> A Man is more of a thinker, and a woman is more emotional. Is this something bad?

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

Selam aleykum, I don't think it's condescending or misogynistic to neutrally state that there are differences between men and woman. Is it also misogynistic to say that men have more muscles than woman? Or to say that men have more hair-production over their body? And of course, you will find among the population men who scarcely have these qualities, and you will find woman who have these qualities to a great extend, but those are exceptions. When studying the general population, these differences between men and woman are quite clear.

And there are actually many studies confirming this. These are just what I found after 5 minutes of google-ing the subject, the list goes on... :
1) How fetal testosterone influences the systematizing vs. empathy ratio (this one got my interest immediately since it discusses autism ^_^ )
SpringerLink - Book Chapter
2) Visual thinker vs. Symbolic thinker
Are There Differences between the Brains of Males and Females?
3) Structural differences in the brain
Male and Female Brains

May I make some comments here:

Firstly, it does not seem to be a rational way to engage in this discussion to cite a book which deals with Autism. (I will come to the other references later)

Secondly, thinking is a complex notion and is not just about logic but our emotions, sense of values and spirituality all play a part. It is usually assumed that there are only perhaps two ways of thinking: induction or drawing inferences from what we observes or deduction or one might say having a theory although some also talk about abduction which might be thought of as finding the best explanation of what we see.

Based on this I cannot see why a woman would be any less equipped as a rational person than a man. One might also say imagination is a very important driver and women can be as, if not more imaginative, than men. Consider, Einstein imagined relativity long before there was any evidence for it anywhere.

This is not to deny there are differences between men and women but I have never been able to detect on average there is any difference in rationality in the thousands of male and female students I have worked with. Indeed on this score I do not know of any University in the world that makes such a distinction in student selection standards for any subject.

However, the point at issue for me is when one states that women are in some way intellectually inferior and then uses that as part of a dogma that always ends up as discrimination or its outcome is misogynistic. So it is not discriminatory or misogynistic to see differences but it will or may become these if you then embed them in law or dogma.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

And there are actually many studies confirming this. These are just what I found after 5 minutes of google-ing the subject, the list goes on... :
1) How fetal testosterone influences the systematizing vs. empathy ratio (this one got my interest immediately since it discusses autism ^_^ )
SpringerLink - Book Chapter
2) Visual thinker vs. Symbolic thinker
Are There Differences between the Brains of Males and Females?
3) Structural differences in the brain
Male and Female Brains

Your third citation is also as far as I can see from a reputable source but it seems to me you may be reading into it more that is there. My I cite two sections from it:

Sex differences and the brain. What does it matter, you say? I think it does. Through such knowledge we will eventually be better able to understand the basis for behaviors that many now perceive as entirely rooted in social custom or familial history. From that understanding, we will gain the acceptance, patience, and respect so vital to all human endeavour.

Here you can see it talks about behaviours and has nothing to say on rationality or emotions. The paper ends by saying:

Needless to say, these data further emphasize the necessity of considering the numerous variables that contribute to anatomical and in turn physiological development generally and specifically to the growth of the cerebral cortex. Furthermore, wresting meaning from the multiplicity of similarities and differences between male and female brains presents a considerable challenge in the decades ahead, but a challenge that those of us who dedicate our professional lives to such research anticipate with relish.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by Abdul-Fattah

Yes it does, and yes it does. The empathizing–systemizing (E-S) theory seeks to classify people on the basis of their skills in two factors of empathizing and systemizing. It measures skills using as Empathy Quotient (EQ) and Systemizing Quotient (SQ). The E-S theory has been extended into the extreme male brain theory of autism, which hypothesizes that autism spectrum disorders are an extreme of the typical male profile. This theory divides people into 5 groups:

• Type E, whose empathy is significantly better than their systemizing.
• Type S, whose systemizing is significantly better than their empathy.
• Type B (for balanced), whose empathy is as good as their systemizing.
• Extreme Type E, whose empathy is above average but whose systemizing is challenged.
• Extreme Type S, whose systemizing is above average but whose empathy is challenged.

