other areas of discrimination I would like to seek you view on because Islam unequivically does discriminate. But here I am simply asking, no matter what the reason, does Islam discriminate in the sense I have stated against women?