> Christian women absolute obedience to the husband VS The prophet (saw) comment on women.

[Umm Marwa Mustafa]

Salam,

The prophet Muhammed (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) said:

Ibn Maajah (1853) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Abi Awfa said: “When Mu’aadh came from Syria, he prostrated to the Prophet (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) who said, ‘What is this, O Mu’aadh?’ He said, ‘I went to Syria and saw them prostrating to their archbishops and patriarchs, and I wanted to do that for you.’ The Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said, ‘Do not do that. If I were to command anyone to prostrate to anyone other than Allaah, I would have commanded women to prostrate to their husbands.

Christians often isolate one event, or one particular statement without putting it in it's actual context. However if you notice this "prostration statement" is to emphasise how important it is for women to respect their husbands. (and this is mutual, just because the prophet (saw) has not specified it here it does not mean only women have to respect their husband[s].

And this is clear from the above because prostration does not necessitate worship. but, it's not permissible to bow to anything other than Allah.

I was thinking about this all night long and it makes sense to me. I actually really like the Hadith because of it's emphasise on respect (something that many people lack towards their partners).

Share relevant sources/comments on this please.

[salman]

Christian missionaries are just desperate and they will do anything to attack Islam even if it exposes their foolishness and lack of reasoning. In fact, this is how the propagators of falsehood work.

first thing we need to understand is that each spouse has rights over other spouse. However, the rights of husband over his wife are greater than her rights over him. This is how the ulama have understood from the text.

regarding this hadith, then as far as I know, this is not general, it is only specific and Allahu A'lam. Yes, the husband need to respect his wife and be kind to her. However, this hadith specifically addresses the women and tell them that they need to be obedient to their husbands and respect them greatly. Obviously, the obedience is in matters which do not violate the rights of Allah. The scholar of the ummah, Abdullah ibn Abbas (radiAlllahu anho) said in the tafsir of ayah 4:34: "she should obey him in matters of obedience that Allaah has enjoined upon her, and obey him by treating his family well and taking care of his wealth"

One of the main issues we are facing in our time is lack of discipline and obedience. This is all thanks to bunch of nonsense out there.

Is there something else you wanted to talk about sister?

and Allah knows best

[Umm Marwa Mustafa]

I don't think it's about obedience. Our texts are clear the women need to obey their husbands (in the limited sense). I think this hadith is about respect.

[salman]

yes, the hadith is about respecting the husband. However, in some cases respect and obedience work together. You respect other person by listening to him/her and submitting to his/her idea or whatever you wanna call it.

[TheBoxer]

Prostration before a king or anyone else is a sign of subservience.

A king would never prostrate before his subject. And in the case of an Islamic relationship, a man would never prostrate before his wife.

Some Christians may focus on that hadith, but not to prove a woman should worship her husband. No, what it shows is the complete subservience of a wife and her lower status.

I am obedient and respectful of the authority of law enforcement. I am not, however, subservient to them, and I would never prostrate before them. The fact of the matter is that the law enforcement authority actually SERVES me and my fellow citizens.

I'm not sure what else the Islamic scriptures say, but according to the Christian ones a man has the authoritative role in the family, but his wife is not subservient to him. Christians are instructed to submit to one another. It's about serving one another, not simply females serving men. Even the husband is to be a servant to his wife, just as the wife is to be a servant to her husband. Husbands are instructed to love their wives as their own bodies--a self-sacrificing love, in fact.

To say that if prostration were commanded it would be a wife to her husband is to insinuate the relationship between a king and his subject. This is not the type of relationship described in Christianity.

~TheBoxer

[Umm Sufyaan]

Prostration before a king or anyone else is a sign of subservience.

not necessarily. it's sign of respect too. (and no, i thought of this before i read everyone else's replies)...

I am obedient and respectful of the authority of law enforcement. I am not, however, subservient to them,

yes you are. you have to pay taxes.

and I would never prostrate before them.

no, but since they do so much good by (and for) you, you are going to have to respect them in one way or another.

No, what it shows is the complete subservience of a wife and her lower status.

believe it or not, he is subservient to her as well, so your point hold's no weight. and oh im in stitches, this is rich coming from a christian.
lets have some fun, shall we

"Like wise you wives, be in subjection to your own husbands". I Peter 3:1

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

"wives are to be obedient to their husbands." Titus 2:5.

“Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let wives be to their own husbands in everything” (Eph 5:24).

now, what is it that you see there people? subservience, subservience, subservience.

and even by your own words, you have proved that in a Christan marriage, a wife is subservient to her husband.

I'm not sure what else the Islamic scriptures say, but according to the Christian ones a man has the authoritative role in the family, but his wife is not subservient to him.

just how exactly is one NOT subservient to the one in authority. who are you kidding?

if you are going to be argumentative, the least you can do is go about it in a straight forward manner that makes sense. not one that is twisted to justify your extreme views and hatefulness.

[salman]

@theboxer

hahahaha, obedience does not mean subservient, right

our laugh is more than enough to refute your load of rubbish idiotic response. let some dictionary further bury you to ground:

subservient: compliant and obedient to authority
obedient: dutifully complying with the commands or instructions of those in authority

you got any more blunders in your bag?