I cannot pretend to understand this theory but it was easy to find the following critical response to it in Wikipedia, the same source you used and one might note the part I have highlighted below.

The theory has been criticized on multiple grounds. Research in systemizing and empathizing in early life indicates that boys and girls develop in similar ways, casting considerable doubt on the theory of sex differences in these areas. A cognitive style that more naturally opposes empathizing is Machiavellianism, which emphasizes self-interest and which has been shown to be strongly correlated with competitiveness; evolutionary theory predicts that males will be more competitive than females. In contrast, research has generally shown a weak negative correlation between empathizing and systemizing. Another criticism is that original EQ and SQ, which form most of the research basis behind the notions of empathizing and systemizing, both clearly measure more than one factor, and that sex differences exist on only some of the factors.

I don't know your level of competence or qualifications but it does seem as if you are dipping into areas you do not fully understand and perhaps you should take your own advice on research.

[Abdul-Fattah]

Hi

Originally Posted by SilverLJ

May I make some comments here:
Firstly, it does not seem to be a rational way to engage in this discussion to cite a book which deals with Autism. (I will come to the other references later)

I strongly disagree. People with autism are sometimes seen as extreme male because they score high on systematic thinking and low on empathic thinking. If it is indeed true that these characteristics of people with autism are caused by testosterone, the male hormone, it logically follows that man have a higher inclination towards thinking systematic as opposed to woman having a high inclination towards thinking empathic. Of course an average men will not have it to the same amount as a person with autism, but still to a lesser degree.

Secondly, thinking is a complex notion and is not just about logic but our emotions,...

True, but that's completely besides the point here. Nobody here ever claimed otherwise.

Based on this I cannot see why a woman would be any less equipped as a rational person than a man.

We didn't claim woman are less equiped, we claimed they are differently equiped. Please don't fight the poor strawmen again, those little guys are so defenceless.

One might also say imagination is a very important driver and women can be as, if not more imaginative, than men. Consider, Einstein imagined relativity long before there was any evidence for it anywhere.

Again true, and second halve possibly true, but all besides the point.

This is not to deny there are differences between men and women but I have never been able to detect on average there is any difference in rationality in the thousands of male and female students I have worked with. Indeed on this score I do not know of any University in the world that makes such a distinction in student selection standards for any subject.

Of course not, can you imagine the uproar of the feminists movement if schools would do so? Woman are given equal opportunities in educational system of most countries. And I'm not saying that that is a bad thing. Test results don't give an accurate representation of this either as there are to many other factors to consider.

However, the point at issue for me is when one states that women are in some way intellectually inferior

Again with the strawmen. Nobody in this thread said that woman are inferior.

and then uses that as part of a dogma that always ends up as discrimination or its outcome is misogynistic.

Here we go again with the false claims of discrimination.

So it is not discriminatory or misogynistic to see differences but it will or may become these if you then embed them in law or dogma.

Not necesairly it doesn't. I countered that argument 3 times before, and deleted it a fourth time just a few days ago giving you yet another warning. Since this is the fifth time you play this hide and seek game I'm going to go ahead and give you a temporarly ban for one week.

I don't know your level of competence or qualifications but it does seem as if you are dipping into areas you do not fully understand and perhaps you should take your own advice on research.

Lol, all because of one vague quote from wiki contradicting me, you try to blow a canvas of doubt over me, and attack me on a personal level? Ok... whatever.

[salman]

ouch, ban for a weak maybe little too harsh on him. he waited for a month you know and knowing him I do not think this will make him stop repeating same stuff

[Abdul-Fattah]

Selam aleykum, be that as it may, I will not indulge in his intellectual hide and seek where he does not respond to pages of rebutals I posted against his arguments, but instead chooses to bring a slight variation of that argument in a different thread. Let's not forget that we did not want our forums cluttered with debates, and that we only allowed interreligious discussion on this forum, if it were with the genuine intention to learn; not if it is the poster's intention to preech his deviant vieuwpoints. In all honesty, for a moment I was even considering a permanent ban.