Indeed the Lord of the worlds spoke haqq when He said in the Qur'an: "They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allâh's Light (with which Muhammad Sallah Allahu A'lihi Wa Sallam has been sent - Islâmic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allâh will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kâfirûn (disbelievers) hate (it)". [Surah Tawbah (9): 32 - interpretation of the meaning]

[TheBoxer]

Umm Sufyaan,
　
You wrote:

not necessarily. it's sign of respect too. (and no, i thought of this before i read everyone else's replies)...

But then why would a king NEVER prostrate before his subject, if prostration simply means respect? Why would a husband NEVER prostrate before his wife, if prostration simply means respect? Is not a husband supposed to respect his wife? Respect is shown through obedience and kind treatment. Prostration is never necessary to show respect. Prostration is something humans came up with to show subservience towards one another. Kings, emperors, etc. are positions created by men for positions of authority and mastership. Christ's relationship with his Church, and a man's relationship with his wife are not like these man-made concepts, because Christ is a servant to his Church, and a man is a servant to his wife, just as she is a servant to him. A Christian marriage is described in the light of Christ's relationship with his believers, which is not one of subservience but rather mutual servitude. In fact, Christ gave his life for his believers.

yes you are. you have to pay taxes.

Taxes are not a sign of subservience. Even police officers, judges, and legislators have to pay taxes. Taxes are how a country pays for the services it provides to its citizens.

no, but since they do so much good by (and for) you, you are going to have to respect them in one way or another.

I show respect by obeying the law and obeying police officers when they work to enforce the law. I do not prostrate before a police officer when they pull me over to give me a ticket. I do, however, pull over when they turn their lights on behind me, and I do not spit in their face when they give me a citation.

believe it or not, he is subservient to her as well, so your point hold's no weight. and oh im in stitches, this is rich coming from a christian.
lets have some fun, shall we

How is a Muslim man subservient to his wife? He is just required to financially support her. A father has to financially support his daughter, but he is not subservient to her. The government financially supports all sorts of poor people, but it is not subservient to them.

salman, pay attention to this part:

Submission is not subservience. Submission is an act of compliance to the authority of another. It does not mean one has to be subservient. Subservience is a subordinate place or function--obsequious servility. To be subordinate means to be inferior--placed in a lower class, rank, or position. Like I said, in Christianity there is no subservience between human beings. There is only submission. (The two words are not interchangeable.)

I Peter 3 also describes wives as partners and heirs with their husbands, so obviously this is not about subservience. It is about submission.
　
Ephesians 5 states that Christians should submit to one another out of reverence for Christ, and that a wife submit to her husband. It also states that a man and wife become one flesh, and a man should love his wife as he loves his own body. This does not indicate a subservient state of being of the wife. This indicates her equality in the eyes of God.

Titus 2 speaks about good behavior. It does not mean a wife must be subservient--in a lower position.

There is no "higher" or "lower" in a marriage. There is mutual love, respect, and servitude, and one partner is in an authoritative position. But authority does not necessarily indicate a higher rank or value. Women are never referred to as "lower". Women are not put into a subservient position to men. Women are not less valuable or less worthy than men. The witness of a woman is equal to a man's. A woman does not annul prayer. Women are not a step below men. Women are not less intelligent than men. Women are not a tilth for their husbands. Women should not be used by their husbands to slake the lust he feels for another woman. Evil omens are not in women. Women are not harmful afflictions to men. God did not give men "rights" over women. God did not put a husband in an authoritative role because He made men to excel over women. Men do not have the right to divorce their wives except for marital unfaithfulness. Men do not have the right to beat their wives.

The relationship between men and women in Islam is one of ownership--master and slave, king and subject, man and beast.

The relationship between men and women in Christianity is one of mutual love, respect, and servitude. And within a marriage, a husband holds the authoritative role with his wife as partner and heir of the gift of life.

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:27-29)

~TheBoxer

---------- Post added at 12:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 PM ----------

P.S. A person can be subservient and yet not submissive, such as a rebellious slave. And a person can be submissive and yet not subservient, such as a wife with her husband.

[SilverLJ]

Originally Posted by salman

hahahaha, obedience does not mean subservient, right

our laugh is more than enough to refute your load of rubbish idiotic response. let some dictionary further bury you to ground:
subservient: compliant and obedient to authority
obedient: dutifully complying with the commands or instructions of those in authority you got any more blunders in your bag?

Just to be clear here subservient can mean helpful but it can also mean abject submissiveness or if you like having the character of a slave or servile. Obedience is more or less as you say but it can also lean towards being docile on manipulable.

In the Christian sense relationships are about duty but they are founded on love, mutual love and out of that comes respect and when necessary obedience there is no sense it is about authority and lawful commands. Perhaps you can give us a hadith that has this same sentiment regarding love as a foundation principle of relationships?

** Off topic removed **

[amar_labedi]

Mashallah very beautiful reminder